BruceVC

Im not going to ask you to provide a link for every point so I can confirm the context of what he said and what he meant I dont want to spend that kind of time on this debate. I was being diplomatic when I said " much ". I remember much of what you posted and he did say it But the reality of Trumps comments like you posted is he often had an answer and how things were taken out of context by the media. But the point is you right, he did say those things

And I dont disagree with some of these points, much of it is true

Im not whitewashing anything or using whataboutism? Im responding to your questions around how Trump supporters see the points your raised. I am not a Trump supporter as I mentioned but he could be the US president in 2024 so its important to understand why people support him At the very least you could read my post and disagree and explain why you disgaree....thats how debate works

So I am just going to summarize the response to the points you mentioned, we can go into more detail if you interested. I have been following the US election ideological developments since about 2003 and you have to realize its much more nuanced and complicated than what most people realize because we naturally compare it to our own Democracies. For example gun control is not as simple as we all think because its Constitutional and cultural to many Americans and thats never going to change And then its important to not generalize about either party in the US, both parties have extreme left and right elements and both parties have moderates and centralist views. I support both parties in different ways but at the moment Im more GOP leaning but during Obamas time I was Democrat. But Im not a Trump supporter - He is openly racist : This is often raised but its subjective, he got 30% of the Hispanic vote in 2016 and he always has black people who support him. You will always find " Blacks for Trump " at all his rallies. Its awkward when white people like us assume Trump is racist yet not all black people will agree on that - Crapton of nepotism : He had very clever advisors in his cabinet in 2016 especially around economic policies. The unemployment rate amongst Hispanic and black Americans was the lowest its ever been. So nepotism can be seen as qualified people in certain government departments like the Wilbur Ross and others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_economic_advisors_to_Donald_Trump - How he handled Covid-19: Agreed, it was mishandled but the high deaths in the US was more due to citizens and governors who rejected basic virus best practice like vaccines. Trump himself took vaccines but much of his base and supporters refused. So I think this was more about the global push back to proven science around vaccines - Immigration politics : The immigration on the border is worse under the Democrats and getting worse. Illegal immigration is a crisis in many countries including SA - Lied constantly and got away with everything : His supporters will tell you either he didnt lie or its " just how Trump is " or " the media is taking him seriously when he was just trolling" and he use to do this on purpose to get a liberal media response and create a distraction to real issues...and people fell for it time and time again. But he was cavalier with facts and repeated misinformation but his supporters didnt seem to care - Insurrection, and got away with it (so far, we'll see what happens next) : Trump genuinely believes the election was stolen. Its different from knowing he lost and lying about it like Bannon and Giuliani did. But yes we need to see if he will he prosecuted for willful ignorance - Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement: Bad decision and a mistake - Wanted to get out of NATO : Terrible decision and demonstrated Trumps lack of interest and understanding in history and events outside of the US - Is obviously a russian puppet : I wouldnt call him a Putin puppet but he admires autocratic and strongmen governments because they dont allow things like a free media. Thankfully Trump cant destroy the free media in the US - Enlisting Foreign Officials to Help His Candidacy (remember Ukraine): Yes, Trump was transactional around everything. He never understood the importance of decorum and presidential protocol. So in his mind it was acceptable to try to " bribe " Zelensky to help him undermine Biden. Again this was an example of Trump not understanding geopolitics and what any president can or cant do - Dismantled the Iran atom deal: A complex one, the Obama prudent nuclear deal was not practiced in good faith by the hardliners in Iran because they tested ballistic missiles and continue to destabilize the ME. The nuclear deal was supposed to be about overall stability in the ME between Shia and Sunnis and the Iranian hardliners didntn follow this - Generally anti-science: Agreed, Trump has very little understanding and belief in science - Is part of some weird religious cult (ofc he is not religious, but he and his people don't mind using whatever they can to get power and money) : Agreed, the Trumperism cult is a concern to me because most of them no longer vote on what they believe but rather what Trump tells them to do. This undermines the principle of what citizens in any Democracy are suppose to do

Yes I was being serious, when I ask questions about anyones opinion its because I dont want to assume. So unless Im clearly joking I am always sincere about the questions I ask You raise some good points and I share some of your concerns. I will respond later because I have some work pressures now But I appreciate you going into details because now I understand what you mean

Im interested in what you mean, Trump won in 2016 in a free and fair election. What did people you know lose trust in? Because we cant get upset with the outcome of any Democrat election in the world if thats what the majority of people who register to vote and decide to vote choose? I am genuinely interested in what you mean, I can guess but I dont want to guess?

Well I agree the EU needs to be do more and its starts having a more resourced military. Which is why Im glad Scholtz has increased the military spending for Germany

Just for the record I think another 4 years of Trump will be a bad idea for US and global Democracy generally. But at least it will only be for another 4 years...how much damage can he really do? I do share your concern about the undermining of Democracy anywhere in the world But I cant stress the point enough how much worse the world would be without the US because we would all be beholden and influenced to the likes of Russia and China and their ideological views. You must realize the US provides the main counter to these true autocrat and undemocratic states

Oh no, the fascist word ....bad Lexx, bad Lexx using a word in the wrong context A country that is Constitutional Democracy is not a fascist state. So the majority of Americans dont have to realize something that isnt true But its always good to ensure that a Democracy doesnt slide into a non-Democratic state and become an autocratic or true fascist state. Thats why you have a free media, independent courts and a vibrant civil society in the US and you have the different arms of government that hold each other accountable I cant think of any example in the world where a working, functional Democracy has become an autocratic or fascist state? But we must always be on our guard so its good to be concerned and wary And finally the US is the most powerful military in the world but can you imagine how much more worse the world would be if the US suddenly became isolationist and we were left with Russia and China as the worlds next most powerful militaries. Thats much more scary than the US

@Gfted1 I wonder if you could use rubber bullets in a drone?

No its a women

Its fake news hoonding, dont believe a word. The radical left have always been trying to undermine Peterson because he calls them out and correctly identifies their pernicious and insidious influence

Sarex "concern " with how the police responded in Uvalde has nothing to do with if the police are really brave or the actual killings Its just the normal anti-US and by proxy anti-Western ideological bashing. Have you ever known a debate on this forum where anyone has made multiple posts about when the police have gone in and killed shooters or lost there lives during a violent standoff ? Do we say " the US police are really brave "? Im not saying people cant discuss the bravery of the police in Uvalde but its just theater and not sincere

I have also supported the usage of drones in crowd control situations and during violent protests I wouldnt go as far as suggesting you need sniper rifles because thats only necessary in times of real war and conflict so I can understand the Israelis using this technique But drones can be hugely beneficial in certain cases

You make good points around your criticism....you made me laugh because its exactly what its like in FC games You can disable map markers as far as I remember but the mechanics that frustrate you wont change

Majestic I have excellent news for you guys who are active on this thread. I have never really watched these violent cartoons that you guys enjoy but one of my brothers recommend Vinland Saga and I really enjoyed it I then started watching Beserk and that was even better, Guts is my hero. I like the dark adult theme of Berserk The bad news is I dont have time to be active on this thread but I am going to be watching these violent cartoons going forward

Fair enough but you must give Odyssey a go, its got creatures from Greek mythology you can fight, like the Minotaur and Cyclops, and fun naval battles which changes the repetitive nature of Ubisoft design

What dont you like about Ubisoft games? What they good at around design and mechanics have generally always been the same but they improve on this formulae. So Im interested in what you dont like about there basic design For me they very entertaining, the game worlds are always beautiful and authentic around lore and historical accuracy, like AC Odyssey, and the side activities are fun. But as with all Ubisoft games you inevitably get to that " Ubisoft fatigue " where suddenly the clearing of bases and camps becomes boring and at that point I just focus on the main quest

I watched this interview on CNN, its okay. The US was provoked

Unfortunately Russia invaded Ukraine and the consequences for this we have to accept whatever happens And if Russia is " provoked " to attack a NATO country then again we will have to accept the consequence

Its interesting you have taken that stance, Hamas does that all the time in Gaza and the West Bank. Often when Palestinian civilian are killed its exactly because Hamas is launching rockets or has militants fighting from civilian houses and structures So its good to know you wont be outraged and you will blame Hamas for the Israelis killing civilians next time their is conflict in that region

The sooner the EU is not dependent on any energy from Russia the better. And it will happen, it just takes time

What do you think is the cause of the global inflation that only happened when the lockdowns ended and economies started opening up again?

Yes you should feel guilty, think of all the good friends you are betraying by leaving....what about all the Friday afternoons you have spent drinking and carousing with your work colleagues ?

Do you know that Russia and China wanted to replace the $ as the worlds reserve currency from the creation of BRIC in 2006 and they have always claimed they want this yet the $ is still the worlds reserve currency https://www.forbes.com/2009/07/09/currency-reserve-bric-intelligent-investing-dollar.html?sh=343ef7403c09 Also a recession is not the same as a collapse, SA has been through several recessions based on the technical definition which is 2 quarters of negative GDP growth and our economy has still not collapsed because its very easy to immediately come out of technical recession the moment you have growth in the next quarter So I guess the real question is " what do you and ZH define as a collapse of an economy " ?