SArgentus

Thanks for the great discussion and inputs, I'm definitely considering psion more now for better build alignment towards casting and easier focus generation against tough enemies. Wizard also seems like an interesting choice which also would allow more chanter abilities and passives thanks to grimoires. I do some testing with the console, but usually those tests are not super representative of the varied in-game encounters, thus I like to hear other peoples experiences (or near experiences). Regarding chanter invocations, I am wondering how well White worms (with the polishing mod, thus no disease keyword) and And Evil turned away compare with other invocations? From my testing, they seem a bit underwhelming compared to Seven nights and So Singt.

Thanks, I guess you are right that I might be trying to do too many things at the same time with two casting classes in addition to resource generation for one of them.. perhaps I should give Psion another spin, although I wonder how well it plays with bellower compared to troubadour (perhaps even more low focus powers since the chanter side will be doing things less often). Comparing soul annihilation damage output on this MC vs one with a rogue also really accentuates the importance of good passives and buffs, although as you say this will likely be fine due the base strength of the classes. And I say that I want to avoid abuse grave calling as I fear that this one-trick-pony might get tiresome quickly and thus I will want to respec or change directions if that happens - but I do imagine it makes it quite hard to answer my questions of viability when one of the stronger "cheeses" are on the table - sort of

So I am returning to Deadfire again – meaning endlessly browsing the forums and theorycrafting builds rather than playing the damn game! Hopefully I can get myself started after a few questions.. I have been looking at a SC chanter – I really like the passive buffs from chants and the powerful offensive invocations (Eld Nary’s is awesome!). However I find that the gameplay can be a bit unengaging after casting the first invocation and using up the bonus phrases from Sasha’s singing scimitar while also having trouble when facing singular tough enemies (although the powerful chanter summons are likely part of the answer here). So I was thinking whether introducing a multiclass to the build would improve this – specifically, I am considering cipher soul blade which would add some powerful DoTs, CC, and burst damage with soul annihilation. My problem is whether this combination would actually synergize (and make up for the loss of SC abilities and PL) beyond covering each other’s weaknesses somewhat: From the perspective of the chanter, cipher mainly adds something to do while waiting for phrases, but does not empower their casting beyond borrowed instincts adding a considerable accuracy boon. Cipher benefits from access to chants which range from okay (e.g. burn lash, fortitude debuffing) to powerful (combining Many lives with grave calling or wahai poraga for focus generation or WoTEP defensive parry with disengagement defense from The Fox and Silver knights chants). I don’t intend to over abuse grave calling which would likely trivialize the game even for less experienced people like me. I am taking inspiration from this thread BTW. So, do you guys think this multiclass combination is worth it (using above tricks for additional focus generation) compared to the well liked troubadour/psion combo with fully passive resource generation? And does the lack of considerable boni towards focus generation (compared to a martial multi) make soul annihilation less viable? (I see it as a burst damage attack when DoTs have already been applied and not the only cipher spell I will be casting) Regarding chanter subclass, skald seems obvious for cheap offensive invocations and common resource generation with the cipher, but currently I am leaning more towards bellower, which would give me more bang for the buck in terms of damage per time spent casting, leaving more time for cipher spells and normal attacks. Troubadour seems to be commonly accepted as (perhaps) the best subclass choice for quick phrase generation and its interactions with the Many lives chant in this case, which leaves me wondering if the skeleton generation will be enough without quick recitation for focus generation purposes using grave calling or wahai poraga? And do you think bellower actually adds enough with its extra PLs considering it also saves some casting time? (perhaps generally, where do you think bellower fits in a multiclass context?) Lastly, what chanter spells are worth it with a multiclass? Eld Nary’s is awesome, but is the unupgraded version worth casting compared to other invocations (Perhaps with the bellower PLs?). How about the other offensive invocations? Her revenge seems very popular and for good reason, but is White worms and Seven nights and their upgrades worth the points spent? Apologies for the somewhat unordered post and questions and happy to hear input from the ever active deadfire community!

Not by my setup right now, does anyone know how this interacts with pain link from cipher?

Combined with the findings for the Squid's Grasps Certain Mutiny upgrade, this could potentially be a fun combo by confusing the chanter and charming the whole team for an extra +30% damage bonus + Squid's Grasp bonus - It does however disable abilities and the int debuff will hurt an already short duration, so it's probably in the very niche category.

Oh yeah, that's true! Didn't think about multiple conjurers - usually only test with one I understand. I'm also on the fence on whether it is too far from the original experience and would be jarring in context of the rest of the game - but generally moving away from the 1/encounter stuff like free action and reflexive mirror and towards something that changes how the class plays a bit more is good!

Didn't know about the buff staying either - might be a lot to change for some visual feedback with little mechanical change (besides a very weak summon). KW destroy would be with a new unique KW for familiars, so it should avoid destroying other summons/characters I'm currently working on changing it to a pseudo animal companion (Permanent summon, out of combat bonus which is what I originally though it would be when I read the subclass text - It's not really balanced however and way too good when you can choose the summon). I really like the idea of rewarding spell usage of your chosen school - like how evocation has a chance to echo, one could make similar bonuses for the each subclass: Conjurer could have a chance to summon imps on casting Conjuration spells Enchanter could have your free action bonus Illusion could either have illusory buffs or something similar to the Eye of Wael random illusion on hit (one per spellcast or low chance to avoid AOE shenanigans) Transmuter I'm not so sure about - I always felt that the brute transformation only covered one part of what I usually associate with the Transmutation school.. could be debuffing the enemies or buffing self or allies?

Adding on to the rebalancing of wizard subclasses, I've found that you can make the Conjurers familiar independent from other summons by using the "NotSummoned" SummonType instead - only issue is that it allows you to summon more than one familiar (Can be fixed by adding a keyworded destroy attack that triggers on start of casting like the Mage Slayer disruption), but I don't think it's a big issue since the PL bonus doesn't stack anyways.

I've played around quite a bit with cooldown effects back when I wanted to expand on the Black Jacket subclass - it can work, but it's either very obscure to the player or very ugly in the UI - but by any means, it's worth trying multiple fixes to see how it behaves

Damn, would have been nice to create extra fragile summons.. It's true that the monk multiclass will be strong throughout the whole game anyways, just a long time to wait for the souls combo! Yeah, Nalpazca would mainly be for spamming summons with a glass cannon build that couldn't handle being nuked itself (and thus needing an alternative way to generate wounds) but knowing that duplicate HP is independent from your own certainly makes this idea less interesting. Sage builds (especially with Helwalker) are still quite strong, you just won't be using your fists that much

If the Tactician bonus was set to a short Briliant buff (6 secs?) that doesn't get cleared by the requirements no longer being fulfilled, the cheese should no longer be possible.

Surprised no-one has responded to this yet, sounds like a fun build (I've mainly heard of Essential Phantom or Shroud of the Phantasm shenanigans, but at will 2x summons seems good if you metagame a bit to exploit it). Do you know whether the health of your duplicates are affected by your own character stats? Personally going with the suicide build, I would consider mixing Helwalker (for the Might bonus to spells) or Nalpazca (for wound generation - more spamming of Dichotomous Soul) with a caster - this would be to reduce constitution and other defensive stats of your character (and thus summons?) and simultaneously join in on nuking your own summons for those lovely Knockout effects, does anyone know whether revive on KO effects also work? Of course the most important thing to note is that Dichotomous Soul is a power level 7 ability - so you will spend a good part of the game without the keystone of your build.

Sorry, it seems that most people on the forums prefer RTwP, I've been quite hesitant towards turn-based myself as there is no way to change between the two modes and I can see some later battles becoming very tedious in turn-based. I have very little experience with turn-based, so take this with a grain of salt. 1. Cipher: It seems that the general consensus is that cipher runs in to action economy issues in turn-based as they need to attack to generate resources and can't attack if they choose to cast spells, this issue can partly be bypassed by the Psion subclass which generates focus passively. As for single classing, a few of the higher level cipher powers are a lot less useful in turn-based (Time parasite and defensive mindweb even more than usual). An ascendant or beguiler could also work, but is more effective in RTwP. 1. I believe wizard is still very good in turn-based, single classing will work great and martial builds with monk, fighter, or rogue should also be quite alright with free action self-buffing and citzal's lance. Multiclassing either with chanter will give access to strong summons that will make the game significantly easier. 2. Dex and action/recovery speed definetely seems less important in turn-based (and thus heavy armor is better), the exception being casters where high action speed will leave less time where you are vulnerable to interruption. I believe the range for grazes has been expanded quite a lot, so one could keep that in mind for perception and resolve/defense. Free actions are quite powerful, and the black jacket subclass is also better now due to this. 3. I have no idea. 4. Last I heard, the console ports are quite awfully ported. As an extra bonus, the PC version allows for great mods like the Community Patch and Balance Polishing mod if that is your thing.

You can confuse your character with the Tactician subclass + Powder Burns/flanked, definitely best with resolve resistance.

Damn, would have been quite a boost for Reaping Knives (probably too good though), thanks for checking - I'm away from my rig currently.. Happy holidays!