Grimlorn

I think it should be flexible even if it doesn't hit 5 million. Let them iron out all the kinks and put as much into it as they want.

Personally, I'd like to see Obsidian come up with some new system here. Something new and different but definitely something closer to D&D in design than say Dragon Age Origins. Also it would hopefully work better with a RTwP system. But I have no idea what that system would be or look like.

Agree with this. I don't mind a shorter game. I'd like to see some replay value also.

There is a report button. Just ask the mod who deletes this to cut the data and copy it on a cd, then burn(literally) the disk. "Games in the past have included badly done romances -- therefore, including a romance in a game makes it bad" and "If romance is included in a game, it isn't a RPG but I'm not going to tell you what I think an RPG is, either." You're exaggerating, no one has said any of that.

Yeah this thread is going nowhere and I'm being attacked by all these people who want romances. It's awful.

Don't worry, it's clear English isn't your first language. This isn't going to be the last time someone who disagrees with your opinion decides to attack your grasp of the language instead of dealing with your arguments. Wasn't attacking him, just couldn't understand his point.

Spamming insults now when out of arguments, aren't we? I'm just saying, if you've never been with a woman before a romance in a game is probably more immersive for someone than someone who has been with a woman. What's wrong with that? Not really insulting. It's like the difference between a boy seeing boobs for the first time and the difference between a man seeing them for the thousandth time. You know what? I could just as easily say that the people who are opposed to romance in games hold that position because they're 30-year old virgins who live in their mother's basement and don't like in-game romances because it reminds them of the pants-****ting terror they experience when they talk to women in real life. I don't make that argument because it would be rude and baseless, but that's essentially what you're doing here. It's dickish. Please stop. Well you could say that but you'd look stupid because most, if not all, of us have been with women. That's why we don't need romances in our video games. Can't you see that?

Spamming insults now when out of arguments, aren't we? I'm just saying, if you've never been with a woman before a romance in a game is probably more immersive for someone than someone who had been with a woman. What's wrong with that? Not really insulting. It's like the difference between a boy seeing boobs for the first time and the difference between a man seeing them for the thousandth time. Actually I don't even consider the first part to be insulting. It is not overwhelmingly right hence is not a really good argument, but makes perfect sense in some cases. I mean clearly some "never been with a woman before", nothing wrong with that. Yet the second part is where you've clearly dropped the ball. Oh I like to make future predictions. That's all that was.

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless. Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers? Yes I am compensating for the lack of adventure in my life and exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and boldly going where no man has gone before. So if that's true then the pro-romance crowd is compensating for a lack of relationships and romances in their lives. Sounds sad. I feel sorry for you guys. So you would want to start looting every crate you come across in, just so you could trade the items for that one replica sword? But you only use the sword to mindlessly kill bandits and monsters(ooooohhhh MONSTERS!), and not actually have a reason to use it, say protect your loved ones? And don't feel sorry for anyone, or make any assumptions for them. They probably enjoy their lives more than you think. People want romances as part of a whole. There is this thing called immersion and suspension of disbelief. They do not want to just be spawned in a dungeon full of monsters and slaughter their way to the final boss without reason. People like story and characters, dialogue and text, lore and exposition. You seem like you would prefer Oblivion and Skyrim over PS:T or BG. I personally won't have a problem if they are exluded, but when done well in any kind of story, game or otherwise, they can bring some really well done drama or well deserved joy when things go right for the heroes. I feel sorry for you. And you don't have anything to say do you? According to your logic people read books or watch movies that involve romance because they don't have a love life. And I feel sorry for you. Let me guess: Your favorite movie is Transformers 3 right? I'm guessing the star wars prequels are also some of your favorites. You seriously, SERIOUSLY should consider playing super mario galaxy, it's more your cup of tea. hehe, I feel sorry for you.

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless. Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers? Yes I am compensating for the lack of adventure in my life and exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and boldly going where no man has gone before. So if that's true then the pro-romance crowd is compensating for a lack of relationships and romances in their lives. Sounds sad. I feel sorry for you guys. So you would want to start looting every crate you come across in, just so you could trade the items for that one replica sword? But you only use the sword to mindlessly kill bandits and monsters(ooooohhhh MONSTERS!), and not actually have a reason to use it, say protect your loved ones? And don't feel sorry for anyone, or make any assumptions for them. They probably enjoy their lives more than you think. People want romances as part of a whole. There is this thing called immersion and suspension of disbelief. They do not want to just be spawned in a dungeon full of monsters and slaughter their way to the final boss without reason. People like story and characters, dialogue and text, lore and exposition. You seem like you would prefer Oblivion and Skyrim over PS:T or BG. I personally won't have a problem if they are exluded, but when done well in any kind of story, game or otherwise, they can bring some really well done drama or well deserved joy when things go right for the heroes. I feel sorry for you.

Yeah its rediculous that people starts fooling around if they dont have any arguments left kind regards, Jira English not good. Words no sense. Arguments no sense. Sound like caveman.

See, I actually believe the opposite. I think those who are steadfastly opposed to romances in video games are likely to be the lonely ones IRL. Since relationships aren't a regular part of their lives, they have trouble viewing their inclusion in video games as anything other than masturbatory pandering. OTOH, if you are habitually in relationships, it seems weird that your character isn't in one. I mean, in most games, you're playing a world-shaking hero who is awesomely competent and probably quite rich from all those sweet monsters loots- why the hell wouldn't such a person have a girlfriend/boyfriend? Girlfriend/boyfriend or sex toy? Becuse most "romance" options in video games amounts to the latter. Also, your character will have a relationship in the true meaning of the word with all the other NPCs. Why does he/she *have* to have sex with someone travelling with him/her? I hope all the recruitable NPCs are grosteque and wierd looking. Because they can't get "emotionally engaged" if women/men aren't falling all over them and having sex with their character that they wish they were.

No, romance is not the default way to express desire for unique companions with more dialogue/backstory. That's ridiculous.Have you read the romance threads? They're very specific about the types of relationships they want with these characters.

Okay, story time. When I was playing through Dragon Age, my then girlfriend, who has no interest in games generally, started to watch me play. She thought combat was boring, and usually just read books while I was doing that, but she liked it when I was talking to the NPCs. And she especially liked watching me hit on Morrigan. And she got really really interested when Leliana showed up and I decided to hit on her, too. She started out loving Morrigan and hating Leliana, but slowly switched positions over the course of the game. In fact, she took kind of a sadistic glee in seeing how screwed up Morrigan was emotionally. The Dark Ritual thing completely knocked her on her ass, because by that point she was invested enough in my character that she didn't want him to die, but thought that Morrigan toxic and didn't want my Warden sleeping with her. Once we got to the epilogue, she was relieved to see that Morrigan actually took the evil god baby and left, since she was afraid Morrigan would turn into a crazy stalker and murder Leliana's weird little rabbit thing and turn it into a pair of shoes. So yes, I think that the romance in Dragon Age was well done. My girlfriend didn't care about video games before or after Dragon Age, but she found the romances compelling enough that she formed attachments to the various characters involved and became invested in the story. If it were just fan service, or if it were poorly written, I don't think that would have happened. And just to mine all of the controversial territory I can with this post, the exact same thing happened with one of my friends who played Dragon Age who happened to be a gay man. He was playing, his non-gamer boyfriend started watching him, and both got totally caught up in the Alistair romance. I was hearing about how they both had crushes on Alistair for weeks after they stopped playing. Y People who do not like RPGs start enjoying them due to added features that do not directly have anything to do with core RPG mechanics and them demanding the same in all other game shifting definitions in the process is what brought us the last ten or so years of ****. I am look at the latest IGN trolling attempt Top 100 RPGs article. haha yeah. Final Fantasy 6 best RPG EVAR IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless. Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers? Yes I am compensating for the lack of adventure in my life and exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and boldly going where no man has gone before. So if that's true then the pro-romance crowd is compensating for a lack of relationships and romances in their lives. Sounds sad. I feel sorry for you guys.

I'm serious. I perceive RPGs as role-playing games where I can role play my character as an actual person, not as a mere killing machine. I personally have zero interest in dungeon crawlers and Diablo-eskue hack and slashes no matter how old or new they are. I like my characters and plots deep. Just like in Planescape for example. And what was the central question of that game, can you recall it? "What can change the nature of a man?" Also romances doesn't have to be reduced to "a couple of conversations and a sex scene". Are you super serious? No one here is talking about hack and slash games. You like your characters and plot deep? Are they deep if there aren't romances because that's what you're implying with your post. That there needs to be romance otherwise characters can't be deep.

You do understand that the RP in RPG stands for "role-playing", right? A relationship simulator is an RPG, a fantasy combat simulator is not. I prefer RPGs that take place in fantasy worlds and feature combat as a major part of the game, just as I prefer fantasy novels with a strong plot as well as well developed characters over both Mills & Boon or mindless action. No relationship simulators aren't RPGs. Your definition of a RPG is wrong and flawed.

I don't think this is correct -- more accurate would be "The game would cease to be a traditional RPG (...and PE is supposed to be a traditional RPG)." A traditional RPG is about combat -- finding combat [quests], preparing for combat [buying and equipping stuff], doing combat, and recovering from combat [selling stuff, claiming rewards], and clearly relationships (romantic or otherwise) are irrelevant to this discussion. On the other hand, PS:T and (to a lesser degree) KOTR:2 and BG games were notable because they broke this traditional RPG model. The only two infinity engine games that truly fit the "tradition RPG" mold are the IWD games, and it is quite obvious that IWD isn't a significant part of the inspiration for this game. So... Obsidian has already indicated that this game won't be a "traditional RPG" in the sense that you mean -- it will very likely include a large amount of content that doesn't revolve around (or even impact) combat. Whether or not that will include romances is unknown at this point, thus this thread. Depends on your definition of a RPG. If you think the Sims is a RPG because you're playing house and building a family, or you think Halo is a RPG because you're playing the role of Masterchief, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not talking about a focus on story and dialogue those games had. I'm talking about Rose's post above where they want romantic storylines, fights and disagreements with love interest, and they want to fail at romancing but become platonic friends and have storylines for those. This would make romances and relationships the center of the game. That would make the focus of the game about relationship simulating and it would no longer be a RPG.

This guy has great points about games being art. Start from 5:25 and watch till the end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBETU-uOGh8&feature=plcp Really just seems like the idea of art is used to distract from the actual content of the games. Used to justify anything the developer does while making it wrong to criticize because yknow it's the art and art can't be bad.

For you guys to get these complex relationships where relationships are difficult to build and there are fights with your love interest, you'd have to build the game around the romance and forget about building an actual RPG. Don't you guys realize that when you ask for these "complex" relationships? The game would cease to be a RPG.

Are you serious? So people who don't like romances in video games are unable to perceive art in video games? Nice insult. Maybe you should take a look at a lot of older RPGs. They were never about examining all of human nature in all of its manifestations. Especially romance. They were about adventuring, questing, killing monsters, not roleplaying getting laid. You guys are crazy, glorifying something that boils down to a couple conversations and a sex scene. Oh but that's art right?

So you want a relationship simulator instead of a RPG?

Presumably the other thread was closed because we already have this one; it's been open since Friday. As for the rest of it, nobody is saying they're necessary for a story to be good. There's lots of situations where including a romance wouldn't make any sense. There's no romance in Portal because, well, that would be stupid. It wouldn't fit. There's no romance in Battlefield 3, either. If romance isn't appropriate for the story, by all means, exclude it. But most RPGs, IMO, don't fall into that category. And if you say right from the get-go that you're going to exclude romance, you're denying yourself a powerful storytelling tool. Outside the realm of video games, in movies and books and television, most stories have romance. Why? Because it's compelling. It touches on some really primal **** in the human psyche. Deciding you're not going to deal with romance in your story when it would otherwise be appropriate is like tossing half the tools out of your toolbox before you start a building project. It's an unnecessary and silly self-imposed limitation. It's not appropriate in RPGs. It's never been done well and always feels tacked on. And your point doesn't make sense. The same could be said about making sure to include romances which are crap btw in games. Go play Bioware's games if you like romances. DA3 will be out before Eternity.

If that's the way you feel, why are you even posting in this forum? Virtually this entire place is devoted to people asking the devs to include stuff they care about in the game. It's also dedicated to having discussions and giving feedback on what we don't want. Romances in video games are terrible and are never done well. They aren't needed for a good story. That's just crazy talk. And I'm not sure why we have another one of these threads when one was closed yesterday.

Skill based would be a terrible idea. You have a party of 6 characters. A skill based system would make it so they can all do the same things if they just train them. There wouldn't be any diversity. No replay value. No strengths and weaknesses based on choosing different classes.