BruceVC

My best friend who immigrated to Oz 18 months ago is back in SA for 1 month so we had an awesome reunion party today at a really festive restaurant ...loads of shooters, laughs and good food. It was great to see him and his wife again, I'll be seeing lots of them over the next 4 weeks

No, this is just another example of the constant obsession you guys have with feeling the need to highlight any possible " issue" that gets directed at Clinton....surly you cant be this concerned with such trivial perspectives ?

volo I dont hate men? Why would you think that...we just need to acknowledge some societal realities like there is rampant abuse of women and children in different levels of society and most of the times these crimes are committed by men. So lets not deny this ...abuse is a problem in society and the groups that are the greatest target of this are women and children

I am a very reasonable person and I firmly believe in a more fair and equitable society Hillary Clinton flaws and the negative views some people have of her pale in comparison to the numerous issues I have with Trump Trump is a disgrace and a hypocrite. He panders to a pointless dream of what " makes the USA great ", this dream will never be realized even if he becomes president. This dream of his involves bigotry and a negative narrative of what defines the USA I absolutely support Hilary for a number of reasons but one of the main ones is she says things " lets make the USA great together " . She is also honest about the current state of the USA, its really not that bad so I support a more positive and constructive view of the future that the Democrats espouse

This is why my biggest outrage with this election is the media corruption and why I'm quicker to condemn Clinton than Trump. Screwing with the media extends BEYOND the election cycle and ruins any sense of trust there was. It creates doubt and discourages people from trusting any news or even bothering with watching. Had I been that woman...? I would've purposefully saved my accusations til after the election if I wished to be taken seriously, for that exact reason. It has nothing to do with people doubting Trump is capable of such a thing and everything to do with people doubting the media even more. Now it's just sex scandal #7 that they doubt, but in the future it could be much more serious topics that are disputed. Guys I absolutely believe these types of accusations, there is real precedent and Trump has offended women on numerous occasions Because of the actual comments Trump has made I have taken a certain stance when any women accuses Trump "guilty until proven innocent " And at the same time you refuse to accept anything negative about Hillary Clinton as being true despite the fact there is a long history and tons of evidence that is not just "he said she said" Sorry Bruce, credibility = 0 GD !!! Thats rude, you know in the 18th century this comment would be considered an attack on my integrity. I would have been insulted and I would have demanded satisfaction ....we would have met for a duel tomorrow morning at 6 am!!

This is why my biggest outrage with this election is the media corruption and why I'm quicker to condemn Clinton than Trump. Screwing with the media extends BEYOND the election cycle and ruins any sense of trust there was. It creates doubt and discourages people from trusting any news or even bothering with watching. Had I been that woman...? I would've purposefully saved my accusations til after the election if I wished to be taken seriously, for that exact reason. It has nothing to do with people doubting Trump is capable of such a thing and everything to do with people doubting the media even more. Now it's just sex scandal #7 that they doubt, but in the future it could be much more serious topics that are disputed. Guys I absolutely believe these types of accusations, there is real precedent and Trump has offended women on numerous occasions Because of the actual comments Trump has made I have taken a certain stance when any women accuses Trump "guilty until proven innocent "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/22/trump-threatening-nearly-one-dozen-sexual-assault-accusers-vows-to-sue/ Guys I do appreciate the fact you trying to understand gender equality and not come across as unintentionally sexist or dismissive of sexual assault but these comments you made are exactly the comments you musn't make. Trust me on this one, lets just say we can all be glad there are no women on this forum as this would have indubitably irritated them One way to " confirm " if a post is sexist would be to ask " if I was a women how would I feel if someone asked me this post "

"I know what you really mean despite the fact that you claim to mean something completely different!" ("I shan't be fooled by your stalinist lies" remains unsaid but strongly implied.) I have no idea what volo is talking about ? volo are you talking to me?

Just had a few drinks and dinner at Hooters and tomorrow I'm taking Bronwynn for lunch so its been a good weekend

reading comprehension lvl: volo I so glad someone else noticed this, sometimes I think its just me. At times volo responds in a way that doesnt have ANYTHING to do with what I'm asking him....do you think he is trolling me?

Okay I didnt realize you were saying you come from white privilege? Are you sure this is accurate....if you dont mind what is the reason you say you come from white privilege ?

Not a bad change, US election discussion has been SSDD here for a while. Also we are discussing how people are feeling due to the election....surly this be relevant but Meshugger seems not to even notice this as he lacks empathy?

I think you're grievously misunderstanding the people you seem to be arguing against here. No alum, this is different and relevant. I have a hard time treating the stance of anybody who seems to be incapable of grasping the concept of "it is possible to acknowledge that certain segments of society are benefiting from social structures that have their origin in deeply unsavory historical events without holding the very same people personally responsible for those events" as "different and relevant". Yes but to be fair this is more of an exploratory session to get some personal data, I know what you saying but in this case I dont want to judge anyone because then they wont be so keen to share Funny enough the words " white privilege " are really used to describe white people, its not unreasonable as white people didn't suffer from Apartheid. Did I mention this to you as these are exact words ...I have no problem admitting white privilege. My dads side of the family are bankers and I dont lie about that ...yes I was very fortunate growing up/ Volo there are many things you need to accept and face, I can help you accept these things? You need to do this for yourself....dont do it because you want to impress the forum? But you need to committed?

I think you're grievously misunderstanding the people you seem to be arguing against here. No alum, this is different and relevant. I know you are very good at assessing sophistry on these forums and normally you are right....but you also good at understanding much of someone like Meshuggers discombobulation when he makes some of his almost artistic comments I like debating Meshugger but sometimes I have no clue what he is talking about and frankly I have no interest in looking up words that are part of the whole Internet vernacular that you guys use I ask people to make a point in plain English Anyway this unhappiness in the USA is not what you think, its real but not very well explained or understood. I dont mean Trump supporters....they have become like this cult of ignorant and unquestioning zealots....they dont care what Trump says or how he comes across....they dont care. Its a very bizarre and invidious reality to accept if you live in the USA. Yes they about 35 % of the white population but thats a large number Anyway I mean other non-Trump supporters

Empathy is a thing, though. The world you live in is the result of history. If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good. Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history. In SA though, they seem to burn history instead: http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21693278-students-are-throwing-colonial-art-pyre-whiteness-burning This article made me laugh, its true but it needs some context and its hard to explain to people living outside SA So the reality is simple, the majority of black students who damage property and destroyed so called paintings and made comments like " symbols of the coloniser" dont have an understanding of history or what is really significant. Most of them sadly wont make it past first year These " down with whiteness " comments are just rhetoric, you dont take it seriously because its irrelvat to the reality of what matters in any country where we need to build the economy Trust me, I share much more entertaining things than that ...check this out populist movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_First_Land_First Read there manifesto

This is a good response and it ties into my broader point but just to clarify some things you mentioned, please go into more detail in the following What do you think are the main problems people want to fix Who is raising these problems In what way do you feel the outcome results in people feeling they victims

Oh I must clarify that colonization comment, I absolutely accept the role the UK played as a Colonial power but I dont feel guilty about what my ancestors did. The UK for example has done much more good than bad in the world and thats what matters So I can share something with you that I have learnt that has allowed me to understand and rationalize many of the issues and expectations from black South Africans. This understanding I have gained has been critical in allowing me to be part of the new SA without taking things personally. Now what I have come to realize is many of you guys in the USA are grappling with these same issues,many people on this forum who live in the USA have expressed degrees of frustration or depression about where they perceive the USA is going Now just to be clear I have never mentioned this before because I thought this was uniquely a South African\African problem and until recently most people on this forum didnt appear interested in having this type of debate Now before I go into detail I need to clarify one or two things about who this applies to, let me know if this is applicable to you You are a white person who feels you are getting blamed for certain social and or political events that you have no influence over You feel there is a degree of double standards from minorities and how they blame certain events on You are really uncertain and worried about the future Also I dont mean to pick on certain members but if you want to have this debate in good faith you cannot have a posting etiquette like volo when we discuss certain issue, I always try to respond to him but his comments are irrational and illogical LK, its impossible to tell him anything because he has convinced himself his long posts are reflections of reality. This is not LK fault but its a symptom of someone who has basically spend too much time engaging people on the Internet and has forgotten normal human interaction Also this is not about intelligence, so don't think I am suggesting I think I am cleverer than you guys. This is just about an important insight into some global and local trends that I have noticed are common in most Western countries like the USA So if you want to have this debate do you mind just summarizing how you feel about the current state of the USA...be honest there is no right or wrong response

Bruce please trust me. You will fail. Just on the basis of you being white and representing white people mentality. Try not to listen what they are saying but what they mean by it. If you want to reach them you need to encourage black SA to oppose their view, but they cannot just emulate white mentality and argumentation. They need to approach those guys with black mentality and their argumentation need to come from their roots and culture. Its an interesting question you have asked, no one has ever asked me that before on these forums So my commitment to the new South Africa is complicated to explain but just to answer your question. The objective really is for everyone to finish grade 12 and then get a degree or equivalent certification so they can work in corporate and the private sector ....but only about 20 % of all black students get to this point Most black students drop out and never complete university but I cant help them. The reasons for this failure is varied but I cant help them. There is a distinction, its not a big deal outside SA but matters to me Boer\Afrikaans people are white South Africans but I'm English. The architects of Apartheid were all Afrikaans ....as an English South African we did other things like Colonialism but I am not taking blame for Apartheid

Examples?

Just because an African American says " Trump should get elected " that doesnt mean he is right but I watched that criticism of Obama and it is unfounded and based on this false narrative that some people assumed just because Obama is black he would only be concerned with the issues of AA Its like when he first came on a tour to Africa and made his famous speech which wasnt well received by some African leaders because some African dictators assumed Obama would be nice to them because they black http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/world/africa/12prexy.html?_r=0

Its funny because your general view of " We need something new, because the old and what we have presently isn't cutting it " it is something many people throughout the world believe but the truth is the system doesnt mean to be destroyed, that wouldnt help We just need to make some structural changes to be more ....inclusive? You right, I didnt explain the relevance to this thread I wanted to say at the moment there are several global populist movements in most countries. What is relevant to all of us who live in Western countries is these populist movements are something that manifests itself in our countries in different forms and creates degrees of chaos, anxiety and sometimes depression or concern for the future What I wanted to highlight is this whole USA election and the general levels of frustration from many of US forum friends is understandable ....but imagine living in SA, you have people believing you can recreate science in an African prism because the current education system isnt designed with an African consideration and doesn't represent " South African values " Its nonsense of course Uh, branding every emerging movement as populist will bite you in the ass in the long. Putting the arise with Duterte in the Philippines with South African blacks claiming that witchdoctor ju-ju belongs in the university curriculum is superficial at best. Well if you can name just one populist movement that we have seen in the last 10 years and has made a meaningful difference to the world and should have been implemented in some way please let me know? Im not automatically anti-populist movements its just they all seem to lack depth or actual substantive ways to makw them viable...they normally about emotions?

You right, I didnt explain the relevance to this thread I wanted to say at the moment there are several global populist movements in most countries. What is relevant to all of us who live in Western countries is these populist movements are something that manifests itself in our countries in different forms and creates degrees of chaos, anxiety and sometimes depression or concern for the future What I wanted to highlight is this whole USA election and the general levels of frustration from many of US forum friends is understandable ....but imagine living in SA, you have people believing you can recreate science in an African prism because the current education system isnt designed with an African consideration and doesn't represent " South African values " Its nonsense of course

Ok. I understand that not all SA students think that gravity was invented and forced upon them by colonists. But the question is how many students oppose that view? Minority/majority? It's like saying "don't worry not all of this dishes are poisoned". I would like some specifics. And while there is a ritual for smiting an lightning on to a person, Svarog requires at least three blood sacrifices so its highly inneficient. It is a valid question because what if that perspective represented what all black students thought....the country would be doomed No that type of " anti-white"..." anti-European " perspective represents about 20 % of the students. Its normal in SA, I debate people who think that everyday You cant get annoyed if you live here by that type of event....if you did you may be annoyed all the time

All power to them, decolonise whole Africa I say! You cant decolonize Africa because it is already decolonized This " idea " is unique to SA and only groups of protesting students believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e2lq4QpQXw This video is going to shock many people, normally I wouldn't post such a video as it creates a bad impression of South Africa and the level of insight some University students have ...please understand this is not what all students think but we have militant and disruptive student movements in SA and one of there " objectives " is the decolonisation of Universities ...they also think they can adopt core university subjects to an "African " view. Its a well meaning but utterly misplaced movement ...this video shows how bad it can get