Jojobobo

Thanks for the response, and yeah I guess I should have thrown in I knew about Aloth and the Leaden Key, but that's the first I'd heard of the Grieving Mother. Still, neither of those are heavy on the setting of the region - we only learn about the importance of the Leaden Key through the story so Aloth being a member doesn't enrich the backstory so much. Still, any added info would be appreciated.

I think it's weird people vote no on questions like this, as all it is doing is enabling more options as opposed to blocking them off (and they made Chanter Invocations affect them recently, the Cipher situation is perfectly analogous). However people needlessly do vote contrarily, and then quite possibly when trying to present the case to the devs the more or less 50-50 vote doesn't look convincing. I did a similar poll for adventures being completable on solo (renting people out, or whatever, to complete), and still there was a large no vote - which is stupid as it only effects solo play in the first place so most people who voted no weren't even affected by the result. I think they were asking me to make solo easier, which isn't the case as there really isn't any items that could be considered more overpowered than the current set available in solo - they just provide more options. What I'm getting to is, polls suck, and the fact this has 4 no votes is ridiculous. This is a solid idea, and though this was never meant to be a solo game people clearly like to play that way (like me) so it makes no sense to deny the option. To give the option cost (a dedicated ability) as Boeroer mentioned is an even better idea.

The OP didn't articulate himself well and so it's hard to get on board with him, but I have to agree I found the Abbey of the Fallen Moon pretty crappy. I was soloing upscaled on PotD, however even with a party I don't think I would have enjoyed the (I want to say) 15ish Monk encounters where they all have sky high stats and are a complete chore to deal with - and they're all pretty much the same invariant encounter (and yes you can just ignore the combat by choosing social options, but who wants to wimp out like that?). I didn't even find the High Abbot the hardest, it was just the encounters that had many more of those damn monks. I get the feeling that some abilities that no one actually takes, like Rooting Pain and (though to a lesser extent as it's actually useful if you can squeeze it in) Stunning Blow, were made just so the enemies could have them and make your life more miserable. Overall, it's just a sea of the same fight over and over again, and I outwardly groaned when I got to Caryon's Scar and thought I'd be free of it only to get a few more of the same encounters yet again. If you can do one of these encounters you can do them all, but the repetition truly sucks and it becomes more of an endurance of what you're willing to sit through to get through the game. They don't even offer intriguing difficulty, such as improved AI, just unpleasantly high stats to wade through one at a time. It took me about a week to get through the Abbey, not due to time constraints, but because the encounters were so tedious and yet also very involved and repetitive that I did one or two a day and then couldn't face the exactly same crap again - even when they didn't actually take very long to complete. And I know, I was solo PotD, but I defy anyone to tell me they had a "fun" time here in the game when there's so many groups that offer the exact same challenge. Even if you found the mobs easy with a full group, it's the exact same thing over and over, it's so dull. But yeah after that I pretty much liked all the other encounters and boss fights, I stored them all up until after WM part II and really enjoyed their varied challenges. The Abbey of the Fallen Moon however - boooo!

Well she is easy to miss... almost half a person...

I guess if I'm going for a true tank build Battle-Forged is a little at odds with that (in that I'm trying to keep my defences sky high and my health for the most part up), so I'll probably stick with normal Retaliation even if the damage is significantly worse (or possibly I won't bother with Retaliation at all now). I'd say Enervating Blows would work, but I'm too lazy to test, and besides I don't really have room for it with what I have in mind. With what you said about Torment's Reach proc-ing on crit effects, with Enervating Blows it would seem that would make them an even better stun-locker than a Barbarian in some ways (with Weakened being much better than Sickened). They also wouldn't have the accuracy penalties of Carnage, and you could give them the Executioner's Hood to keep them all constantly Frightened with the Will debuff.

How does normal Retaliation compare? On my current Monk build I'm going much more tanky so I wanted to go Wild Orlan again, especially as the helmet slot adds more to defences (and you can go for Garodh's Chorus Retaliation)?

Yes it adds to both Chants and Invocations. I think it applies to pretty much everything, but I obviously haven't tested "pretty much everything". It has added value on a Chanter given they have summons as well. You would take a Weapon Focus over it if you also were using a Paladin, but otherwise I would never take a Weapon Focus instead on a Chanter. You might want to take a Weapon Focus in addition for even more weapon accuracy, but if you're pushed for talents Gallant's Focus is way better on a Chanter. I also like it as it makes you feel less shoehorned into just one weapon category on the other classes.

Though Battle-Forged is definitely a major perk to this build, using Zahua means you can dedicate you head slot to something like Retaliation Garodh's Chorus to achieve similar effects. Overall it should work pretty similarly.

I think there's a general problem with these kind of effects to be honest, for example if you Charm an enemy and you have a Paladin aura active (or Gallant's Focus) those benefits will persist with the enemy after they switch sides again. I never bothered to mention it as it seemed more like a minor annoyance, however it seems like your issue is a much worse and noteworthy manifestation of the same problem.

So I've only ever played the game solo so far, apart from my very first run which I didn't get close to finishing. However from what I've read, and rather weirdly, it seems there's a whole truckload of setting information packed into the companions' storylines. I'll probably play with the story companions at some stage, but I'm still interested now in getting a bit of a run down while I'm enjoying playing solo. From what I've heard, things that companions reveal are: Eothas in the form Waidwen knew that Woedica and the Leaden Key were up to something, so the invasion of the Dyrwood was to try and knock that on the head (from Eder's stuff?). However, Magran blew him up as she wanted for some reason to demonstrate that gods could die (from Durance's stuff?) for reasons I'm not all too clear on - perhaps keeping the secret that the gods were manmade under wraps (though I'm not entirely sure why fighting the Leaden Key would have necessarily demonstrated that) or because gods aren't supposed to interfere in mortal affairs? If anyone could care to elaborate on these mentions I'd be pretty interested, as it's hard to find the concrete facts easily. It seems a bit presumptuous to think that people, even if they are okay with taking on companions, would want to necessarily ever take on Eder and Durance - so I'm not too convinced on the design choice to have so much backstory crammed into two companions. On unrelated points, but things the game has left me questioning anyway that I don't want to dedicate a whole thread to: What the hell is the Leaden Key for? I don't mean the organisation itself, I mean the physical Leaden Key you get in the catacombs for killing the Acolyte? I never saw any use for it, even in Sun and Shadow. How "dead" is Eothas? Obviously Abydon "died", but he seems fine and dandy now? Is there any official line on this (that's perhaps clearer with companions piecing in important info), or are we just supposed to speculate that gods take time to come back from the Wheel or that perhaps the Godhammer Bomb obliterated Eothas's soul (assuming gods also have souls seeing as they're made from them) in a way that a big juicy moon couldn't for Abydon? I guess that could be why Abydon forgot so much on his death, as his soul had fragmented slightly. Thanks in advance for entertaining my annoying questions that I could probably just answer myself if I played the game like a regular person with a party.

I really can't imagine you'd be playing the same character in PoE2, few RPG games adopt that kind of continuity because each character people play usually has a different temperament and it would require save checking and the like from the previous game to keep it consistent. Plus not everyone who plays PoE2 will have played PoE1, especially if Tyranny broadens the fan base. If there is going to be a mention of the PoE1 protagonist, then they'll likely just refer to the Watcher of Caed Nua rather than have them in the game - so in that case you might have some of their exploits from the expansions spoiled for you. They may not even want the player as a Watcher in PoE2, they could be special in a different way or perhaps not even special at all - it's not like you're playing a Dovahkiin in every TES game. In terms of the events of White March, I could see some of them getting a mention. Without really giving much away, the outcome of Durgan's Battery itself might get a mention and also in the second half the Aedyr Empire and Dyrwood butt heads a little again - but I'd be pretty surprised if the specifics surrounding the WM part II ending were really delved into. What I'm trying to say is, no I wouldn't worry about it.

Maybe someone with the Beta should check if this is the case? It does seem like the problems are related (stuff proc-ing when it shouldn't - Torment's Reach itself or the weapon effects) so hopefully the fix treats all these issues as one. I'm a lowly GoG using worm unfortunately so I can't check myself.

It means very little, it just stops Torment's Reach being rather stupidly overpowered and makes it regular powered (which is still pretty damn powerful). The extra crush damage is still applied to everyone in the cone, but if I'm understanding the bug correctly each one of those guys won't then produce their own cone behind them (so if you have three guys in a row currently, the first is hit by regular Torment's Reach as is the second, but the second also produces his own cone, so the third is hit by both the first and second cone and so takes stupid damage. If there's a forth guy, he's in for a world of hurt, and so on). Overall it changes nothing, either to this build or to the class, apart from making Torment's Reach less of an instant win button with high Int. I'm currently playing an Int 3 Monk (which I think is okay with the bug in the current patch as the shenanigans are kept fairly minimal at that level of Int, but if it gets out of hand I'll stop using it until the fix) and it works just fine. With this build in particular, Retaliation is such as integral part (people hitting you take a crap load of damage) that this build I doubt would much feel the pinch as Torment's Reach is just a small part of what the build does. I also wouldn't say it's strictly a nerf either, just making the mechanics work as they intended they should, which was always pretty strong. This patch from what I can tell seems to be fixing a lot of related problems, I'd wager to say bash proc-ing additional times with Carnage is more or less the same problem.

I don't see it as an argument, just discussing the different ideas of what goes into class building and what potentially can and can't be rewarding to play for me personally. As mentioned if you want to do it purely from a roleplaying perspective than that's fine, but as I mentioned I like to do things from a roleplaying perspective as well as have them more or less ideally suited to a build type. You should also try for high Dex so you get your arrows and spells out faster. If you're really keen on min-maxing, you can dump Con and Res and put all the points into the other attributes - so long as you keep them at a distance you'll be fine (besides Arcane Veil can also shore up your weak deflection so you don't die at a distance, and with high Per and Dex your reflex save will be good anyway). Wood Elf is a very natural pick for both an archer and a wizard because of the racial ranged bonus.

I think I was mainly drawing the comparison because Blast is a Carnage-like effect, if you have access to a Carnage-like effect then actively forgoing it can be perceived to be gimping it a little. But you're right, Carnage is much more innate and integral to a Barbarian than Blast is to a Wizard (obviously it isn't innate at all, as it's an option you have to pick). As I mentioned in terms of class advantages, a melee Wizard is drawing on some of the class's advantages that are relevant to that kind of build (Citzal's Martial Power, probably the summoned weapons, DAoM etc.). No build needs to try and draw on all the class's advantages as you expect some specialisation, and a ranged wizard compared to a melee Wizard can be considered different archetypes - so saying they don't take Blast is kind of irrelevant as it falls outside the purview of what you were attempting in the first place (a melee, not ranged, Wizard). If we're talking about the ranged weapon archetype, then yes there is now an advantage you're ignoring in order to use a bow or firearm - so that's why it's different to a melee build not taking Blast. These both sound like fun builds actually, though I'd still say the firearms build is worse than Envenomed Strikes Blast. The Arcane Archer sounds pretty cool, but the niche is quite different to an AoE blaster build. I guess as Slack83er never mentioned a specific niche he was after, it'd probably be a good pick. I also never mentioned that a bow Wizard was terrible, just that a firearms WIzard wasn't a great idea. I think things got a little scrambled in that you mentioned an archer, but I was referring back to the original question in the first post about a firearms Wizard. Slack83er seemed to take that to mean I thought bows on a Wizard were bad, which I never said, just that you have to wait a while for the Blackbow. My point wasn't really about ease of play or minimising risk so much, it's about doing a certain thing well. The build is interesting in that its Dragon Thrashed chants are more effective (they hit and crit more often, and so overlap better), but it somewhat compromises your defences. Overall, it's a bit of a dead heat when comparing it to other Chanters and really depends on what you're after - the "most survivable solo Chanter build" it isn't, but a case could be made for "most effective solo user of the Dragon Thrashed". It also matters how you define what you were looking for in a build, so if the concept is "a good firearms build that uses only guns" then it does that a lot better (potentially the best) out of all the other classes as it marries the class advantages to the weapon choice in a manner that seemingly out-performs what is offer by using guns with a different class (at least in terms of continuing usage of the gun, not burst damage with an arquebus - but again the goals between these two ideas are a bit different). In that way its carved out a unique niche and a reason why people would want to play it. Another example I guess is that a high burst damage Rogue is high risk, however it can do unrivalled single target damage - so it serves a particular interesting function if that's what you're looking for. Doing one thing extremely well is interesting, doing the same thing less well (a firearms Wizard compared to a implements Wizard in terms of it serving as a ranged combatant with a focus on weapon, not spell, damage) to me is less interesting - it doesn't offer anything unique in terms of what it's doing and it's doing a poorer job than an analogous build.

I never said it wouldn't work, just that it wouldn't work half as well as an implement - it's like playing a Barbarian and using ranged so that you actively avoid the inherent advantage of Carnage. A ranged Barbarian technically works, as things like Frenzy and Blood Lust/Thirst still apply, but it the end it feels a bit like what's the point? I'm all for unique and outlandish builds, but when you're playing something that's a significant departure to what could ever be considered the optimum it kind of feels like you're hamstringing yourself for no reason. For the Gunslinger build I posted up there certainly will be tankier, easier or more damaging ways to build a Chanter, but when it comes down to it the "optimum" for a Chanter is any build with the Dragon Thrashed - and the build has that while having an option that synergises well with it. It's an example of doing something different in a way that works well with the natural advantages, and a natural advantage considering a Wizard is using Blast with implements. If you're set on roleplaying a certain build for the flavour then fine, but personally I never roleplay builds that are a large departure and don't have good synergy with a class's underlying concepts - I can just as easily roleplay with a stronger build. Boeroer's Chillfog build works around the Dragon Thrashed necessarily being the optimum by finding a quick way to access Seven Nights, but it's again playing to a strong class advantage. Further, though the Blackbow idea is fine, it is a level 8 spell - so you're going to be waiting a load of time (to level 15) to even access it. As I mentioned, build what you like for story purposes, nothing won't "work" in this game and anything is more or less viable as a specialisation - but some of the time it can be a little fruitless.

You should maybe be making one thread for all the ideas you have, and start asking questions in there. Many diffuse threads to resolve your ideas around diffuse concepts seems a bit involved - you could try and make the thread about custom builds for thematic reasons where anyone can ask questions and contribute. This would also serve a lot of people in the community who are in the same boat as you. To answer your question, firearms Wizards are stupid and minimal research could have answered that. Sure you can make a firearms Wizard, but they are so heavily built towards implements that the idea is strongly inferior to a large degree. While firearms have higher base damage, the reload is very cumbersome and won't hit in a group like a Blast implement (while maintaining similar levels of DR) so what's the point? For a ranged Wizard, you could take Rod of the Pale Shades and use them in a similar way to a CC Barbarian - keeping ACC as high as possible in order to get crits and therefore Stun at range. Blast can also apply various effects in AoE, which you can search for yourself. But yes, literally anything is possible on PotD with a party in tow - so build what you like and if you think it's worthy of a class build (as in it measures up to the existing ones, or offers a distinctly different play style after your testing) then post one up. Firearms on a Wizard is, as I mentioned, an inherently flawed concept.

I updated this bad boy with strategies for all the final boss fights, so you can now consider the build totally complete. It's my first and only completion of the game so far! Now that I've finished the endgame (with the first post I'd played up to Abbey of the Fallen Moon and hadn't completed any of the dragons, the Kraken or Concelhaut) I've got a bit of a better awareness of the strengths and weaknesses, so I'll sum them up. If you also look in the Adra/Alpine Dragon guide bit, there's also a decent rundown of buffing which I described a little lazily beforehand in terms of tackling the bosses. Strengths: Weaknesses: In terms of the Top 10 Toughest Fights for the build from hardest to easiest, I'd say it's: In terms of party play, one thing that might be fun to do with the build is pair it to a Chanter tank with Crossed Patch. The tank uses Dragon Thrashed and casts Bride and Brideman on gunner, allowing for the much more effective chaining of blind - particularly if you opt for Sure-Handed Ila on the gunner over more Dragon Thrashed. Something to think about anyway, should be a fun way to use the Gunslinger if you're not opposed to using two Chanters instead of one. I think that's about all there is left to say about the build, hopefully now with this added discussion and talk of the boss fights the picture behind it is much more detailed. Now, onto another solo build!

Boring is a state of mind, if you're only going to find high micro-management classes interesting than a Chanter isn't likely for you. You can of course increase their micro-management as others have mentioned by making them your go-to lore guy (which I'd strongly recommend, Chanter's high Int synergises fantastically with a lot of scrolls), but you're never going to get a diametric shift from that archetype. There's plenty of other classes with low micro, and plenty of others with high micro. If that's your chief concern play a few and get a feel, then commit. I find Chanters, despite not being incredibly high micro, very enjoyable as they do what they do well so I think there's a lot to appreciate there. On the flip side, I would never be put off a much higher micro class (e.g. a Wizard or Priest) or a much lower micro class (probably Paladins and Fighters) so maybe I'm not the best to be giving advice.

In practice, I've found that Dex in the 22 region with little to no armour (Durgan-reinforced padded or robes for example) still gives exceptionally fast casting - I think it's what's made the boss fights on my Gunslinger build pretty easy when paired with high Intellect for long durations. I guess if you want to max Dex for the fun sake of it for a particular build then that's okay, but getting it much higher the early 20s will likely lead to diminishing returns in terms of what else you could be spending those points on.

I think a tank Chanter would be pretty good for Triple Crown. Something I've noticed is that the Dragon Thrashed often applies to Confused enemies (e.g. Confusion can have different stages, they'll take damage in their wander stage but won't when they're attacking their friends). I'm playing solo PotD with my Gunslinger Chanter, who - though they have some tanky capabilities - aren't really a true tank, and I've found the Kraken, Adra and Alpine Dragons a cakewalk (with the previously mentioned tactic on the latter two); I imagine if you go a tank Chanter it's all the easier. The Bog Dragons are immune to confused, so I'll have to wait and see how they turn out - but I'm not too worried.

If anything else is noticed in the base game, is here now the best place for mentioning it or still the other thread? I noticed tonight that Ryona's Breastplate permanently gives Triggered Immunity for example, which would be nice if it could be fixed, even if it isn't game-breaking and is easily avoidable. Further, does that mean that other bugs that were mentioned in the other thread not on the list aren't getting a fix? It seems like all the major ones are covered above, but there are a few minor things like the on-crit stun weapon durations being way out of whack which Loren Tyr suggested a fix for. It's not really a problem if they aren't fixed (I'd take it as that's how you're intending the effect to work, and wouldn't have a problem with making use of them in the game), but it might clear things up a little to know.

Found another interesting bug - unlocking the last level of Ryona's Breastplate has given my Chanter Triggered Immunity permanently, even when I change equipment, rest or reload. Would be nice to squeeze a fix in given the uniqueness of the item.

So I killed the Alpine Dragon and rested in his lair with Ryona's Breastplate unlocking its final level, however now I've found Triggered Immunity has been awarded permanently even when I change equipment, rest or reload (though it's not listed on my character sheet). I can upload a save if necessary, but I'm guessing it isn't tricky to replicate. I have a save right before the Alpine Dragon and didn't really find him difficult so I'll reload at that point and this time not level up Ryona's Breastplate to bypass the bug on my end.

It'll be a Monk, there's actually few pure monk tanks from what I can see in the builds section (most people focus on DPS to an extent and dual wield, even if they do go a little tanky) and I have an idea of what to combine to make a tank interesting - so we'll wait and see. With a monk you can get away with taking little to no offensive talents due to their great abilities like Torment's Reach upping their damage with ease, so they're going to be almost as solidly built as you can get. I was half considering a Paladin tank - but they're too vanilla with little to keep combat exciting, or a Rogue tank - but the Yellow Flash build covers most of what's worthwhile to discuss there, so a Monk tank it is.