Aristes

Rest assured, as damaging as the exchange has been to my tender soul, I will only cry on the inside. Hey, at least you found my posts entertaining. I LIKE that! haha My motive, which I find silly to question in the first place, is simply to argue for things I want. What motive do you think I have? I'm trying to infiltrate the Obsidian boards in order to subvert them and arrange their overthrow to my evil mutant overlord masters? As for the rest, I refuse to be in violent agreement with you. I violently refuse. I've actually always thought that we more or less had the same views concerning this issue. We want to get away from simplistic and morally didactic CRPG storytelling. We both see the player as the best person to decide the morality of gameplay decisions. I disagree that morals are irrelevant. Morals are relevant, whether we call them morals, ethics, or simply significant decisions. I don't mind moral questions or conundrums. I mind the CRPG writer taking it upon themselves to force feed me answers to intricate and often timeless moral questions. Mostly, I disagree with the idea that the writers need to provide exponential increases in dialogue or text in order to intimate significant consequences. They will undoubtedly be forced to do so, but not in every case and not exponentially so. Just to show I'm not emotional, I decide to make myself a liar and respond. EDIT: Wombat, you simply must understand, I will not hold a grudge over these arguments. I'm serious, bro, I might sound irritated when I respond, but we're all a bunch of internet geeks. I won't hold anything against you tomorrow for even a heated exchange today.

I wonder what you have been trying to prove. I don't believe the majority expect such level of complexity... Even Jefferson was not completed. There should be some point where they can balance consistency and non-linearity. Is it impossible for Obsidian to realize FO2 level of NPC interactions? Expectations may differ among individuals but I don't think so many people expect the level of complexity presented in your example... I

I'm telling you, man, the salt levels of my blood about killed me yesterday. The sushi was good though, and made to order right in front of us. Seriously, we ordered several different types of sushi and they prepared each one as we ordered it. I feel terrible today, but I don't think it's because of the quality of the food. I just think I can't take that much salt in my diet anymore.

Approaching it from a dialogue perspective is going to create nightmares. I see it as a state perspective. If you save a village from destruction, there is no way that you will not have a reputation. The Villagers will mention it in dialogue. Great deeds will require overt changes in dialogue. Not everything the PC does will be particularly notable. Even if it is notable, some NPCs will lack interest. If we put huge deeds aside, I like to look at the PCs actions as affecting the state of his relationship with factions. Many of these states need no specific reference within dialogue. SO, you cause some strife for the Village Warlord at the behest of the Raider Warlord. Now, assuming that your actions are clandestine, only the Raider Warlord will make references to your action in dialogue. No one else need explicitly acknowledge anything. On the other hand, there will be effects outside of dialgoue. Since trade is hampered by a lack of capital or bartering goods on the Village Warlord side, the number of caravans traveling between the Village Warlord and the City/Lake areas is reduced. Since the trade between the Village and the City is stunted, the opportunities for raiding is likewise reduced. The Raider Warlord, being a clever guy, probably figured this would happen, but crushing the economy outside the City and Lake is probably part of a larger plan anyhow. He doesn't need to tell the PC all this, though. Hell, the PC doesn't even need to know that he's tanked the economy. The Raider Warlord, seeing he can't take the Village outright, has decided to see if he can foment unhappiness. He probably doesn't even tell the PC that fact. However, the Village will cease to have as many goods to barter with the PC, and the quality of those goods will go down as well. Moreover, the morale in the Village will plummet and the people will start to be unhappy. Once again, floating text over the heads of the NPCs would suffice. No big dialogue tree, just something to show the changed state. If anything comes along to exacerbate the situation, then the Village People might even revolt. After all, the only reason the Village Warlord made it into power is because he offered protection and a little prosperity. Once he compares little more favorable to anarchy, anarchy or rebellion might be what he has. Now, all these states might be made known in one way or another to the PC, but I say let the PC be by and large oblivious to the changes other than the immediate impact on gameplay. He's going, doing his own thing. He knows that he's helping the Raider Warlord. He might realize that the quality of trade now sucks because he can't buy ammunition in quanity from the Village and the types of ammunition is now limited also. Later, however, the Raider Warlord steps in and takes over the Village and now uses it as his base of operation. The PC will undoubtedly realize that this has happened as a result of his efforts on the part of the Raider Warlord, but the dialogue necessary to reflect that fact is minimal and need only come from the Raider Warlord. Unfortunately for the Raider Warlord, he now has an even higher profile. The City and the Lake increase their efforts against him, so skirmishes start to pop between the Raider Warlord and the City and Lake. In fact, the City and Lake now have a common enemy. There's a better mutal defence and they strengthen their commercial ties. The PC need not be told any of this explicitly. What he will know is that the City and Lake provide better trade. What I'm getting across is that effects within the game can help convey the story so that dialogue need not be cluttered by excess text and options. At the end of the day, it's an RPG. You will have to write dialogue to reflect PC actions. You can't get away from it. You will probably make some mistakes, and you will be pilloried for them. If you don't reflect player actions sufficiently in dialogue, you will be pilloried as well. You're don't have a choice. What I'm hoping is that there is a way to get around excessive work for your writers while still providing a meaningful story that the PC creates.

That's the funny story of the day. Haha "square thing like an identity" Oh, that's great. Of course, all parents force their views on children. That ain't just a hippy thang!

I think Purkake has it better with Sobek. I'm not all that familiar with Egyptian mythology, but the wiki article talked about him as being a sort of "fixer" god who cleans up mistakes and repairs things.

That's truly uncanny. Great quote. When I get the chance, I'll have to find my copy. It's buried in the stacks somewhere. I wish I had it now so I could quote Zosima's response to Ivan telling him he has a heart made for deep thoughts. I can't remember the exact wording now. I also think Ivan makes the best argument against religion, and faith in general, of just about any literary character. I guess I'm getting off topic, but it's great to meet a fellow Dostoyevsky fan. Now I'm absolutely determined to find my PS:T disks. It's been too long and it is, after all, my favorite.

Hey, if you're going to read something annually, the Brothers Karamazov is a good choice! I'll get this and try to dig up my old game disks.

Yeah, I think the setting and art-work combine to make Bioshock's biggest asset. The retro look really makes the game. I am hoping for more variety of monsters and less respawns. I don't even mind the clunky combat.

I completely enjoyed the season finale. one of the best episodes by far. Usually, I'm thinking I don't like getting jerked around in the mid season, but I find the season starts and finishes pretty good. I'm just glad this is the last season. Maybe we'll move toward the end of story and some of these issues will begin to resolve.

Having someone send me somewhere to do something for them is okay. Giving me the option of ignoring them is even better.

I happen to agree about the limits of the technology. I also think that Bethesda was particularly ham fisted in how they approached PC/NPC interaction. They got the feel of the wasteland right, and they got the exploration right. I'm trying to figure out how someone can step in and take what worked and craft a story that accomodates the exploration and open endedness in FO3 with something where I feel like I'm something more than a tourist. Oh, and I was testy 'cause I got a leetle too sensitive and I can be quite vindictive if I don't keep myself in check. Quite petty. At any rate, I know that my ideas surrounding the story and NPCs are demanding, but I also know that we'll get there some day. Will folks want to play it? Will I be happy with the outcome? *shrug* I just know that I want to be part of a larger world, not the center of the universe all the time.

I'd like a personal motive, but I'd also like those motives played out in an arena where I'm not the primary player. MotB almost did this. Please note, I did not offer my post as some sort of actual fiction around which to build the damned game. I offered my post as what I would like to see in terms of factions and complex interactions that did not depend entirely on what the PC choose to do. In fact, the PC might impact a number of these situations by choosing not to do anything. So, yes, a personal motive, but not necessarily even one of finding the water chip in order to save the vault or finding the GECK to save the village. How about, finding some food in order to save his ass? Meanwhile, he's in an area with honest to goodness factions and people trying to save their own asses.

I'm not talking about some sort of extreme reactivity. Did I put enough E's in there for you? The whole point about Jefferson's rep system is that it allows the computer to keep track of multiple factions and not present those values to the player. You not only don't have extreme reactivity, you sometimes have no activity at all. That is to say, you have had an influence on the world, but what that influence is and the consequence of it is not readily understood and, depending on your actions, you might never know or understand it. For example, you save the town. Great, you saved the town. I didn't say you save the town and every day is now town saving day for the inhabitants. On the other hand, if you do something so absolutely remarkable as saving the town, a lot of folks might be happy to build you a monument. In fact, the "it's all in your head" arrangement (see, we can both be ridiculously simplistic in assessing each others points) fails when the PC does something truly outstanding. However, what if the PC does something truly outstanding and there's no one there to witness it? That's still part of the "different experience" that I cited. Notice, nowhere in my original post did I say, the townfolks should dance around you, offering their naken and nubile daughters for your pleasure. So, somewhere, sometime, there must be a response to what the player does and that response will clearly be expressed at least partly in dialogue. This was my point in my post about story. It wasn't really to create the backstory the game, which I would rather not know before I play it. It was to express the sort of complex relationships between people. That response will often be nuanced. Some of the factions will be overt, either in acceptance or not. Some of the factions might have heard of my exploits, but refrain from letting me know. The factions should all have a relationship with one another and I will have some part to play in the events surrounding those relationships. By playing my part, I'm also forming relationships as well. Finally, don't boil my arguments down to something ridiculously simplistic only to offer what is certainly no less simplistic on your own part.

Well what is there to say about the story besides posting our own awful fanfic-type ideas Ouch! Aw well, I like to exchange awful fanfic-type ideas with other folks.

A friend of mine took me out to all you can eat Sushi. What's funny is that the place touted genuine Japanese Sushi, but the people all spoke Korean to each other. No biggie, that was some of the best mixed Japanese seafood I've had in a long LONG time. God, I'm going to start going there regularly, even if it is 25 minutes away in a fairly run down part of Riverside. Meanwhile, he's mentioned that he feels bad because he's somewhat relieved that his wife is gone. She had terminal cancer for years and they went through a soul draining ordeal trying to find new treatments that might help. The treatements she took, in combination with the cancer, compromised her immune system. After years of fighting cancer, she died of an infection. Sucks, huh? The upshot, he wouldn't be human if he didn't feel some burden lifted off of his shoulders. He didn't wish for her to die and he'd give anything to have her back, but she'd dead. Mourne the good stuff, but let yourself feel a little relief that it's over. Not only that, he had a heart attack himself less than a year ago. He's a big, healthy guy. The mild cardiac event was brought on by stress. Anyhow, he says to me that he sometimes talks to his wife. You have to understand, before you think I'm a complete **** for this exchange, that we're guys. I've brought up Nancy from time to time, but I mostly let him tell me what he wants when he wants. Being guys in our 40s, that means not a lot. So he suddenly says when I'm getting ready to leave that he talks to his wife sometimes when he's alone in the house and asks me if that makes him crazy. I shrugged and told him it depended on what she said back. Made us both laugh, so it must not have been too bad.

What did you think? I bought the game based on the advice you and Gorth gave me. I'm still in Chapter 3, but I've been enjoying it a lot. I'm quite glad I made the purchase. I think the sex mini-game is weird, but kind of funny and entertaining and I rely on poker dice for my spending sprees.

I can buy into the idea that New Vegas should not be linear. However, I would still hope that our actions have some sort of impact. If I nuke a town and murder everyone in the Republic of Dave and kick every stray dog I see, I should have a different experience than if I neutralize the bomb in Megaton, set up multiple trade routes, and feed every stray cat that crosses my path. I prefer more impact on the world, but I'll settle for some reasonable feedback. We talk about Jefferson and I think it's easy for folks to talk about 'what might have been' because it's 'not what is.' However, the reputation and faction system as I've heard that Sawyer described it back in the day sounds like a reasonable way to go more towards those meaningful choices and consequences. The only real problem is doing it without completely screwing up the dialogue trees for everything that follows in the game. That's the only real problem, but it's one big assed problem.

No matter what Sawyer said regarding VATS before, it's clear that he's put a lot of thought into how it could be improved. What I've gotten from him so far sounds like a reasonable path for New Vegas, although I've not gotten much yet. Still, there's certainly enough to discuss. I can see from where Gromnir is coming, but I don't think holding Sawyer's feet to the fire on an issue that came up so long ago serve any particular purpose assuming that his current posts clarify a position from which it is clear that VATS will remain a part of the game but that some effort will go into improving the VATS experience. Those are the salient points as far as I can tell. I don't mind the engine in and of itself. Like many folks, I would like to see a dramatic decrease in weapon and armor deterioration. Moreover, like many folks, I'd like to see more options for crafting, including tampering with existing devices as well as creating new devices. If this game had a longer cycle, I might even look for crafting experimentation along the lines of spell, item, and potion creation in Morrowind and Oblivion. I've jumped on board with the 'non-linear' crowd. At least, it seems to make sense, assuming that the writing in terms of dialogue, flavor text, and descriptions is well done. I think bickering and Beth hating has actually improved by splitting the topics, and this is true even though hardly anyone either reads or posts in the story topic, which is sad. I'm afraid that they'll close it, but I guess it won't matter if no one contributes to it anyhow. *shrug*

I remember the conversation. What I'm getting from the current discussion is that VATS is clearly still in the mix for the game unless Sawyer is doing a head fake. If VATS is in the game, then it pretty much confirms the FO3 engine. I'm down with that... or up with that... or whatever is 'cool' these days.

Yeah, steady improvement is good and often makes the experience worth it. I laughed out loud at the "professional tournaments ot the Koreans line."

Personally, I'd prefer it if NV had no companions. ditto

Thanks, entrerix, I'll take that as a compliment and repost. Be warned, people, lest all this text make your eyes bleed. I'd like minimal Super Mutant and Enclave presence, perhaps no more than rumors and hearsay. I'd prefer no nemesis at all. Instead, the PC interacts with various factions to create his own story. To create a story with no single plotline and a lot of freedom, we should have at least five factions. Each faction can have it's own internal quest-lines and more complex quest lines relating to other factions. There's a lot of opportunity for the PC to decide which faction, if any, he wants to support and what methods he chooses to use. 1. Village Warlord. He's managed to claw out a stretch of crop land with just enough water to grow food and sustain the population. He doesn't really care about gaining more power, but he's willing to take what's easy. He's just not willing to risk what he already has in order to fight for more. Life is good for him personally and the people are generally within acceptable levels of discontent. Some of them chafe under his rule, but most remember days of anarchy, killing, and hunger. For now, the warlord is the better option. Sure, he takes too much and drafts even very young men into his army when his lands are threatened, but the community is slowly growing and even prospering. 2. Raider Warlord. The only thing that separates the Raider Warlord from the other bands of raiders that populate the wastes is that he demands and receives more discipline from his fighters. As a result, his raiders range far and wide with more success than the others. In fact, his band has become swollen from the ranks of the defeated. More than just a petty raider, the Raider Warlord seeks to establish a permanent base of operation, but the larger settlements have sufficient power to keep him on the run. Even worse than outside turmoil is internal security. His success has transformed his small, well trained band of raiders into a large, sloppy mob. The core of his band is still extremely loyal, and the Raider Warlord is crafty. He despises weakness, but he respects strength and intelligence. He will accept new members into his band and is particularly keen on finding an anonymous outsider who will be able to infiltrate any groups formed within the newer members of his army. If that outsider can be trusted to carry out clandestine missions in enemy territory, so much the better. 3. The City. The City is the place with all of the muscle. The leaders, a small group of 'council members' who represent various parts of the City, come to power in a variety of ways. Two areas have free elections, one has more or less universal sufferage while the other only gives a vote to citizens based on a certain amount of property. One is represented by the remnants of the brotherhood of steel in the City. One is more or less 'tribal,' although it is comprised of more than one actual family. The final voting area is represented by a local warlord and his lieutenants. The City has a lot of internal strife, but it has always managed to pull together to face common enemies. Currently, the Raider Warlord is their biggest concern and they've gone to great lengths to put spies in his organization. The Village Warlord is too remote and powerless to be much of a concern, but some elements within the City don't trust him and wish to see his outfit infiltrated at the very least and neutralized in way possible as the best course. The City is primarily interested in the Lake, but doesn't have the power to take it outright and has vested commercial activities that would suffer greatly if it tried. 4. The Lake. Lake mead has created a large community. Not quite the size of the City, it still boasts a variety of commercial endeavors, from farming to manufacture. The Lake is more or less a monarchy in which the nobles share power. The people have limited say in the form of large meetings that convene biannually. These meetings, Public Affairs, negotiate taxes as well as military and civil service. There has been some strife between the three branches of power, but things have gone relatively smoothly until recently. The current Queen took has shrewdly and stealthily started to reassert the monarchial dominance of political power. Nevertheless, she is still faced with a strong nobility that has lately managed to convince the general populace to side against her on many issues. There is a Public Affair scheduled this year. 5. The Swarm. Yes. It's finally happened. The Rad-Scorpion Swarm, descendants of the legendary rad scorpion King, has achieved a level of intelligence that allows it to transcend its insectoid origins. Now the Swarm plots and contemplates how it will approach humanity. In peace? ...Or in war? Right now, it bides its time. Waiting. Considering, like the King of old, its moves like pieces on a chess board. There is a more or less natural antagonist in the Raider Warlord. There is a more or less sympathetic group in the City, although many folks will side with the Lake. Each faction has enough internal turmoil to support quests within its domain. The strongest internally is the Village Warlord while the weakest internally is the Lake. However, from an external view, the City and Lake are the most powerful adversaries. There isn't any one specific bad guy and there is plenty of opportunity for the player to choose sides and impact the world. No didactic overtones. There is a case to be made for every side. Certainly, the hardest to defend is probably the Raider Warlord, but I can make several cases for him now and that doesn't even take into account his characterization, which I still haven't considered. This is not so much a specific suggestion as a template of the sort of arrangement I'd like to see. Frankly, I don't want the Swarm, but it's just one idea for a non- human, super mutant, or enclave adversay/ally for the PC.

Is it possible to speed it a bit? I mean, not real time, but something a little less dramatic than the painful slo mo we have now?

Or give you information later that you could not have known then or information you could have known but didn't find out. Oops. Made a mistake. That's how life is. I mean, Witcher has its own problems in the story department. On the other hand, I've been enjoying it. Sure, Still, great game with some good ideas.