BruceVC

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are. I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory? yes but lets not be pedantic I am not religious but it is a valid point to say " Islamic extremism " is the problem, not " Christian conservatism "

Relevant. Last I checked, no known President or leader in the history of forever claimed to be an absolute expert in every field. This is why even dictators have advisors that are specialized in those fields and there to provide sound advice and wisdom. And last I checked, Sanders plan to break up the banks was largely a plan of having the Treasury Department comprise a list of which institutions pose an economic threat should they fail, in which case they would be forced to correct themselves over time, though the manner of correction would be up to discussion and negotiation and not something that the banks themselves would have no say in. That seems completely reasonable, completely realistic and completely rational to me. Of course it's not a simple task to achieve and not something achievable overnight, that's why you do it over time and that's why you engage the banks themselves and demand compliance in devising ways to reduce the impact of a single institution while avoiding harm to the dealings of the institution itself as much as possible and without severely damaging the global economy. To continue to press onward status quo only has one outcome: the rich get richer. That *is* dangerous for the global economy. If the poor cannot afford to purchase or deal with the rich, guess what happens to the value of currency itself. We are all tied together, and a market where cash is not in constant flow from one hand to another is an unhealthy market. A market's cash flow works best when money is evenly distributed because it means all parties involved have about equal purchasing power, pricing of products at a reasonable sum as well as the value of currency itself is easily devised, and people are unquestionably capable of receiving the goods they desire. You are basically arguing that because something may be difficult or complex, it must be impossible OR we just shouldn't bother and "admit defeat." We cannot do that, because what you are proposing is more or less procrastination. You are ignoring the growing problem of economic instability and convincing yourself "it's fine." It's not. The day when you and I cannot afford a loaf of bread is the same day that people stop caring how many stacks of cash Bill Gates has because that currency trade has proven too volatile to be worthwhile. The richest 1% will continue to grow wealthier because there is simply more earning power in having money to spend. This is not an issue exclusive to the lower and middle classes; no, that issue would eventually affect the rich as well. You are hearing a mantra of "no it's impossible, keep going" because for the time being the issue hasn't come back around to bite them in the ass yet. If you would like to name a specific issue with some tangible plan that Bernie has named, I'd be happy to hear it. But to claim "I cannot picture it working, therefore it won't" is not an argument. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306?cid=bitly http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/upshot/yes-bernie-sanders-knows-something-about-breaking-up-banks.html?_r=0 Just some links, once again I like Sanders but even in the first link the rhetoric is apparent and of course he does have some very reasonable points like the outsourcing of jobs but he says Daily News: Okay. Well, would you name, say, three American corporate giants that are destroying the national fabric? Sanders: JPMorgan Chase, and virtually every other major bank in this country. Let me be very clear, all right? I believe that we can and should move to what Pope Francis calls a moral economy. He quotes the Pope as someone who he feels is a good example of someone to follow. Now dont get me wrong I really like and respect the new Pope. He is the first Pope who seems utterly unconcerned with materialistic things and he rejects opulence But the new Pope also embraces the poorer and impoverished countries in South America and Africa which is good but he thinks there failed or weak economies is a fault of other countries. End of the day the Pope is just a nice person but he bases his views on emotions and not logic Sanders I see as the same. But to be honest after reading those links I am not clear on what benefits Sanders and his supporters think they will get from this break-up?

Sup All Jaded inspired me to make this post, this is to all EU forum members How do you feel about the UK possibly leaving? Do you care ....does it matter?

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps... I am very glad you are asking these questions, sometimes I feel you guys in the EU just dont care or realize how beneficial the EU is So I agree, its not a nice thought to think of someone like the UK leaving but the reality is no other country can just leave because of the single currency and the fact the majority of countries in the EU have had to sacrifice old financial structures to integrate. This is also normal and what was required You may not believe me but I promise you its very relevant....there is no leaving the EU unless a country is prepared for a economic meltdown....thats why the UK is different Now being forced to stay may not seem ideal but it is, so people will complain but no one will leave. To be honest I hope we see a reaffirming of commitment and loyalty from some EU members, like PIGS countries, and they contribute towards the deficit from the UK leaving But to be fair you cant expect the East Europeans to fix the gap but never forget the loyalty of the Scandinavian countries The EU will adapt and survive but yes it will be a initial revenue impact

Are you suggesting that with the status quo, the amassed wealth of the 1% will eventually trickle down to the middle class and the poor and then everything will be great? Not at all but why have you convinced yourself this was ever going to happen? This whole 1 % attack is just something people love to support as suddenly that type of obscene wealth is unpopular and he could theoretically do this with no real impact My concern with Sanders was the whole " I will break up the global investment banks " This you absolutely cannot do, Sanders has no idea how this would even be accomplished but why would he think he could possibly know more about whats good for banking than people like Janet Yellen or the erudite Ben Bernanke from the Federal Reserve. In 2008 the US government prudently intervened to save the US banking sector and by proxy the world from going into a recession At that point the US could have forced major changes through if the like of Benanke or Timothy Geithner had really believed the " banks were too big " But both men understood the reality of how global banks are structured and how breaking them up would only negatively impact them So my issue with Bernie is how he could have inadvertently created a economic meltdown in the USA

You guys must read the comments on this video, people have a very negative view of Islam

As you know I'm very vocal about my support for things like the West. But I understand that not everyone, even a resident of a country, may want to debate politics But Im glad you are invested in this thread as it is important but it also highlights how divisive the whole BREXIT campaign has been So my family as I mentioned have ties to the UK so you and I are in the same boat, I believe in the EU but its a trading block and even if the UK leaves it wont impact any military alliances So my first loyalty has to be to the UK and what the citizens decide. The UK is in a unique position to leave the EU and to recover and sustain itself economically but this will take 10-18 months But if the UK leaves these are the things that will 90 % happen, so when they do happen dont stress and think OMG !! We made a destructive and fatal decision. This is to be expected but some newspapers will make a big deal about it If the UK leaves the pound will suffer some loss as low risk investors pull out and some speculators sell currency. Maybe 10-18 % maximum. But remember the UK economic fundamentals are solid within 12 months it will recover Yes certain corporations are indeed holding back on investment to see how things work out....this is also normal so dont see this as serious Will the EU allow the UK access to the free trade zone ?Impossible to predict but the UK will prudently renegotiate other deals You may hear stories of " international companies leaving the UK " . I dont buy this one for one second, why do business make major investments in the UK? Its because of London and the reality of the UK being an excellent overall choice. These business wont now just pack up and leave ..in fact the large ones will see this as a way to renegotiate things like tax with the UK Finally to our friends who are part of the EU dont think if the UK leaves this is the end of the EU dream, absolutely not. The EU will continue to be a successful union but with less overall revenue which it will address And new trade deals will happen with the UK who will always be part of Europe in principle

The economy will destroy itself, just like it almost did in 07. The rise of the populist right and left is a reaction to global capitalism being stretched to it's limits and on the verge of collapse. I suppose its possible but I dont see any economic data that suggests this? What are you basing this on

Honesty is always the best policy. Can I please tell you what is the relevant outcome ...on the day of the actual election Hilary will beat Trump and mark my words when they break down the demographics you will see that the vast majority of women voted for Hilary and correctly assured her victory Trump has horribly offended and misunderstood this voting block and I really want to see his face in the final results ...do you think he will still be laughing and pandering to that sexist and rude group of supporters who actually think its funny to call any women " a fat, disgusting pig "

So what is your solution here? An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start. I have a issue with this video but its not because what the guy is saying is propaganda or necessarily false This video is exactly what you DONT show to Muslims because its a selective analysis of the reality of Islamic extremism...how does he expect any Muslim to respond? So the reality nowadays is this, Islamic extremism has morphed into ISIS.....Al-Qaeda is gone and ISIS has very different short term goals to AQ. So more Muslims are killed by ISIS than other groups and only a small percentage of Sunni Muslims globally join ISIS...so it really is an extremist element But what really does irritate me is the lack of criticism I see from SA Muslims towards any extremist attacks ...they would rather blame the West and Bush and Blair So he raises some relevant points but its unfair overall message

So what is your solution here? I may be wrong here Hurlshot but I noticed you sometimes have a very good way of supporting an idea or social development without bias because you believe in the principle that the outcome is a good one and constructive For example, I think you firmly believe in the principle of religious freedom in the USA and you also believe that Muslims should be able to practice there religion in the USA as the majority of muslims are not extremists and you are 100 % correct. I hope no one is suggesting that all Muslims are extremists But the other guys are also correct, yes we must condemn homophobia from some US Christians but the people involved in Islamic extremism are way worse than any US conservative preacher spreading hate speech So you both right, you ask what to do next? We continue to condemn any homophobia from Christian conservatives We welcome Muslims into our communities as long as they understand the social expectation which is actually advanced in the USA We reject and condemn any Islamic extremism but we dont say " all Muslims are like this "

Yes but those examples are from an era where Colonialism was real, my ancestors the British did believe the British empire was ordained to govern the world....the Europeans genuinely believed they were superior Aparthied occurred after that time and SA was the last bastion of white control in the whole continent And what is unique is you had 8 % of the country controlling 92% of the population.....then Apartheid ended and despite the 92 % being the actual ruling party they are dependent on maybe 3 % of the 8 % to run the economy and provide a framework for many things What example in the world is similar?

I appreciate you input, I know you have a deep intellectual understanding of these matters but also you have you own personal journey however you also dont understand the whole SA narrative, no one who has not lived here and then been part of unpacking the Apartheid legacy will understand the nuances and reality. But let explain in a quick summary why we are different For 50 years a system was enforced on all black South Africans that looked to rewire what makes people human, it was only allowed to continue for so long because of the Cold War For those 50 years the majority of black people had no exposure to things like economics, history, science and had no knowledge of the outside world When Apartheid ended most black South Africans started participating in the normal world but from a position where they had no experience or understanding of anything outside South Africa This is the reality of SA where black South Africans are absolutely becoming more active and informed about things that matter but they are also susceptible and deeply impacted by what white South Africans say ...even uninformed white racists White and Black people in SA are inextricably linked and depend on each other to transform the country This is a unique social and political reality and most people dont understand it but we do

@ KP I'm glad Sanders got involved in the nomination, he raised issues that resonated with people and this type of intervention can only strengthen the institutions of Democracy (actually I dont really believe that but I was told its the right thing to say ) But I do like him, he means well. But we dont want to destroy the US economy just to appeal to left wing populist rhetoric

Do Americans have a problem with Radical Christianity and what is the FBI doing to keep arms out of their hands? Thing being, of course, that if it were one of his congregation who did the shooting instead of a 2nd gen Muslim Afghan you'd have most of the people who want it to be all Radical Islam insisting it wasn't a religious issue this time and most of the people who don't want to mention Radical Islam insisting this was a religious issue, this time. Weirdest panel conversation I've seen in ages was over the question of whether the Orlando shooting was ISIS inspired or an attack on the LGBT community, as if they were wholly separate concepts and it had to be one or the other but not both. Because apparently ISIS isn't anti gay or something andor someone cannot be inspired to be anti gay by them or join them because they were already anti gay, I couldn't follow either side's 'logic' but they seemed utterly committed to it. And, of course, both sides insisted that the other was politicising the issue... Its really not that complicated, it was a hate crime and an attack on the USA and he was inspired and swore fealty to ISIS ISIS still need to be destroyed and certain countries will still face potential attacks

Tomorrow for lunch I have decided to make myself a cheese fondue, I have perfected the recipe and always experiment with 3-4 Swiss or French cheeses But tomorrow I will be trying something different..I will be using a dark red wine instead of the normal dry white wine ..lets hope it works

Okay but where did you get the number of 1400 from...Muslim rape gangs in the UK? I have never heard of such a term...do you have links ? But I do agree sometimes in its attempts to be inclusive the EU can make mistakes . http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3437252/Twelve-men-repeatedly-gang-raped-abused-vulnerable-teenage-schoolgirl-saw-utterly-worthless-jailed-total-140-YEARS.html Well played by the way, I remember the whole Rotherham disgrace....its those types of reprehensible events that really annoy me Oerwinde are you worried about the future as far as extremism is concerned ? I think its inevitable. You have the collectivists becoming more and more extreme in their attacks on individualists, and the islamists emboldened by collectivist support, and individualists being pushed further to extremism by the threats of Islam and the collectivists. Whats interesting with the Orlando thing is it is causing a rift. Conservatives are coming out in support of gays and the threat of Islam, with regressives coming out in support of Islam. With the regressives attacking a lot of gays as "cis white males" and conservatives embracing them, you're starting to see some major K shifts amongst gays. Do you think the West faces a real threat that could eventually lead to a war or something similar

Dont get annoyed by this, people like this I consider fundamentalist Christians and dont represent the views of the majority of Americans or Christians ...very few people nowadays in the US would be this open about there bigotry I am not sure about your assessment of very few people, there has been quite lot people in twitter and facebook that have openly celebrated this attack. Although all don't necessary directly declare death for gays but aren't really that sympathetic towards people being killed just because who they love https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJcI7zcBfc You right of course and I'm not making excuses but until 10-15 years ago Conservative Christians were very strong in the USA and they were opposed to homosexuality. Times have changed but your old school ministers and preachers wont change

Dont get annoyed by this, people like this I consider fundamentalist Christians and dont represent the views of the majority of Americans or Christians ...very few people nowadays in the US would be this open about there bigotry

How long do you think someone deserves to go to prison for being an idiot? And, another thing to consider; locking her up won't change her being a racist. Perhaps she should be killed? After all it's the only way you can be absolutely sure she will not say bad things or think bad thoughts in the future. No we dont need to kill anyone, once we see real legal consequences for these types of comments these types of public statements will stop But they will still THINK them Bruce! Don't you see? It doesn't make a difference if they say them... they are THINKING them! Sooner or later a thought will slip out or they will bet mad and blurt it out and the cause of civil rights will be set all they way back to apartheid. Kill them... kill them all. That is the only way to be sure! The only other option will be to create a new government department and remand everyone who thinks racist thoughts over to them to be re-educated. Maybe after years of intense physical and psychological torture, I mean therapy you can correct their thinking. You can even call that new agency "The Ministry of Love". Catchy isn't it? This is what I have never explained, what would you say if I told you that racial tension has the potential to undermine and collapse the new South Africa. Would that change your mind.....now this would be a unique perspective because this would never happen in the USA but please understand it does have the potential Not really. If the racist screed of one idiot who has no power to do anything but piss people off is enough to collapse a whole country into a race war I suggest you get out now because it is inevitable. If someone says something offensive the proper course is to criticize them, shame them, vilify them or ignore them. Not lock them up. I not sure if I ever acknowledged this but what you and Gromnir have been saying is 100% correct and very relevant to any first world country and most countries for that matter...but please believe me due to Apartheid SA faces unique challengers which requires these unusual steps I dont mean there will be a war, I mean a populist party could come to power and unintentionally destroy the economy through policies like nationalization

I always forget who supports what SJ campaigns on these forums but you a big supporter of the LGBT community ? Okay but where did you get the number of 1400 from...Muslim rape gangs in the UK? I have never heard of such a term...do you have links ? But I do agree sometimes in its attempts to be inclusive the EU can make mistakes . http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3437252/Twelve-men-repeatedly-gang-raped-abused-vulnerable-teenage-schoolgirl-saw-utterly-worthless-jailed-total-140-YEARS.html Well played by the way, I remember the whole Rotherham disgrace....its those types of reprehensible events that really annoy me Oerwinde are you worried about the future as far as extremism is concerned ? If I might interject; I'm finding extremist as the only viable solution as I often see moderates and reasonable people not taking a stand or not being driven enough to actually make a difference. As I wish change and for these kinds of events to stop I believe extremism to be a good option at least until the pendulum swings the other way entirely and we are back to a repressive state. But I try not to think too much of the cyclical nature of humanity as i'm not patient or kind enough to tolerate it, so I just feel contempt for all of it and I don't like that. You are always welcome to interject Do you mind going into more detail, what change do you want and do you want a repressive state? I don't want a repressive state but I just see as an inevitable outcome since people can't seem (at least on the first world) to know when to draw the line and stop their politicking. So lest I fall into the trap of cynicism and begin to think of ways to ruin humanity I choose to wash my hand from the whole affair and leave it to pompous internet warriors who believe that their ramblings are going to change the world. Well you have insights that many others may not have due to your connection to Cuba so your opinion is always interesting I don't think that it was all that different from Joburg, except a bit tamer...a lot tamer actually. Your history is impacted directly by ideology I imagine, if you dont mind me asking how do you feel about the new relations with Cuba? Do you care....do you feel betrayed?

How long do you think someone deserves to go to prison for being an idiot? And, another thing to consider; locking her up won't change her being a racist. Perhaps she should be killed? After all it's the only way you can be absolutely sure she will not say bad things or think bad thoughts in the future. No we dont need to kill anyone, once we see real legal consequences for these types of comments these types of public statements will stop But they will still THINK them Bruce! Don't you see? It doesn't make a difference if they say them... they are THINKING them! Sooner or later a thought will slip out or they will bet mad and blurt it out and the cause of civil rights will be set all they way back to apartheid. Kill them... kill them all. That is the only way to be sure! The only other option will be to create a new government department and remand everyone who thinks racist thoughts over to them to be re-educated. Maybe after years of intense physical and psychological torture, I mean therapy you can correct their thinking. You can even call that new agency "The Ministry of Love". Catchy isn't it? You funny I need to explain something fundamental, I can imagine my suggestions must seem naive, misplaced and you think I'm pandering to some false sense of moral code. In most countries you would be right but SA is in a unique position due to out past This is what I have never explained, what would you say if I told you that racial tension has the potential to undermine and collapse the new South Africa. Would that change your mind.....now this would be a unique perspective because this would never happen in the USA but please understand it does have the potential

I find it more irritating than anything. And while you may say its hyperbole and not to take it seriously.. That is pretty much the campaigns as they've been run for the last few months. You don't get informed decisions when EVERY side is spending more time demonising the opposition rather than having valid discussion. I understand your frustration, one of the main reasons for all this hyperbole is no one actually knows what the outcome will be So economists and other prominent public figures are operating in an unknown reality ..hence the grandstanding and extreme views

How long do you think someone deserves to go to prison for being an idiot? And, another thing to consider; locking her up won't change her being a racist. Perhaps she should be killed? After all it's the only way you can be absolutely sure she will not say bad things or think bad thoughts in the future. Did you watch the video? She wasn't just being an idiot, she said some of the most pathetic and ignorant things I have ever heard But we have now started fining extreme racist comments http://www.destinyconnect.com/2016/06/10/penny-sparrow-slapped-r150-000-fine/ No we dont need to kill anyone, once we see real legal consequences for these types of comments these types of public statements will stop You think I'm being unreasonable but I'm not as its part of our legacy that this is addressed

Come on dont take it seriously, its hyperbole and people using spurious guilt tactics