Aristes

haha I'll second that!

I second.

Why? Folks speculate on story and plot without hard facts all the time. It's no different than tons of threads as regards other games before they hit the shelves. If anything, putting forth ideas now is the best way to have any input. I doubt it will really make a difference. Of course, I doubt that our input will make much difference later either. As I understand it, Obsidian does a lot of brainstorming at all levels, so if anyone at the dev team looks at any of this and it makes an impression, you might actually make some difference.

I want to be able to hide cards up the sleeves of my power armor.

Being in a clan is a great way to get better at the game, for one thing. You will undoubtedly need some sort of voice communication software like Teamspeak of Ventrilo. If you join a clan, as opposed to creating one, you won't need to host a server or anything, so it won't be any big deal on your end. However, once you join a guild, you will have to practice. This isn't like WoW or CoH. Once you're in an FPS guild, you have to play. A lot. I mean, yeah, you have to practice at any game, but fps clan play is all about PvP. Depending on the game, you might have to study your teams best strats and then figure out which task you'll do, such as engineer, soldier, Lt., etc. Most guilds fail because of petty in-fighting between the members, particularly based on player skill, perceived pecking order, and play-time. You'll also end up with scheduled practice times, probably on a guild server, and you'll also have competition dates if you're in a ranked guild, which is like a black hole for time. All in all, it's not bad, but it's a hell of a lot of time for just playing a game. ...And it's not like posting on this message board, which you can do wherever you go and no matter what you're doing, five minutes here and there. It's like great gaping chunks of time and folks will lay all sorts of guilt trips and crap on you for leaving when you finally return to your life. Not saying don't do it, just saying it's like joining the mafia. Heaven help you if you give anyone your home phone number because they'll call you to try to keep you in the guild. Hell, join WoW and create a family guild. At least they already have your number and they're probably going to call and bitch at you for something or another anyway. Not that I know any of this from experience, bro.

Oh, I'm not bashing you. I think there are a variety of ways to approach it. The dam breaks up and the water is lost. The dam is intact and there are two water sources. The dam is intact and the oasis water is unusable. Etc. Really, I think the design team should have some license. Mostly, I was just saying it's feasible for a city faction, you know? The aquifer is waaaay low. I mean, we've been raiding that water source for a long time. I don't know how much good even a couple hundred years would do, but it's an option at least.

I present it as more of a template than as the actual arrangement. However, there is a natural aquifer in Las Vegas. Furthermore, with the population drastically reduced, the aquifer might grow and even flow over ground once more. These events are well after the nuclear war, so who knows what might have happened. If anything, it's more likely Lake Mead, as a man made lake, would have dried up. I'm Las Vegas born and raised, so I'm quite familiar with the desert. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas_Springs

Ha. I barely passed high school. The yutz that I am. Still, I like to read, which helps.

I'm fine having a super mutant presence, but not a major one, in the game. The enclave I hope will only be something known by reputation. However, since we had Enclave in Fallout 2 and 3, I think we're going to see them in some form or another in Fallout: New Vegas. Nevertheless, like super mutants, I hope they can be kept largely in the wings, assuming they get any stage time at all. What I'd really prefer is that there is no nemesis at all. Instead, have various factions with whom the PC interacts to create the story. You've said we don't want a super tight story. Okay, you've convinced me. Rather than a super tight story, then, have bunch of interwoven stories surrounding different factions. Say, maybe five big factions or so. Maybe more. 1. Village Warlord. He's managed to claw out a stretch of crop land with just enough water to grow food and sustain the population. He doesn't really care about gaining more power, but he's willing to take what's easy. He's just not willing to risk what he already has in order to fight for more. Life is pretty good and the people are generally within acceptable levels of discontent. Some of them chafe under his rule, but most of them remember days of anarchy and killing and, right now, the warlord is better. Sure, he takes too much and drafts even very young men into his army when things are tough, but the community is slowly growing and even prospering. 2. Raider Warlord. The only thing that separates this guy's outfit from other raiders is that he demands and receives more discipline from his fighters. As a result, his raiders range far and wide with more success than the other raiders. In fact, his band has become swollen from the ranks of the defeated. More than just a petty raider, the Raider Warlord seeks to establish a permanent base of operation, but the larger settlements have sufficient power to keep him on the run. Even worse, his success has meant that his small, well trained band of raiders has become a large, sloppy mob. The core of his band is still extremely loyal, and the Raider Warlord is crafty. He despises weakness, but he respects strength and intelligence. He will accept new members into his band and is particularly keen on finding an outsider to help provide internal intelligence on the newer members of his army. If that outsider can be trusted to carry out clandestine missions in enemy territory, so much the better. 3. The City. The City is the place with all of the muscle. The leaders, a small group of 'council members' who represent various parts of the City, come to power in a variety of ways. Two areas have free elections, one has more or less universal franchise while the other only gives a vote to citizens with a certain amount of property. One is represented by the remnants of the brotherhood of steel in the City. One is more or less 'tribal,' although it is comprised of more than one actual family. The final one is represented by a local warlord. The City has a lot of internal strife, but it has always managed to pull together to face common enemies. Currently, the Raider Warlord is their biggest concern and they've gone to great lengths to infiltrate his organization. The Village Warlord is too remote and powerless to be much of a concern, but many elements in the City don't trust him in their neighborhood and wish to see his outfit infiltrated at the very least and neutralized in way possible as the best course. The City is keenly interested in the Lake, but doesn't have the power to take it outright and has vested commercial activities that would suffer greatly if it tried. 4. The Lake. Lake mead has created a large community. Not quite the size of the City, it still boasts a variety of commercial endeavors, from farming to manufacture. The Lake is more or less a monarchy in which the nobles share power. The people have limited say in the form of large meetings that convene biannually. These meetings, Public Affairs, negotiate taxes as well as military and civil service. There has been some strife between any of the branches of power, but things have gone relatively smoothly until the current Queen took power. She has craftily started to reassert her dominance of political power. Nevertheless, she is still faced with a strong nobility that has lately managed to convince the general populace to side against her. There is a Public Affair scheduled this year. 5. The Swarm. Yes. It's finally happened. The Rad-Scorpions, descendants of the legendary King rad scorpion, have achieved a level of intelligence that allows them to transcend their insectoid origins. Now they plot and contemplate how to approach humanity. In peace? ...Or in war? Right now, it bides its time. Waiting. Considering its moves like pieces on a chess board. Of course, none of these suggestions are really serious. No doubt suggesting them in this thread would make them unusable anyhow. As a general template, I think it does what I want, though. There is a more or less natural antagonist in the Raider Warlord. There is a more or less sympathetic group in the City, although many folks will side with the Lake. Each faction has enough internal turmoil to support quests within its domain. The strongest internally is the Village Warlord while the weakest internally is the Lake. However, from an outside view, the City and Lake are the most difficult adversaries. Once again, my point isn't that this is a great idea for New Vegas. However, I like these ideas as the sort of game I want to see. There isn't any one bad guy and there is plenty of opportunity for the player to choose sides and impact the world. No didactic overtones. There is a case to be made for every side. Certainly, the hardest is probably the Raider Warlord, but I can make several cases for him now and that doesn't even take into account his characterization, which I haven't even tried to figure out at this point. Finally, THIS is why we need more threads. I finally finish writing up this idea and I have to follow one of Gizmo's erudite posts on a different topic entirely. Damn you all!

Some good ol' warlordism. I agree. And remember that warlords often step into power because anarchy sucks, so keep that in mind while you create the warlord characters.

Not really. I know that we're playing the big daddy and I was saying that it might be interesting playing a big sister. ...But that's because the big daddies always seem like lumbering galoots. I'm undoubtedly going to buy the game and I look forward to enjoying it.

At least the big sister looks a lot more interesting than the big daddies. Hell, I wish I could play one of them. haha A lot more opponents and an escort to boot? Ugh. I like some of what I see, but I don't want escort quests. We'll see, though.

Hey, I've not been fighting with anyone. Hell, I might poke fun at my gorilla friend, but I'm not trying to get him booted. I pretty much read this thread and I'm hoping for a split too. I think talking about New Vegas is perfectly legit. There's more than enough room to discuss the topic. For one thing, while we don't know the specific direction the design team is headed, we do know the setting and surrounding area. We know the basic mechanics of the engine. We know, within a few parameters, the level of technology and time frame. We know the state of the wasteland in California and DC withing a few decades of each other. Once again, I had suggested three topics, but I'd be happy with any split. Fallout: New Veagas -- general area and wasteland. Fallout: New Vegas -- The city. Fallout: New Vegas -- combat. Fallout: New Vegas -- SPECIAL. I see a lot of new topics from which to choose. We probably won't get five topics, but three or so wouldn't hurt. I think some of you are a bit over the top on baiting Bethesda, but a lot of us can spread the manure on Troika. If there is some sort of general word on how far we can go with regard to poking fun at Bethie and St. Timmy, I'm happy to abide. However, Matthew has given us incentive to post. That way we can fill up this thread and get our specific topics for discussion sooner!

Hell, I might buy World of Goo now. Geez.

I would be pretty stoked if Fallout 3 managed to create renewed interest in the originals.

Hey, for some guys it's tough to fight women. It's the whole chivalry thing. Me, I'd just run. Of course, I'd probably run if it were a guy also. ...Or a stray cat. Whatever. I'm a born again Krishtun. We're all wimps.

I'd actually like to see turn based combat. I prefer it in RPGs. I don't think there's a chance in hell, but you never know. I agree completely that RPG writing has not improved and maybe even gone into a downward trend. However, it's like politics. Just because your guy is down and out one year doesn't mean he can't come back. What I'm not going to do is fret over it. All those years, folks were railing for better writing and deeper stories and where has it gone? I'm like Sand. I'm going to argue for specifics within a game, but I'm not going to throw in everything but the kitchen sink. I'm going to pick my battles and argue for things that I really want or that might start out on the road to what I want. The influence we have, if we even have influence in the first place, is only as strong as our arguments. I'm simply not going to squander my influence by repeating failing arguments. That's why I put emphasis on arguing that money can be made doing things I suggest. No matter that song writers can say "screw you" to the record labels, game developers need to find publishers who will buy into their peculiar brand of storytelling. ...And that assumes that games can be the equivalent of movies or books in terms of story-telling. It's odd, but I've always just kind of thought of Aram as some gun nut who only cared about ballistics, but lately his ideas regarding different types of media and storytelling seem spot on to me.

If push comes to shove, I'd be happy with tighter individual stories spread out over the playing field. Yeah, I might want PST in a sandbox for Fallout, but I'd settle for multitudes of quests being better in general and the dialogue being good. I think Obsidian can pull that off.

Yeah, I agree as to the action movie thing, which is kind of how I view games these days. Which saves me from getting pissed off all the time about games falling short of my expectations. I'm serious, the best way thing you can do to enjoy a game is to temper your enthusiasm before hand. haha

...And the mystery of your lifetime ban at Bethesda deepens. EDIT: Ah hell, missed it by THAT much. Anyhow, I agree with Promethean. Bloodlines is a lot of fun. I can't find my game disks, otherwise, I might play it again.

Does anyone even talk about New Vegas in this thread?

I've virtually never been angry enough to put someone on ignore. I mean, sometimes I get irritated and whatnot, but I try not to have personal animosity over things. ...And hell, that's in the WoT board where folks have some crazy and destructive ideas. On the gaming side? Hell, we're all gamer geeks. How terrible can our posts be?

i've actually argued many times that videogames cannot truly be art because their primary goal is capital gain. art, in it's pure form...exists because the artist has something inside which needs to be purged. selling your art should be an afterthought meant to expose yourself to the greatest audience possible. but creating art with the intention to constantly compromise in order to make money immediately changes it from art to commodity. though i WILL argue to the death that some games are, to use a turn of phrase, more of a "work of art" than others. some games held onto their integrity and sunk their artistic principles so deep into them that they said "i hope people want a game like this. here goes nothin'" and you know what? that's why we have games like Grim Fandango, Fallout and Planescape. so anyway, the heck's yr point? that we're demanding Fallout be "art"? no. look, writing decent to average dialogue isn't that tough. the amount of head-slaps or eyes rolled while reading FO3's dialogue is heretofore unsurpassed by any game, ever. glad you brought that up as i was just about to. nothing felt natural and the choices seemed either completely obvious or empty and arbitrary. i got so sick of the embarrassing dialogue of FO3 that i just started clicking through it all so i could get on with the game (not to mention the half-assed voice acting got old real quick). My earier post, which I edited, was actually an appeal that games move more towards art. However, I just figured to hell with it. Unlike Aram, I don't think that Fallout 3's writing is terrible. I don't think it's stellar and it's certainly a step down from some of the better games I've played. ...But horrible? *shrug* Depends on how much we want to make of writing in games in general. For my part, I don't think game writing has risen or fallen over the years. Sure, there are gems in the mix. Yeah, someone gets the setting well, or nails the dialogue, or even gets good voice actors, but at the end of the day, it's just a computer game. No, that's not some flip line I'm throwing out without any thought. At the end of the day, the state of publishing, combined with the nature of the consumer, and added to the developer, stops games well short of being art. Developers create games with shallow themes. Game writers are childishly simplistic, didactic, and morally intrusive. Consumers buy their games. Yes, there are movies that do things worse than games. Is the point, Aram, that games are the equal of movies because some movies suck even worse than some games? Don't make me laugh. I want a game that challenges me, and I don't mean with super uber combat. I want a game that forces me to challenge myself. Maybe forces me to reconsider my preconceived notions of the universe and my place in it. However, we're not getting that and maybe we never will. As a side note, Gromnir's point about art is that much of it was commissioned throughout history. It has, by and large, been a commercial endeavor. It has not always, but art has invariably been intertwined with commercial endeavors. To say that it is largely for it's own sake is simply wrongminded, whether we're talking about Dostoyevsky or Rembrandt. On the flip side, there are games that folks have created as a labor of love without seeking payment. Not so much today, but I played a lot of freeware/shareware when I was younger. Added to that is the fact that the biggest exception to art in which payment was exchanged for the piece is art that was inspired by religious fervor. Some of the most beautiful pieces of art have been inspired by world religions, from Christianity/Islam/Judaism to Buddhism. I'm sure that a game as inspired by a world religion would be better?

Oh forget it. Why should games be art? Why not just be games? *shrug* It's probably pointless. Let's just say that the dialogue in Fallout 1/2 is not exactly Pulitzer prizewinning material either. Maybe games will be art someday, but in the meantime I want games to be fun. Of course, I have the sudden desire to install American McGee's Alice and play it again.

yeah, I'd just stick with, "kid" or "hey you!" I remember one 13 year old said, "I'm not a kid anymore! I'm a teen!" hahaha I remember one student came up to me to ask if I would buy one of her cookie dough containers for a school fundraiser. I held up my hand and said, "wait!" She looked at me. I said, "are you talking about the dough from the fund raiser?" She smiled and said yes. "Do you have the large size?" She nodded. "Do you have it in peanut butter?" She got excited and assured me she did. "Sorry, I'm not interested." Oh, was she soooo mad at me. I don't know that I've ever had a student look at me with so much rage before or since. Of course, I did end up buying the cookie dough from her, so it was okay in the end, but I honestly think she was planning something dire until I laughed and said that I'd order some from her. Her name was Caitlin Kunz. She was not unpopular, so folks didn't kid her about her name, but one time someone called her Caitlin ****.