Monte Carlo

Taking Gromnir's points on board, I would say that the appeal of classes is that I suppose it helps immersion. Presumably the gamer wants immersion via an easily identifiable archetype - i.e. "I'm a warrior" or "I'm a wizard" (etc). I'm perfectly happy with this, but would argue that lots of games have actually achieved this without actually having classes. The Elder Scrolls: Lots of 'classes' that just bundle skill packages together. Dungeon Siege: As pointed out, a very simple system that merely develops the skills you use (I actually like it a lot). Even NWN2 allows you to choose an archetype within a class and the game will automatically level up for you. In pen & paper RuneQuest (which was completely classless, but had a sort of bronze age / druidical / pagan feel to it) you chose backgrounds (i.e. mercenary) which gave you a modest bundle of skills at the start of t he game, and everybody could use spells. If, however, you wanted to be a dude who'd been a mercenary to the age of twenty then decided to develop as a Rune Priest (i.e. a magic user with access to Rune Magic as opposed to Battle Magic - which everybody could use) then there was nothing stopping you. You could join cults - warrior cults, undead cults, nature cults (etc) tied to the setting that established the class meme for you. V. cool. But, at it's most basic, I think people like a character generation screen that gives them some archetypes, an idea of who and what their character is. Classes aren't the worst way of achieving that, but they ain't the best either and if DA uses three base classes to 'trick' us into a more lateral system then I'm cool with that. Cheers MC

I've been banging on about the utter brilliance of RuneQuest / Glorantha on these forums for years. I've been playing pen and paper games for almost thirty years now*, and RuneQuest was the one we played and loved the most. Then what happened? It got made into a bloody D20 game setting. Meh. Cheers MC * Yes, I feel old.

newc and Ranger, seeing as you both know 1st Ed: Would you agree that the 1st Ed. Bard (i.e. tri-classed Ftr/ Thief / Druid) was actually the first prestige class? And, furthermore, it was better implemented and you felt like you'd actually achieved something?

And lo, in the beginning there was 2nd Edition AD&D, which were the holy tablets of lore from which early cave-dwelling developers crafted CRPGs using sticks and animal hides (if there is a 1st Ed. AD&D, or even basic / expert rules CRPG out there please let me know, I failed my Lore check when I was thinking about it). Verily, it came to pass that new brethren introduced 'Kits' into AD&D. And so it was that the flock was divided. Some loved kits. Some saw them as heresy. Others saw them as an optional tweak in a game and got over it. Then the angels Greg and Ray (cue celestial music) gave unto us BG2. Which had kits. People generally liked them. They didn't require much thinking, and all the base classes sort of levelled up in the same way. Customization was down to weapon styles, equipment choices and spells. Now I think of it, games like NWN2 has less "kit collecting" appeal than BG2 for some reason, but that's not important right now. Meanwhile, in pen and paper land, the seers and sages createth 3rd Edition D&D. Base classes and almost unlimited multi-classing. Again, the flock were divided (I remember one person almost having a breakdown at the idea of a gnome paladin - it genuinely offended every sensibility about D&D they ever had). Then came prestige classes. And there was discord. Seriously, I decided to crack on with MotB, went online for some character tips and was blown away by the builds people have come up with. Hey, I admire their ingenuity but I'm just getting confused by some of the levelling requirements to squeeze and extra +1 out of some arcane attack bonus. It's all got just too darn complex. And some of the prestige classes are even crappier than some of the really desperate kits from 2E. It's the epitome of Pokemon gaming, which I'm led to believe has reached it's apogee with 4E D&D. Now, this is the ironic bit. Dragon Age is one of the most anticipated CRPGs for a few years now. And it has three base classes. OK, apparently there are 'advanced' classes, but the core of the character system is relatively few classes augmented by skills. Strangely, I find myself very atteacted to the simplicity, although I love 3E (if not prestige classes). Now, I know people will say "don't use the prestige classes" which is fair enough. It's just that I feel like I'm missing out. What do other people think. Do they like lots of fairly fixed classes with kits (2E) unlimited multi-classing with base classes (3E), lots and lots and lots of possiblities with PRCs or are they looking forward to the back-to-basics of DA? Or, like me, do you just wish that someone would make a classless fantasy CRPG with a Fallout SPECIAL type system? Discuss. Cheers MC

If we are going to have the "shattered dreams" category then, yes, NWN is right up there for me. Turgid dross. Funnily enough the other one is Pool of Radiance 2, Ruins of whatever. Not only was it in the shattered dreams category, but it sucked from a gameplay perspective too. The PC version of Squad Leader also falls squarely into this category, as did The Elder Scrolls. That NPC dialogue system still gives me nightmares.

Does it have a "Challenging Combat" fix?

It's OK. I don't play NWN2 or MoTB explicitly for the story or characters: you and me are the Ying and Yang of the customer fanbase. It's just turned out that this XP is more geared to people like me than folks like you, but I suspect that there will still be enough characterisation and story to keep you happy. I think it will be interesting to see how this IWD / exploration / trading hybrid will work, for me it more than makes up for 'memorable' NPCs. I loved BG1 NPCs. I loved JA2 NPCs. Both had very limited dialogue and sometimes less is more. Cheers MC

^ Hmmm. Was that on PC? I don't recall it being a big problem on the console version.

Yeah, that's right, blame me. It's all my fault, using my PLAY BG AGAIN! mind ray. I've got a new computer and I've yet to properly tweak my optimally modded BG2 for yet another game. And in the past 12 months some interesting mods have come out for me to try, I'll be playing a hacked dual-class Barbarian / Cleric next time round. Last run through was protagonist Ftr/Thf, Minsc, Imoen (hacked to sorcerer) and Valygar (swapped out for Sarevok in ToB). Shadowkeeper is my friend. I shamelessly add a point to emulate the BG1 tomes and give myself excellent scores. Then again, I will only take what I consider to be 'core' NPCs (maximum four character party) and play all the uber-silly tactical challenge mods (I've yet to beat improved Firkraag, for example, because I eschew lots of magic users). IWD2 also demands my attention, it's pretty underrated in my humble. Gromnir's recent musings on bad guys led me to think how interesting the baddies in IWD2 are, and the McGuyvered IE into 3E thing is good fun. Undead Targos gives a small taste of what the IE modding community could do with this little gem given time and encouragement

The most 2-player fun I had with PS1 was definitely Command & Conquer: Red Alert Other games I enjoyed... X-Com: Enemy Unknown (yes, you can get it on PS1 and it's awesome turn-based goodness) Doom / Doom 2 Hexen Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat (fantasy RTS)

Oh, this week's beer has been more Golden Glory, Greene King IPA, Stella Artois and (yes) Tuborg. It's been very hot here, so perfect beer drinking weather (although of course it dehydrates you!).

Wine contains "fining agents." These clear the wine, i.e. cause stuff to settle at the bottom of the bottle. Once upon a time animal blood was used as a fining agent, but nowadays a lot of the fining agents use animal by-products such as gelatine. Bentonite, an American innovation, is a clay-based alternative. Most wine (at least 75%) is suitable for vegetarians but a lot of it isn't for vegans. You can get vegan wine, but it's obviously tricky to source. I've never tried any, but technically there are few reasons why a vegan wine shouldn't taste OK. Beer, OTOH is simply water, hops, barley and sugar (etc). Vegans can love beer. If I couldn't eat meat then drinking lots of beer would have to suffice! Cheers MC

Don't Taks, just don't. You've started a rant. Right, remember in The Good Old Days, when you could leave your party at the dungeon entrance whilst the thief skulked around, did a recce, disarmed traps and back-stabbed a sentry here and there? Then you could move your party forward, totally safe in the knowledge that they would stay exactly where you left them? Fun, wasn't it? Not now, what with progress an' all. Neeshka could have been a really strong NPC, a level clearing death goddess with 8d6 sneak attack and excellent stealth skills. When she issues that Stand Your Ground command, what happens? Everyone follows her, eventually. My party has the discipline of a bunch of untrained conscripts. I don't know, progress, it's great ain't it?

Given the, er, [diplomacy]ease-of-use[/diplomacy] nature of NWN2, you don't really need a balanced party. Or, come to think of it, a party at all. You could probably solo the thing with a gimped Sverfneblin Bard. I will probably POWARGAEME it with four half-orc hack-meisters.

I still don't get the friendly fire issue. You use the right spell for the right situation - i.e. if you are in a tight dungeon corridor you might use buffs on your fighters, area denial spells on doorways then use finesse-based attacks like acid arrows etc. Not expect to be able to fireball everything with impunity. For me, the no friendly-fire thing turns the game into more of a Dungeon Siege type screen-saver, not a D&D game. For example, I was playing the boss-fight at the orc caves in NWN2 OC. The phone went. I thought I paused (except that that I hadn't) and answered it. I came back and of course my party had massacred everything without my intervention whatsoever. That's not a game. That's a screen-saver.

Who mocked you? I merely politely pointed out a difference. Furthermore, hardly anybody here agrees with each other. About anything. Chill out. You know you want to.

Blimey, I just got a flashback to the original trailer for Planescape: Torment, even the brooding music was similar. Even the buildings look heavily influenced by Sigil as seen in PS:T. What do PS:T afficinados think?

So, what you're really saying is that you prefer unlimited power so combat doesn't interrupt the next soppy romance / plot / cookie cutter NPC chatter cutscene? Tactics are and always have been a vital part of CRPGs. Those that avoid this rule are usually less than the sum of parts (I know this forum is stacked full of Planescape fans but PS:T is a case in point). Developers have to satisfy both camps - the gamers like you who prefer to not have to think about how they use their combat abilties and powers, and players like me who love thinking about it and find romances and similar guff secondary distractions. Good games contain enough of each to keep us all happy. Simple, logical dynamics like having to plan a bit about where you can rest and where you throw extremely lethal spells aren't "hard-core." They simply assist (a) gameplay and (b) the suspension of disbelief. Personally, I find the bizarre fact that a fireball thrown into melee only harms your enemies completely irritating. I wish it was an option you could switch on and off. Infinity Engine combat was far more satisfying in this respect. Cheers MC

But will it be real time, turn base, or pause and play? None of the above. Small cardboard counters on a hexagonally-gridded map, rolling six-sided dice. Yes, it's Squad Leader to the death, baby!

But I do.

Except that Guinness isn't beer. It's stout. It's like saying your favourite blend of tea is coffeee.

^ Above typo possibly caused by several pints of Greene King IPA.

Sand, my love, look at the sub-title. To wit, a thread "for everybody that loves beer." Now, where I come from we call that a clue. Although I'm reasonably intrigued as to the provenance of your strange banana-flaovured beer, I'm not sure that this is the thread for you

^ Indeed, a Falstaffian girth is the price we pay for our love of the hop.

Yes, I like Sierra Nevada. Whenever I've gone to the States I've really enjoyed the Microbreweries. Americans are good at making hoppy beer that tastes like ale but tastes good cold. A lot of English beer tastes better a bit warmer. I think some terminology is in order. In the UK we use the generic term beer, but what we really mean is: Lager: The cold fizzy stuff, usually from France, Belgium or Germany. Having said that, I'm currently enjoying Morretti (Italy) and Sagres (Spain). Bitter: what everybody else might call ale, darker beer that isn't necessarily served chilled. My favourite is Fuller's London Pride. Now, I'm getting into the real ale hybrid of cold summer bitters, like Golden Glory that is the best of both worlds. Lastly, Hurlshot's comment about beer complementing food is extremely well made. Can you imagine eating Indian or Thai food without beer? Or Mexican? Lots oF English food goes extremely well with beer (in fact, a lot of the stuff I cook has beer in it too). Cheers MC