IndiraLightfoot

It's just food for thought - I'm not naïve. I do realize, however, that they are still searching for solutions - and clearly, they do indeed go for new and intrepid solutions. I just compare stuff to CRPGs that are out there or will be. If we would care about biases and shy away from stuff that are dividing the community in the forums, then we wouldn't have any discussions here at all almost. I'm simply looking for solutions, and they needn't all be from the IE classics. That last sentence doesn't make sense. I already love PoE, and I am a big fan of OE. Let's say that I'm a concerned fan who isn't afraid of criticising stuff that don't seem to work (IMO, of course). Also, most of the games I cite I haven't enjoyed that much or I haven't even played them yet (they haven't been released). I'm just cherry-picking examples, mechanics and patterns as food for discussion and debate, like in any search for solutions, really.

Nice sum-up, Sensuki! I feel the need to add one thing, though: I reckon you're actually more IE canon than me. I am pretty open to having PoE venturing into new territories, and hence it makes sense for me to compare it to all sorts of games, and not just with how it was done in our beloved IE games. It is, like you said, new territory, a new world, a new system, no longer D&D, so I am all for experimentation and stealing from other game designs, as long as it is good and work well for a party-based RTwP CRPG.

Heh! You're right that I do offer some bizarre-comparisons at times. However, the reasons for them are varied. The T:ToN xp system was more of an act of desperation - and a will to shake stuff up a bit- because of the locked positions and of my frustration of not having an IE-like xp system in PoE. So, I went the other route instead: heavy RPG-ist, with openings for justifying discovery xp and such. DA2 was something I got a link for over at the Codex, and it immediately dawned on me that the signs of DA2 being rushed listed there actually fit PoE BB - that it had been rushed too. That stuff hadn't been thoroughly tested or thought-through. WL2 is more me waving a reality check: This uses the same kind of budget, the same kind of Unity build (all 3D, though) - and it shows that you don't need to over-complicate stuff to get a really good incline party-based CRPG. Finally, in this case, I find that DA:I actually has an optional feature (tactical view) that's more BG-IE-correct and even updated for 2014 than PoE BB, which is a bit unfortunate, since this is where PoE needs to excel. However, when it comes to comparisons to the real McCoy, I'm safe in the knowledge that you do that stuff thoroughly and excellently. I simply rotate stuff, offer new angles, and other perspectives in order to get a few glittering flakes in the pan - rare ideas that PoE will benefit from in the long run. So, I stir up food for thought and debate, and sometimes it actually works too.

Hi! Having watched some vids from the upcoming party-based CRPG Dragon Age: Inquisition, I have been pleasantly surprised by the high level of nice and clear feedback when you use what's called tactical view (basically a more top-down, BG-like combat system, RTwP). In this game, combat goes on in RT as well, and it's wild and messy to say the least, with all the spell effects, oomphy weapon attacks, etc. Still, they have marker circles on all characters, and they do have good feedback for the tumultuous event that combat is. For example: -Clear symbols by char portrait is shown for the present action taken by that character (like in BG:EE) -When you hover over an enemy, you get info about it (even about potential weaknesses and strengths - I don't know if this Is Lore-based or something. If not that's the kind of stuff I'd like Lore to be about), and also, you see which character is targeting it -Press "A" or some remapped key with that function, then you get to see all characters targeting that enemy -You can queue up actions -You can set melee characters in Hold Your Ground modes - and there are other tactical modes like it, for instance, ranged weapon chars will fall back if attacked and try to fire the bow -You can only have eight active abilities on your combat bar (kind of like D3's six abilities) -You can even opt to have friendly fire on, but they warn you - it will be difficult -Health, defensive barriers, if your character is heavily damaged (portrait changes) -Feedback about enemies changing states - for instance, going berserk or transforming into beasts - are cued via enemy model animations, so you get to perceive when such animations set in via these visible cues (like in COH2, you can see when a unit is about to throw a grenade, e.g.) I urge OE to take a look at those gameplay videos and then vow to surpass that feedback info, since I believe that PoE simply must outdo DA:I in this kind of party-based combat feedback. We can't have DA:I combat feedback > PoE combat feedback. Surely, for OE, the ambition must be to make PoE into a game that owns party-based combat feedback and kills other games in that department. Who's with me? EDIT: Since it's all in 3D, you obviously can rotate the cam the way you need. Bioware even encourages you to do so when using tactical view in order to get the best possible overview of where enemies are and the terrain and such (which also matters to a degree). PoE can't have 3D rotation, and terrain will not matter, so it's already at a disadvantage. Therefore, having the right angle and non-occlusion marker circles/char-enemy models is paramount for combat feedback. I think it was Hiro who wrote in the What can PoE learn from WL2-thread that he soon came to appreciate the possibility to rotate the camera in combat, and this is in a turn-based game. I'd like to chime in and agree with him - it actually helps a lot. Knowing that PoE lacks this feature, this calls for some very sleek and sure-shot solution to combat overview feedback. OE needs to nail this aspect of combat somehow.

Heh! Although it would be nice doing some weird LARP-cosplay combo in some nearby neck of woods, this was actually a typo. I meant "RT".

Interesting post. I must say that athletics is a bit dorky and superfluous. When you venture up that cliff, trying to reach that egg, I'd much rather have the attributes decide my success, not some convoluted athletics-skill. For instance, check my character's dex, con and will power, instead.

Caladian: I'm not sure killing off all baddies on maps is degenerative gameplay. Rather, it's typical behaviour for many of us that have a bit of OCD about walking on each tile in M&M, or removing all fog of war, or just kill off every hostile critter in an area. Your post, however, implicitly carries the solution to this divide between kill-xp and quest-xp, if I simplify it grossly, and that's this: -Dish out very small xp rewards per hostile creature. Same thing for locks, disarmed traps, crafting. I mean, quite small. On occasion, by using the already existing monster challenge level in PoE, have a slightly raised reward for taking on challenging baddies (still low xp). Then, finally, and most importantly, let the subquest and quest cp be the big xp boys on the block. Pace the xp via those rewards. Do this, and we will finally have peace among the PoE fans on the xp system issue.

Bruce: Thank you! Bear in mind, however, that my reviews of games just before or like 2-3 hours in tend to be bloated and overly excited, since I easily get swept away by the novelty and the superficial coolness of it all. My best reviews are those I've done after like at least 6-7 hours plus, and when I've had the time to sleep on things, hehe.

BruceVC: I was very sceptical at the start - mostly due to DA2, but now I am excited about this. If they can pull all this stuff off, they have a blockbuster at their hands and a CRPG classic that you can get back and play over and over. EDIT: To me, it looks so promising that I'll have to stomach Origin. I have even prepped my pc and downloaded the thing already, just to let my computer get acquainted with that atrocity.

It's almost too good to be true for a CRPG fan: -Pick between first-person perspective or classic tactical view, and this seamlessly -Huge open world maps -Absourd amounts of story, dialogue and general background/atmosphere-overload -Combat with oomph in hews, missile hits and spell effects -A PC -adapted UI with nice quick bars and lots of stuff that's toggable -Remappable keys -Power points that let you open up the adventure the way you want -Be the good guy or be at least pretty horrific, without all-in evil, join-the-games-baddies corrupted -Befriend your party members, only hints and pointers as to approval and disapproval (no more +5, -10) -Go ahead, do some lovey-dovey stuff in a tower in your stronghold -Customize your character in ridiculously unique detail -Play most stuff in RL or make it almost turn-based via tactical mode -No real level-scaling except for plot-line (and that comes in level ranges) -Monsters, baddies and animals (hunting for crafting) may respawn in areas when it makes sense -Kill a dragon in an area, and people think you are a hero (it won't respawn, unlike Skyrim) -You get a stronghold later on, which you can customize the looks of, depending on race and preferences - It's an "Eagles Nest"-castle, not a Skyrim lodge -Revisit places from DA:O and DA2 -Via the DA Keep app - re-spec the background of your DA history the way you want to (perfect after several playthroughs) -A wonderful war room - send NPCs on cool little missions, like in Incredible Adventures of van Helsing 2 -Pre-buff if you want to -You can kite, you can scout, you can withdraw from combat -Respec via some weird currency -Customize your items, craft away -Walk, perma-run or perma-jump, or break-neck back-flip, if you feel like it -Like in a RTS like COH2, some enemies have abilities that you get a cue about when they kick in by watching their animations -"Want some ARPG to go with that? Sure. Have a nice day." It seems you can be everything but a dwarven mage!

This is not a brand-new vid. It's from Sep 29, but as it is devs playing, and in an entirely different area - Valsammar - I reckon some of you will find it enlightening, at least I did. In it, among other things, you get pro-tips on how to use the tactical view, it's very neat. Also, they indulge you with plenty of 2H-swordplay, as well as the basics of the game and what differs from DA:O and DA2. For instance, permanent injuries have been removed, and you can cast all spells outside of aggro/combat. However, prebuffing needs to be done with some strategy in mind, else it will just quickly dwindle. I love this power system that let you open up the map the way you want. It will make for some immense replayability. Moreover, I dig how potions are few and restricting in how far you can press on. And please, take note of how hard a level 8 group of enemies is to a level 7 party. We also get to see a baddie go beserk!

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I reckon I recognize your avatar name from the BG:EE and even the NWN2 forums? Regardless, you seem to be a devout fan of D&D and CRPGs, no doubt. And I do agree that playing gimped PCs and parties are pretty fun, and no reload playthroughs too. The upcoming Ironman Mode sounds exciting. I did another game in that mode recently (Unrest) - and it always feels intense - it keeps you on your toes. My stance is that I don't care if people do such things - I don't even bother to label such approaches to a game in any derogative fashion. Let people do what they want. All I know is this: It's very easy to destroy a good game by exploring a loophole, and then all the fun of it goes out the window. Heck, I played my second playthrough in Skyrim, and then I decided to use crafting, after all. It wrecked the game IMHO. All challenge was gone far too early in the game.

Tsk, tsk. I knew it! Non-kill xp proponents are the ones who abuse systems and farm xp systematically. I have played BG dozens of times, even munchkin-ly, and I've never done that kind of thing. Are you subconsciously urging OE to have quest-xp only just because of your lacking self-control?

All of them are nice, but I have a soft spot for Nils Hamm's art.

Nice find! Wow! That's almost on par with WL2. What the hell happened?

They will reach the goal! We just have to up our pledges a little more, with an add-on or so. Well, Hiro excepted, I reckon, with his humongous upped pledge... And the more I get to read about the weird areas, the stories behind them, the creatures, the mechanics, I'm getting pumped and amped and just chuffed to bits! @Hiro: A heartfelt thanks for helping make a game that I and thousands of others really, really look forward to.

Me too, and yeah, I agree. I like that water-colour-look. I also like that the clans will have little stories unfolding and such - yet another 4X game with some RPG-lite to it.

I didn't opt in for any physical rewards, but I'd like to say that a Pillars of Eternity d20-die would be far cooler than a flabby notepad that will get bent and twisted in the mail, anyways. Long-lasting and durable FTW!

As I like xp overall, and voted yes to all in that other poll, I had to stay true to form and vote yes. I do agree, though, that it's very weird to include lock pick and trap disarm xp out of all things, when encounter xp, or even convo xp, sneak xp, crafting xp and kill xp, would have been more logical - since these much better reflect what the game is about. I know the devs at one time said that they don't want to reward "body count". Perhaps I'm daft, but isn't those bestiary xp a body count if there ever was one? And since when did chest count and spring mechanism count outweigh body count in a CRPG?

Gorth: Those two games are two of my favourites in recent years! Dishonored was completely unexpected. I tried Assassin's Creed, but didn't care for it, but this game just fit my mood/mentality, as well as my rogue-ish playstyle like a glove. One of the best games past the year 2000! As for D:OS, I've only played the starting area, and it is very well polished. However, I've heard that the rest isn't up to bar with Cyseal. I'll see how it goes.

Tale: Nice to see Dragonfall getting nice reviews. I have yet to get around to it. SRR was decent enough, so eventually I will.

I'm actually guilty of playing Grimrock 1 for like 12 hours, and then giving up in frustration. In fact, it was such an ugly divorce that I most likely won't pick up GR2. The reason for this was not the puzzles - most of them were pretty fun. Instead it was the realtime combat, and above all, puzzles with weird time limits that required save-spamming to solve them. At one time I even had to resort to some GR1 wiki to see how it even would be possible. I just detested that. Imagine stepping around super-quick with the arrow-keys in the right order just to get into a pit right on time. It felt like playing Dragon Lair! I came to the conclusion that the game was more frustrating than fun, as opposed to say Tesla Effect, where the puzzle complexity was just right.

Malc: Banished! Thx for reminding me. I actually bought it, but never got around to play it. Another 2014 game on my backlog. Gorth: Trine 1 & 2 are truly little gems of joy! As for the M&M series. I played almost all of them long ago. The atmosphere in them back then was usually pretty great - and some of that atmosphere is still intact in M&M X. So, it was mainly a nostalgia trip for me, but still a worthwhile game in its own right. Once you get to it, WL2 will most likely be your cup of tea.

Gorth: That's almost the norm. If you, like me, try out plenty of nice AAA-ish PC games at around release, the risk of you sitting there two or three hours later, upset/frustrated and slightly regretful is still too high for my liking at least - and I am pretty easily entertained. Thief was one such moment for me this year, but otherwise I've stuck to slightly safer bets, personally. Indie games, Kickstarter games, as well as games that appeal to two of my PC-games addiction: 4X-games and ARPGs - slow or quick. Out of all the games I've played this year, I have the feeling that you ought to like Wasteland 2 the most. Perhaps also M&M X - although it's more like a slomo party-based ARPG. Have you played any of these two?

I've finished yet another game released in 2014, one that I supported over at Kickstarter: Unrest. It didn't even last 7 hours, but it was well written, with interesting twists and turns. It was choices, choice, choices. I played it in Ironman Mode, with only one save. The graphics were competent enough for such a simple adventure/story game. The setting felt very fresh and fleshed out. It ended pretty nicely for me. The usurpor is going down right here, and the young queen enforces his removal, peacefully enough. Unrest: Hookability: 54 Lastability: 65 Entertainment value: 71 This gives it an average overall score of 63.3.