TheHarlequin

> House is "shoved in your face" even before the NCR are. Who's the first person you meet outside the Doc's house? True and I partly agree with your assessment. My main retort would be victor is done fairly subtle. No missions are really given via him until you get to vegas and you don't know house controls him (in fact its implied he doesn't know whose controlling him to start). The NCR is there at Primm and most every major point along the 188 up to vegas. With many missions being handed out at all these NCR locations. When I am talking investment I mean quests/missions, perhaps not emotional investment. If you do a ton is quests for faction A the odds most players will ditch them for faction B they just uncovered if they know they can't serve both is IMO fairly low. First play though at least. > You want to talk investment, look at the fact that House is the only one who gives you a resting place that isn't a run down shack. The Lucky 88 is probably the most meaningful location in the game to players. House is also the continuation of the quest you get at the start of the game. That is a valid point. But again by this point you prob have had a dozen NCR quests at least by the time you meet house, and invested a fair amount of time in the NCR NPCs if you follow the typical path. So again where is your investment? I know my first play through I was fairly apprehensive to side with house as by then I had so much time with the NCR and spent so much doing their quests I felt it was best just to work for house until I could screw him over for the NCR. The NCR may have their own issues but at least they didn't get me shot in the head and manipulate me as house did. (That last part playing the game from a RP perspective) Perhaps that's just me.

If I said that be 5 posts claiming I am a Christan hater... LOL Glad to know you (and prob most others who bring these topics up) get a get out of jail free card.

Having to point that out really isn't good for such an argument... Also, firmly holding to ones convictions once they've been formed, isn't exactly the definition of open-mindedness.. but whatever.. He wanted to judge me out of the blue without knowing me so.. *shrugs* but generally I agree with your point. First I never said my mind couldn't be changed. I simply hold my convictions until proven to my satisfaction I should do otherwise. Isn't that what we all do? Let me put it this way. When I was a child I never had spinach that I could recall until I was 6 or 7. Saw popey on the cartoons ate it all the time thus was even biased by that thinking i'd prob like it and was open to the idea. I recall trying it for the first time and found it absolutely disgusting. Never touched it again. Years later woke up one day and decided to try it again. Loved it, change my mind and been eating it ever since. I know someone is going to take this analogy and distort it, over analyze to all hell but whatever...

I don't see how that's clear at all. A good argument can be made against Caesar, but the abundance of options to be friendly to NCR only helps Yes Man/House since they want to maintain tourism. It does not deny the other two. No you can screw over the NCR at the very end and make vegas independent or house controlled. But my point is the NCR is shoved in your face right after leaving goodsprings. and you don't get any real chance to work for CL until near endgame. You can easily bypass the BoS entirely just by happenstance. Same with the Khans. So you really only get any true investment with the NCR, mission wise, until 50% though the game. By then many folks will be so invested with them few will turn on a dime to jump ship the first play through. It simply seems really loaded in favor of you getting into bed with the NCR. With that said, I draw the conclusion the official canon is going to be the courier helping the NCR and them taking the area. I could be wrong but certainly seems thats what the devs wanted you to do by the unbalanced sway in their direction for most of the game.

Of course. So wanting a religion (any religion, once again I have been very clear my comments are not specific to just the xian church that just happens to be the topic at the moment) teach facts as not to breed ignorance is a personal fault of mine? Good to know. Second I have been exposed to many religions in my life. Was a practicing catholic for 20 yrs in fact. How you can make these assumptions about me without even knowing me, my education or background is perplexing. Certainly at the very least makes you presumptuous.. and falsely so on your assumptions. I have seen and been at many situations and clearly understand how 'religion works'. Your arrogance about knowing me is a bit annoying.. and humorous. Finally I am one of the most liberal, open minded person you will meet. I however stand by my convictions once a view has been formed. If that makes me close minded because I draw from my personal experiences, learned knowledge and I point out facts you, or others, don't want to discuss/acknowledge that's not my issue. Seems to me you simply are making excuses to slink out of the convo. I find trying having any kind of fruitful discussion with you when the topic becomes even the slight bit controversial or biased you make a excuse to get out. So be it.

>If anything it saved far more knowledge than it buried in that time. >If it wasn't for monks/priest studding/coping ancient texts literacy could well have been lost completely in Europe. I agree. But only part of the story. The other aspect is they HORDED the 'lost' knowledge. Only those in the clergy were educated with the knowledge they saved. The reason being is because a ignorant population is easier to control then by those who are well read. As they question authority much more then those uneducated. > No witch-hunts took place at the same time that Jews were expelled. That begun as part of enlightenment movement brought on with renaissance, they were also not directed by church and happened rarely in Spain. Seems you are being a bit apologetic for the church. While most of the inquisition 'trials' (for show) and 'interrogations' (torture) were handed at the local level the church certainly helped add fuel to the fire indirectly just as they do today. They printed books on how to identify witches (aka pagans, herbal healers, lore keepers, midwives, etc) and certainly didn't step in to stop it when their local clergy took part or egged it on from a far. Just like today... Oh.. we didn't tell him to go shoot up that abortion clinic. Well just because we DO teach those doctors are evil and deserve to die to don't -really- mean it.. how were we supposed to know.. etc.. They have been playing that game for ages.

Less typing, plus xian was a official abbr used by the church for over a century in the past.

I know. What's the problem? They are teaching their faith in their churches. As long as they don't invade shopping malls and scream JESUS IS REAAAAAL at the kids, again, there's no need to go overboard. Obviously this has nothing to do with what I was saying, though? This discussion is clearly (and sensibly) confined to the question of, what kind of social conventions & understanding needs to be established regarding Christmas, for the good of all. So obviously we don't want extreme Christians taking over the whole show and shoving it down your throat, etc. My point is that there's no reason to go overboard and attack the Christian 'origins' of the holiday - there's nothing really wrong with the Western world celebrating a highly secularised holiday with its own visual signifiers and conventions and rituals, most of which by now originated from a variety of sources and/or has lost much of its Christian inflection. To be honest without putting things into your mouth, I feel that your argument is currently mixing your personal disapproval of Christian beliefs/ideologies and some very general principles/beliefs with an analysis of a specific situation, and it's just muddying the waters. I don't think, say, excising Christmas of its historical connections to Christianity / Saturnalia / etc, or making Christmas wholly non-Christian, really achieves anything meaningful. Simply making the point isn't NOT taught as symbolic, it's taught as a fact. Thus the comment it is seen as symbolic is in error. However teaching clearly misinformed information is wrong IMO. So one can teach whats known to be factually incorrect as long as the 'faith' label is slapped onto it? So if the church has another council of nicea moment tomorrow and decides to start teaching as part of their faith the earth is the center of the universe again as fact you would be ok with that? I see the slippery slope something as 'innocent' as you prob see this topic as can bring. If you can preach ignorance under the faith label then where does the line get drawn? Its these kind of 'teachings' that in the end breed the extremists as they are taught misinformation and then use that information as a justification for their actions. You agree having one faith try to ram it down others throats is not good. Then where did the people on the street here in Salem, MA during Halloween season come from that were screaming on the corners there we are all going to burn in hell because we are partaking in some fun and dressing up. And that gay folks are evil and damned. And being a Pagan im apparently in league with the xian devil. And that the earth is only 6000 yrs old. They didn't just wake up that morning with all these ideas. they were taught all this by their church. So yes, teaching misinformation is VERY bad and leads to people like this. If your religion can't stand on its own 2 feet with whats know factually both with science and history then perhaps the religion isn't worth a damn IMO. That said, Perhaps I misunderstood your comments about history. If so my bad. All I am saying is good, bad or indifferent history should not be pushed aside because some folks find in inconvenient. Thats my only point. And dismissing the pagan roots of a LOT of xian beleifs and holidays is not only breeding ignorance but silly. As if it wasn't for the various pagan religions xian's would have 1/2 of what they do know for a religion. I am a man of facts and hard data which tends to go against the grain of many religions I suppose is the main issue. Finally, unlike what you and others think I don't have a issue with xians or most other religions. What I do have a issue with is when a religion teaches psedu-science and lies in the face of both its members and of known facts to fits its agenda. As all that does is breed ignorance and untruths as 'fact' and that urks me to no end. Because, as I said above all that does is create those idiots on the corner telling everyone we are going to burn in hell for this or that and shove their ignorance down our throats.

I think they never show up because they might engage in fights with any NCR they'd encounter otherwise, and wipe the NCR out (regardless of the Helios One shoehorn, the Brotherhood can't possibly lose a fight against the NCR in the actual game, save maybe several veteran rangers) which might break some quests. It still would be great to see the BoS lay some smackdown on the NCR arseclowns. But that's a valid point. Having scattered fights of NCR and BoS troops could frag up some quests or at the very least make things overly difficult in some situations. Either case still a let down he mentions sending patrols out but none are ever seen I did flip out earlier tonight when I saw what I thought was a BoS power armor set at an NCR camp (It was an NCR heavy trooper). He looked like he could go toe to toe with a BoS soldier and give the guy a good fight. Along these lines one thing that's been bugging me is that you hear all about how this faction hates that faction etc etc, but you only ever really see the one military action between the NCR and Legion. The Kahns are practically invisible, and almost everyone else is just a tiny part of the wasteland with only the NCR being the shown throughout the wastelands. Also, I wish there was more interaction with the Legion. As it is you only really interact with them negatively until you get to the strip and then you can work for them, but the way that the NCR talks, it feels like they should have an entire section of the map that is technically their territory, which shows the benefits and drawbacks to the Legions way rather than the NCR way. I checked the stats of the NCR armor it's actually inferior to the BoS power armor. Does not have the +1 str bonus and I believe has a bit less DT or such. So someone in NCR power armor with their typical standard rifle vs someone in BoS armor with the standard gauss gun, I don't think the NCR has much of a chance. I put Val in BoS armor and only the most extreme explosions (like those at nellis) or related kind of damage takes her out now. She took on 4 raiders by herself and didn't flinch. Like Val tells you the only real thing the BoS is lacking is manpower. they have a edge with training and equipment. If they could go man to man vs the NCR they clearly would win so I really sympathize with Val on that level. Also the point is made with the battle at Helios. They said the BoS held out for quite some time with 20 to 1 odds. Not many folks in the wastelands IMO could hold off against the NCR troops with those odds for any length of time. I totally agree they game is HEAVY biased towards the NCR. Clearly the cannon story of this game is going to be how the courier sided with the NCR. I'd prefer it if the official story was Vegas became independent and pushed both CL and NCR out but we'll see. Has JE or MCA stated what the cannon storyline for this game is?

LMAO!

For this game that's prob the best melee weapon in it. They are pretty deadly for melee. However I could never bring myself to melee like yourself, as with my head shots and perk that gives me bonus to VATS, their brain is exploding before they can get in melee range to me. So I do find melee kind of boring. Melee may be more damaging then guns but tell that to all the exploding heads in front of me haha. I love in when those idiot raiders with melee weapons charge me.. its like freebie XP!

I think they never show up because they might engage in fights with any NCR they'd encounter otherwise, and wipe the NCR out (regardless of the Helios One shoehorn, the Brotherhood can't possibly lose a fight against the NCR in the actual game, save maybe several veteran rangers) which might break some quests. It still would be great to see the BoS lay some smackdown on the NCR arseclowns. But that's a valid point. Having scattered fights of NCR and BoS troops could frag up some quests or at the very least make things overly difficult in some situations. Either case still a let down he mentions sending patrols out but none are ever seen

Clearly failed at history.

Thank you for this enlightening lesson in source critique. If you want to discuss this further, I will be holding a course on the subject for graduate students during the spring term. Please don't come. Wikipedia provides easy linkage to topics of common knowledge, I didn't feel like the issue warranted me into going into proper literary sources and scan/pasting stuff here... Clearly too busy trying to be insulting/sound cool (in your own head) and missed my point.. moving on.

Getting back to the BoS topics, has anyone gotten the more open minded paladin in charge and seen any BoS patrols in the wastes afterward? I am not sure if that was just talk on his part once he takes over or it does happen and I just kept missing those patrols my first play though.

No there isn't. However most xian's don't see it as symbolic they see it as factual. If you question that pop down to your local church this sunday and ask some of folks there including the priest. Last mass I attended a bit over a decade ago they still preach it as fact not symbolic. I highly doubt much has changed on that level in the short time I have been away. And there isn't anything wrong with Christmas or the Pagan holiday it's based off of Yule/Winter Solstice, as a whole either. As long as those who wish can celebrate it as they like and are not criticized for it. This is after all a secular country not a xian one. However I disagree about your history comment. NO history IMO is pointless or not worth discussing or acknowledging. We can all learn from something for every aspect of history. Certainly many of those people on pulpits could learn a thing or two from a modern secular science or history book and stop treating the bible as if it has every answer on every topic needed. In this example I am not sure how you can discuss xmas without the real roots of it. All that does IMO is breed ignorance and helps propel the fallacy xmas is based on this fictional biblical jesus character. To paraphrase a saying I am very much a believer of.. those that forget history are doomed to repeat its mistakes

LMFAO Best.. video... EVER!

I agree partly. The secular version is the whole family, love aspect. But that's a more modern view of the holiday. However for the past 1700 yrs or so its been crammed down our throat as the birth of the biblical jesus. (Which is historically incorrect and fiction as most scholars agree the historical man jesus, which the biblical jesus is based on, was born spring or early summer). And you have these 'family values' groups trying to strong arm merchants to not say 'happy holidays' but 'merry christmas' in their ads as apparently, in their little minds, people will forget about christmas (the underlying issue is they want to push christian values on everyone) if the word isn't plastered all over the stores. They even get their panties in a bunch when stores use xmas. But I digress. That said, the roots of the holiday ironically is the Celtic/European pagan winter solstice/celebration. The xians just took it over as it was easier to convert non-xians if the holidays were at the same time. So the holiday really has ZERO to do with the xian faith anyways. But they keep pushing this false history for whatever reason. I suppose my point is if the far right xians would stop trying to shove their faith in everyones faces and the opposite side of the spectrum, would stop the knee jerk reaction being overly PC and just let folks, stores, groups, etc word it the way they want then everything would go much smoother.

Exactly. Also, once again, NONE of us live in a democracy. Some form of a republic, sure. But a real democracy is just as fictional as a real communist gov't.

That's definitely one thing I could have already read from the Other Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing Definitely NOT news. On a side note, Relying on wikipedia for real info beyond the latest video game news or what the #1 hit in 1999 was is not that wise. Beyond entertainment and pop culture I find wikipeda not that accurate and falls victim to mob mentality then accuracy more times then not. My point being I wouldn't use it for real, hard info such as this topic either so no surprise others don't.

I was thinking this EXACT same thing a few days ago. I want my PC to like/join CL but unless one plays totally OOC I can't for the life of me justify how or why anyone would want too. As you said by the time you can engage anyone of note from CL your view have been shaded quite a bit. And you prob are in deep with another faction by then anyways. CL never really seemed to be given a fair shake for some reason. Happenstance or design not sure, only JE or MCA could answer that I'd guess.

This tells me 2 things; 1. You issue is MACHINE specific not game specific as if it was your laptop would be having the same issue 2. You should remove ALL mods from the box having the issue and get a base line standard to start with and see if that resolves some/all of the CTD. The more you write the more I am inclined to say this either is a box issue or corrupt install. As you stated yourself your laptop isn't having these issues.

Is it me... or does it seem the mods for NV are coming out at a much slower pace then FO3? I found a ton of cool mods for FO3 but seems many of those kind of mods still have not been made for NV. Has the FO3 mod community dissolved for the most part thus nothing grand for NV? Or am I just imagining this? LOL

You can't read can you, I really think you are dense more times then not. Once again I gave up because you rather go the personal attack route the address the points I made. That's always your MO when you don't like ones opinion or view point. You stop addressing the topic and go after the poster so why should I bother? I asked you more then once if you felt my list was unfair to correct it so we can discuss it. But being hurl you just decided to degrade into personal attacks while standing on your soapbox patting yourself on the back. Yes I can be arrogant myself, I am a Leo after all and the irony didn't except me when posting that FYI

Er, no. North Korea is 'Far Left'. China is 'Far Left.' The USSR was 'Far Left.' Please explain for those of us not gifted with your skills of political divination how these 'Far Left' entities were flag-wavers for civil liberties and free speech? I am talking about a self identified left INDIVIDUAL in the US political spectrum. Other places, and gov'ts, in the world define 'left' differently. So your talking apples to oranges. Come back to talking US politics and reply to my post in the context it clearly was meant for.