BruceVC

Sorry Valmy but I have to dismiss that characterization of mens activists with utter contempt and say it is complete nonsense. Unless you can provide me some links that corroborate your post?

Unfortunately when I read this type of post I can only come to one conclusion. You are in fact not fine with the fact that PoE won't have Romance and this confusion manifests itself possibly subconsciously in posts like this

Of course that's always a good emotion to work with, betrayal. But about betrayal and then possible redemption? So in your example they take some items ( not XP ) and then you can track them down, find out why but still forgive them. Good Romance arc idea Malc

Or detracts from it horribly through an awkward, contrived and glued on accesssory feature that can never really grow to its full potential and casts a toxic shadow over everything else. Like it usually does. " That's definitely not the positive marketing spin on Romance folks, just in case anyone was wondering if it was "

All that proves is a lot of mod makers are lonely weirdos, really. Actually I think a lot of the mod makers are about extending the game; adding longer/new relationship strands is probably easier than trying to program something new into the game. Wow Malc, epic fail on your analysis on mod makers. Good post Amentep

Wow that was excellent, its like watching an exciting trailer for a movie

no, that's not how it began either. I said the game looked poor (visual design, UI, combat, writing), so I was probably missing something that one wouldn't see unless he played the game for a couple of hours (and I'd like to add that if a game takes many hours of playing to appreciate it's not a very good game to begin with; now that I think about it, Fallout 2 isn't a very good game: it's all filler areas disconnected from each other, with some very good NPC encounters and a lot of mindless combat - today I wouldn't give Fallout 2 a a single chance). so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; that the game's design is far from stellar, it's very uneven, and it takes digging to get to the good parts. well, I don't have time for that, so I won't buy it. that is what I said, what followed was something that completely missed my point, though, saying that I couldn't tell an old school RPG from a dog turd, that my opinions aren't valid, I would assume because I don't like all the "kewl" RPGs so I'm clearly "not in the club" or something. I mean, come on, arguments like, "it's an old school RPG, but it's ok that it has a minimap and handholds you, because obviously games like NWN, WoW and Skyrim etc. proved that minimaps work, so why not include them" - no one sees the flaw in this kind of logic? man, I could go on and on, but I see it's pointless, most people here like this game so much they get very defensive when I try to criticize some aspects of it that are on the surface. as if it was they who made this game. and then I get called out for "lacking perspective", "play the game for 20 or so hours first". hey, wake up call: I'm not writing a review, this is a first-impressions discussion Sorophx I'm going to try to explain something to you because you seem to misunderstanding why people are criticizing you and you seem to feel you are the victim There are people who have played DO:S for dozens of hours and really can comment on what's good and bad about the game. You formulated a dismissive view of the game based on a video. You can deny this or not but this is what is considered an uninformed view of something. When this was pointed out you become defensive. The so called "fanboy" support of this game is from people who have an informed opinion of the game, you are not debating from this perspective. In life its good to sometimes admit you are wrong about a topic, it doesn't make you weak or make future comments less relevant. But your continued debating around this topic has just made you sound silly End of the day you cannot really comment on the game and all its flaws until you have personally played it

And I will still argue that the West aligning with Sunni dominated countries like Saudi Arabia makes sense and is the right strategy for the region to ensure future stability

But this raises a good point, a country can truly transform itself with the right political will. In 70 years Germany has become one of the most powerful and influential countries in the region, and the world, despite losing two world wars. Well done Germany on winning the world cup

These two posts accurately summarize the case for Romance from people who don't normally participate in this type of discussion. Romance adds to a more immersive and memorable RPG experience with your party members. These posts are what almost all people who want Romance feel and despite all the objections to Romance it doesn't change the logical reason for including them So good posts

Nonek before I make my point I want to say something. I enjoy debating with you because you have the ability to separate your emotions from the debate, in other words even if you think someone is being personal you don't normally dwell on that. You make your point based on the facts as you understand them. That is what I always try to do, I attack the argument..not the person ( of course I don't always get this right) So even though it may seem like I'm targeting your perspective I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you because I'm confident you can deal with my point without getting offended. Saying all that let me ask you an important question, I have noticed when it comes to your dislike of Isabella why is you always mention her clothes? If you disagree with me can you give me one example where you single out any character from Bioware where you make a point of pointing out there attire as one of the reasons you dislike the personality? I'll explain later why this is relevant

I want to make another observation, I have noticed a lot of criticism from many people towards Isabella. And it makes me question why? Why single out Isabella constantly when it comes to diatribe against the various DA2 characters. And the attacks against her are often personal, they are not based on logic There are several possible reasons for this but one reason is the fact that Isabella challengers the predefined gender roles that people are comfortable with. Isabella is a confident, vociferous and sexually driven person. She is not ashamed to talk about sex openly and how she can use sex to further her aims. She is totally liberated and its great to see So some people are not comfortable with this type of female personality, they prefer the meek and weak archetypical 1960's house wife. Isabella's confidence is seen as vacuous, annoying and unrealistic. But this is really about the positioning of gender roles and what people expect. And I'm NOT saying this is why you don't like her. You have explained before but this is about why others don't like her

Well done Netherlands !!!! All I can say is that you did your country proud

Funnily enough, when I see guys pipe up about not getting into playing chicks, they don't seem to get nearly as much flack as I do. What's up with that?! Yes your observations are 100 % accurate, its really about the obvious inequality around gender representation that exists in gaming nowadays. But the majority of people on these forums will tell you "there is no problem, feminists are always complaining", but as I've pointed out several times during similar discussions almost all active members on these forums are male gamers who are quote happy with the status quo..or are rather happy to not try to challenge it But there are several of us who do raise these issues, like Assassins Creed Unity, anyway its good to see a lady gamer raising this type of disparity . Things are changing in gaming and more and more people are intolerant of company's that don't cater for there entire fan base, so its is getting better. Albeit slowly

Don't be a hater Keyrock, don't be a hater

The only game full developed by Bioware as part of EA is Dragon Age 2, everything else was already in various states of completion, although you could argue EA interfered. Or that Bioware mis-marketed their ending of ME3 (which is a totally awesome game and you should play). The choices you make during the three games are the ones that count, the final decision in game was horrendously handled and we were told this is what we've spent however many hours building up to.. How many people ****-canned Deus Ex (the first one) because of it's RGB ending? Unless you want a Fallout-style ending with splash screen after splash screen with every minute detail addressed in a weird disjointed monologue? I expect huge things from DA3, and I think that EA have realised that Bioware need to be able to do their own thing considering the backlash from DA2 and SWTOR (different part of Bioware, but whatever). If EA let Bioware do their thing and do it well they have a real chance at grabbing this part of the market. It makes sense to let Bioware have a long leash for DA3 but also for ME4 and whatever future projects they have. I love how people still want to believe in BW, and how EA must be the reason that they been having such a poor job. EA gave them 200 million dollars to do TOR which was a complete and utter failure, I'm pretty certain that BW has done their share of **** ups with their projects that had nothing to do with EA. I doubt a publisher would trust a developer with that kind of money and feel the need to babysit them. BW went through a staff change where all the talent sort moved away and someone less apt where left in charge ( I'm looking at you Casey Hudson) Plus, I doubt that EA is the one forcing them to write those cringy quotes for their characters, that's all BW baby. I'm not saying that the two doctors weren't going the way of George Lucas because I think it's quite clear they were. Anyone who automatically thinks the only way to create an MMO is to make a WoW clone has completely lost whatever innovative spark they might once had in the beginning of their career. All the same, I've been gaming much too long and have experienced first hand the obliteration of one talented development company after another thanks to being absorbed into EA over the years to not keep EA firmly in my cross hairs whenever it's involved in any way at any time. It's an apathetic corporation that only cares about making the quarterly money for stockholders and couldn't give a rip what the fans who buy their games actually want. Sure they may have given Bioware more leeway than usual and I think I can vaguely recall one of the doctors admitting that EA gave them just enough rope to hang themselves with, which they did. Also, if memory serves, around the time of the ME3 debacle, I read that Casey Hudson and one other dude literally locked themselves in their office and shut out everyone else who was usually involved in development of ME3 so they could deliver the fixed ending that created such an internet uproar. Sounds to me like someone was offered a hefty bonus to get the game out at a certain time so a certain corporation could make it's quarterly statement. Anyway, it's really no coincidence that whenever EA gets involved, mediocrity follows. Nah, you being overly negative and jaded. There are loads of excellent games from EA like Alice: Madness Returns

I just finished Legends of Grimrock, excellent game. The combat is great fun and I enjoyed some of the puzzles. I did get stumped on some parts of the game and had to use walkthroughs I clocked about 40 hours on Steam playing this game so it was a worthwhile investment

You cheeky..you know that But you are correct, I meant to say biased But please understand I don't make the rules..I merely adhere to them In a court where only Stun or I could be right and the decision was based on fact you cant possibly see yourself as objective towards Isabella? Its clear you are biased...sorry

No offense Nonek but you have never liked Isabella, your opinion is therefore egregiously bias and we have to treat you as hostile witness..sorry, nothing personal

Oh, is that so? In that case, what's the point of asking for Romances in PoE? Can't you promancers just imagine they exist and spare us the multi-thread whining? I knew you were going to ask that, but you must remember something important. I did say I need a foundation to build my RP experience so for me this Romance discussion is about raising the importance of Romance and also generating awareness so hopefully Obsidian includes them in PoE 2

There is no development of the romance. There's just a single 'sex' scene that is completely independent of everything, save for a single dialogue that triggers it. And having sex with her has exactly ZERO effect on anything that happens afterwards. In your head? You get the exact same "Apology accepted!" dialogue and continuance of the friendship whether you're romancing her or not. What "courting" are you talking about, exactly? That's kinda my point, bruce. And the point of several other posters' arguments that you have dismissed away as 'unconvincing'. A well written NPC friendship is indistinguishable from a Romance, save for the absence of all the pretentious juvenile crap that a video game romance must have, like cartoon kissing and pixel sex so the horny teen fanbase can get their hard-ons, which the marketing department pie charts suggest is an effective way to boost game sales. No offense Stun but it seems that the difference between you and me is you lack imagination during a RPG. My RP experience is not defined by a few lines of text or only what the games presents to me. When I explore a tomb, fight a dragon or Romance someone in the game my idea of what is happening is not just what I see in the game, its what I RP..its what I imagine..yes in my head, So for example when Isabella betrayed me you saw the game offering the same "apology accepted". I saw this totally differently, in my head, and Isabella became more committed to our relationship. Of course I need a foundation, in other words if there are no Romance options or party interaction I can't create one In BG2 when you travel to the Drow city your experience about the city is limited around what you see , like the Aboleth that is imprisoned. But for me I was imagining many other things that did exist in the city. They weren't actually there in the game but I could still RP the experience. The same principle applies to Romance and exploring a Romance arc. End of the day you are over analysing what the game doesn't offer, there is much more to an RPG than just what you can see and what the developers can present.

No not at all, it was the development of the Romance I enjoyed which is part of my overall RP experience. So for example even though she betrayed me with the Desire Demon I forgave her and continued to court her You say that there was no difference between being her friend or trying to Romance her with dialogue options, I wasn't aware of that because most of my conversations with her were with the intention of developing Romance. Now lets say you are right about the dialog making no difference that would still be irrelevant to me because my RP experience was always about the fact the conversations were about Romance ( well not all of them but the more personals ones where she asked me to do her favours )

You act as if this is a matter of opinion. It isn't. Isabela's story is NOT part of the romance. Period. It happens exactly the same way (same dialogue choices and everything) regardless of whether your Hawke is romancing her. So unless you see those fade-to-black, underwear-humping scenes as a major reason why you like Romances, you cannot logically claim that you wouldn't have enjoyed an Isabela friendship just as much as an Isabela romance, Since those silly scenes are the ONLY difference between the two. And this is PROOF of what people have been telling you in all these romance threads and what you've always brushed off as "unconvincing": Romances rarely ever add the character depth to NPCs that you think they do. Therefore, whether they're worth the added development costs and game integrity risks becomes the most important question. I'm not explaining my point properly, I'll try again You said initially that the stories and characters in DA2 were badly written and it was rushed job. So firstly I reject that, I enjoyed the narrative and the various characters. The things I didn't like were the reused dungeons...but the narrative was fine Now around Isabella I was highlighting the fact that her story was one of the reasons I Romanced her. I enjoyed her story. In every RPG I play I also imagine the adventures and journeys of my party. I RP there trials and Romance is part of that. So because that is how I play an RPG the story of the various characters directly adds to the depth of the overall experience and for me Romance is part of the experience I expect Its irrelevant if you followed her story but didn't Romance her, that's not the point I'm making So there is no proof of anything, I am still unconvinced that leaving out Romance in the case of Isabella would have made the interaction with her as memorable. Because the Romance arc was part of the overall gaming experience I hope this clears this up

So for me the persons story and Romance are inextricably linked and relevant. I only Romance people that I can identify with and that's persons story is part of the identification process So once again this may not be relevant to you but the fact that Isabella had an interesting story was a factor in my Romance endeavors with her. And as for Promancers not being picky, maybe. I don't have any complaints about any of the Romance arcs I was in involved in through the various RPG I have played like ME, BG2 or DA. So you may be right, promancers are easy to please...or we could just be less critical?

Lets not give DA2 that much credit. Its "Everyone goes both ways!" thing was not for silliness sake, It wasn't for fantasy's sake either, and the devs weren't trying to be 'socially progressive', or whatever. It was for cost-cutting sake and nothing more. They couldn't afford to write up distinct Gay backgrounds, personalities, flirts and cutscenes, Straight backgrounds, personalities, flirts and cutscenes, and Bi Backgrounds, personalities, flirts and cutscenes for all 4 romanceable NPCs so they just made everyone Bi without any explanation or any deviation (except for maybe Isabela. They managed to scrounge up an explanation for her sexuality). <gag> It was lazy and cheap, like everything else in DA2. But that's just one of the million problems with romances in Video games. They're a huge, expensive undertaking. And unless you're very thorough (which isn't cheap), you risk alienating/offending whole swaths of the fanbase. You make some good points as usual yet I'll raise this again. It seems the people that were most critical of the Romance implementation in DA2 were people who don't like Romance anyway For example I was fine with the Romance in DA2, I dated the beautiful Isabella and I thought her story and motive were interesting and made perfect sense