BruceVC

Some people always bring those up, but usually they are also those people that don't actually care what other side's arguments are as they have already decided that they are right. But as idea behind modern marriage is union between partners that have equal rights, which means that marriage with inanimate objects or animals (other than human) would need many aspects from marriage (economical, inheritance, medical emergency, divorce, etc.) that it could work from point of law. Necrophilia also is problematic thing as people have bodily autonomy even after death (like for example they can forbid using their organs as transplants or their body in scientific studies), so allowance of necrophilia would also in most cases need removing bodily autonomy from bodies of death person and family's right what happens to bodies of their loved ones and probably some other factors. Incest is always problematic thing, even if you leave out genetic impoverishment, because of power dynamics and family structure that usually make such relationships so one sided that it often can undermine constitutional rights of other person. Age of consent is always hardest thing, as it is very society depending thing, especially when you take in consideration that there is lot things that society seen appropriate to limit with age restrictions. So questioning age of consent also put all those other age limits under question, as if person is mature enough handle one thing that was previously restricted, then why they aren't mature enough handle this another thing. Which means that age of consent discussion should be one of general development of maturity. I don't think anyone expected such a reasonable and informative answer, well played sir

Sure Nonek, you saying you won't comment on a Romance thread has the same likelihood as me saying " I'm done raising SJ issues " And this is not a criticism of your posts, I like your perspective even if I don't agree with it

I'm also fatigued with the lack of objectiveness and reasonableness from certain groups on both sides

You should come to the Romance thread and support me in my endeavours there Gfted1? That always seems to make you laugh.....

I wish I could give you advice because your insomnia sounds intolerable, I honestly don't know how I would survive on such little sleep. What is the reason you can't sleep, have you been to a doctor? What always helps me to sleep is cardio training in the evening but of course if you have no energy you will probably battle to train effectively..so that's probably pointless? Something else which may help, and I know you said you don't do it, but smoke some weed about 2-3 hours before you want to sleep. See if it makes any difference then you can decide how to proceed?

Yesterday we went for a 4 hour walk and probably did between 12-14 km, its really a great feeling to be able to walk through a city like London with all these interesting sites and landmarks and feel completely safe. Its not that I feel unsafe in South Africa but we are always aware of what we are doing From Chelsea we went through South Kensingston and saw the sights of Exhibition road, we then crossed into Kensington Gardens and went east through Hyde Park and onto Buckingham Palace. From there we headed up to Trafalgar Square and north-west up Regent Street through Piccadilly Circus to Oxford Street. We then headed west back through Hyde Park and back home down Exhibition Road to get home Something interesting, at Exhibition street I battled to find a traditional English breakfast, only the fourth restaurant we went to served it. There seems something wrong when you cant find an English breakfast in London and I suppose a sign of the changing demographics? Last night we went to an amazing restaurant called PJ's in Chelsea, I had a delicious Steak Tartare and then we went to several pubs for some drinks So a really good day overall

Was he? You sure he wasn't suggesting the implementations of emails ? I was just using a bit of humour to liven up the mood which can get serious at times Yeah I know what he meant and yes there is definitely a case for that type of interaction and how it may enhance or influence a Romance situation. This probably applies more to a NPC that is outside the party?

I consider myself open minded when it comes to Romance suggestions but e-mails in a fantasy RPG? That's going to be a hard one for people to buy into? I'm sure it would destroy the realism of the fantasy vibe

Guys I have mentioned this before but if you like your horror series you must start watching The Strain, it really is brilliant. Also I started watching Third Watch again, its an old cop show, started in 1999, but very good. I am only on season 1 and I did most watch most of it years ago but its highly recommended

Well played, just the fact she wants to see you again is always a good thing, Keep us updated

I agree with this sentiment, just because a person says "I am excited about DA:I " doesn't mean you think Bioware is faultless or previous games can't be improved on. The reality is millions of people are excited about DA:I but they are hoping its an improvement to DA 2. Its not a weird opinion or expectation

"fanatical and religious " Oh Volo you do make laugh

Guys this is why I tend to like Lephys posts, its his ability to articulate a point and his reasonable logic This post summarizes my objections to the letter as the only medium of Romance, now you'll notice I said "only". I didn't say the letter concept cannot be used as another form of interaction or inherently its a bad idea. But Lephys does raise some valid structural problems around the letter, so I won't say anything more on this topic @ Namutree I'll be honest, I have the most concerns when I think of you thinking the letter can replace traditional Romance implementations. With your modding skills we have the opportunity to create more realistic and engaging Romance like we discussed and most of us ultimately want. In other words no " Bioware Romances only ". I don't want you to focus energy only on something that is one dimensional. But I know this is not what you saying as you have already said the letter can be used in tangent with other things

You naughty, you know that ?

Not this trip but the next time I'll come across and come say hi to you, 2 years ago I was in Belgium and Netherlands but I didn't know you back then

Actually, I'm not as worked up as it may have sounded to you. Thankfully, I don't know anyone who is trolling as hard as you in RL, so I don't know what I'd do in a real argument with them. This is also largely irrelevant to the given topic. And no, I'm not pissed off because of your opinion. Your opinion is fine (however twisted it may be) and you are entitled to it. What is not fine for me, however, is making broad generalizations based on your own opinion what people want in romances, what works for them and that you always derail discussions to your notion of a romance, in particular in other threads than this one. I think there are quite some people on this forum that would like to see a tasteful implementation of romance. However, as soon as we are stepping out of bioware style romance to discuss the merit of doing things different (removing the sexual component or removing direct feedback), you try to make the implementation sound implausible in order to further beat a dead horse and that's hurting the discussion. Your argument is basically 'it's different as the stuff I'm used to, so it must be a bad romance'. You obviously like the way it has been done before, and that's fine, but everyone knows this by now, so you are actively blocking any progress on the topic in this thread. I'm sure you are a nice person, but you are not understanding anyone if you say you understand them and ignore their arguments anyway. I'm not even arguing you should stop commenting, I'm just arguing you should stop speaking for other people. The majority of people who commented on the issue preferred the marriage idea to the usual romance. No need to worry, I have no intention of not commenting But your characterization of me and how I dismiss any opinion different to mine in simply not true. In fact I have admitted several times that Bioware Romances can be improved on, I have acknowledged we need more realistic Romances, I have said we need Romances that allow for fails and break-ups and I have suggested a Romance arc that builds over time but should only be feasible if the party faces real challengers together...basically an emotional connection through adversity. None of these follow the normal Romance implementation. But yes I have an issue with a Romance suggestion that doesn't involve actually interacting with a character, sorry but that's just how I feel. But I am not the judge and jury of what constitutes acceptable Romance. This is merely my opinion, but I would wager a bet that other promancers will agree with me? And I don't troll, this is my opinion and I am more than prepared to have a mature debate around what works and doesn't around Romance

Am I the only one who thinks Kim Kardashian is really hot ?

Okay thanks for responding, but I don't think people are trolling in this discussion. They seem to be disagreeing with you and challenging your opinion? That's the foundation of debate isn't it and what we expect from a forum?

It seems I am one of the few people on these forums who really enjoys Bioware games, but I do prefer the older Bioware games more than the newer ones. BG 2 is my favourite RPG of all time. DA:O was good fun but not as good as BG2, saying all that I do have high hopes for DA:I. I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised when it is released, something tells me its not going to disappoint

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ? Why do you presume that they are (only) wives? I researched subject little bit when helped with equal marriage civil bill campaign in here Finland, because allowance of polygamy marriage is thing that always rises on surface when one speaks about allowance of same-sex marriage, so I though it's probably better know at least little bit about subject. In South Africa our constitution allows same sex marriages but we call it civil unions, but its basically the exact same thing. Its one of the things I am very proud of as a South African because we have lots of other social issues we need to deal with In Finland do you guys allow same sex marriages? Currently in Finland it is possible for same-sex couples to register themselves to be in civil union, such unions don't have all the same rights (some economical things, changing sure name to your spouse's needs separate application [which isn't free], adoption rights as couple, etc.) as civil marriages, which is why there was campaign for civil bill that would make all civil unions to be same in eyes of law. Bill is currently in Finnish Parliament, which will vote about bill in September. Okay thanks for explaining, well hopefully the Finnish government will pass this bill and give truly equal right to same sex marriages

Well this is one point we clearly won't agree on. As I mentioned numerous times an irrefutable part of all previous Romance implementations is seeing the person and the interaction that entails. This is a foundation of Romance and the suggestion that this expectation is actually juvenile is just silly. Its like saying "we don't need to actually explore the dungeon or crypt to make it a worthwhile and exciting RP experience, we will just look at a map of the dungeon and the monsters will appear" Its not the same experience, sorry Nonek. And no amount of spin will change that. But once again lets bring marriage in as a type of interaction but not as a replacement for Romance?

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ? Why do you presume that they are (only) wives? I researched subject little bit when helped with equal marriage civil bill campaign in here Finland, because allowance of polygamy marriage is thing that always rises on surface when one speaks about allowance of same-sex marriage, so I though it's probably better know at least little bit about subject. In South Africa our constitution allows same sex marriages but we call it civil unions, but its basically the exact same thing. Its one of the things I am very proud of as a South African because we have lots of other social issues we need to deal with In Finland do you guys allow same sex marriages?

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ?

See, that's the part that pisses me off in this thread. Someone is sincerely suggesting something constructive, like the marriage option, and then Bruce pretends to get their point but ultimately just falls back to 'promancers gonna promance like they always did, herp a derp'. Just because it is not immersive for you doesn't mean it's not for other people. Just because some bad romance is immersive for you, it doesn't mean it is for other people. Speak for yourselve all day long if you want, but please stop with this hypocrisy of claiming what is acceptable for a romance for a group of people while at the same time criticizing people for stating their personal levels of acceptance for a romance, just because they don't want one. For what it's worth, romance involves building a connection for the player, yes, but that's about it. There is no magical checklist to achieve that, it either works or it doesn't. If you need to constantly look at a sprite and have same badly written dialogue with them to achieve that, good for you. But you shouldn't pretend that it's the only way. Sometimes it's better to show less and let imagination do its part. You pretend you want deep relationships, but every single suggestion about them that excludes the feely-touchy part, like long distance-marriage or a couple of old people is denied by you. That's superficial at best. In the end, all I get from your posts is that you want some hot chicks running around with you, where you have the option to get them into bed. And that is ok per se, but don't pretend to care for deep relationships if it is looks before everything else to you. Wowzers dude, no need to get so worked up. Its just a debate around Romance. I am worried that you are actually getting pissed off because I am disagreeing with a certain view, how do you react in RL when someone has a real argument with you? With all due respects this is a discussion around Romance and the merits of Romance in RPG. There isn't a single implementation of Romance in any RPG I know of where the Romance implementation doesn't involve interacting with someone that you can actually see. Now you can disagree with me but that's just the reality. And if the marriage idea involves a scenario where you never see your Romance partner because its a wife at home where I can't initiate some dialogue the RP experience will obviously be diluted, and I doubt this will ever be considered an acceptable form of Romance? I am sure it will have other advantages but I feel its a stretch to call it Romance because once again Romance involves interacting with the person? So in summary the marriage idea is a good idea but not as a substitute for Romance.

Good question, the abhorrent bill that was passed, and now overturned, was criminalizing the act of consensual same sex. Not the idea of being attracted to someone of the same sex which as you mentioned would be impossible to enforce