RangerSG

I'll add "The Subtlety of Thay" to this list. A very interesting story with lots of room for different PC personalities. The tendancy towards "neutral" align shifts was the only whacky thing in the game design. But very clean, and a very good story. I've made my Dark Waters rant, I won't repeat it. The Conan mod is actually an NWN1 remake. JohnMCA was one of the more underrated NWN1 modders.

"Once in a while." Try 'right off the bat.' You spend more time "role playing" characters that are NOT your PC in the beginning than you do your PC. Then the gimmicks start, and the 'plot,' such as it was, was an excuse to see how many could be shoved into 10hrs of gameplay. And whatever identity you had for your PC was ramrodded out of existence by the gimmicks. There was the potential for an interesting story there. But it was buried. I rated it a 4, and I think I was extremely generous. His work lost all semblance of RPing with Demon. Even the reviews of his work from his fans support it more for what he does in the toolset than any semblance of story. If you like Myst, I suppose you'd like it. If you're looking for Roleplaying, don't look at that. I'd find it a whole lot less disingenuous if he'd just drop the pretense of being a RP mod builder and enclose a mandatory PC to start the game with.

I have to agree. Adam Miller is...meh. A mediocre storyteller at best. He's great with visuals and tricks. But playing one of his mods is like watching "The Phantom Menace." You know it's not going to make a whole lot of sense and have plot holes you can drive a truck through. That's aside from the fact in both Demon and Dark Water he basically ripped your character out of your hands and rammed it into the prefabbed mold he had for it. Was he incredibly important to the mod community? Sure. Do I even 'want' to play anything he does anymore. Absolutely not. I called Demon the most overrated mod on the Vault, I stand by that. I gave Dark Water 1 a 4...and I think I was generous to give it that high a score. Neither had any fun factor for me at all. Neither deserves to be called an RPG. Hire him? I guess, just don't let him do anything but technical developments, because anything he writes will be carp.

NX2 (DR 1374) takes place BEFORE the Spellplague (DR 1385). They won't be touching that event. (Though, they could do some foreshadowing of it...). So far the only 4ED they are touching on is the rise (I assume) of Zehir. I'm aware that it takes place before that. I just wish they could've ignored that the monstrosity that is 4e existed at all. Anyway, as I said, This is my final WotSC-related purchase. Hopefully Obsidian will make me remember the chapter in my life that was D&D fondly, one that goes back over 2 decades.

This is interesting. I like the blended party idea. I wouldn't want a full IWD-style party, as I missed the personality of BG NPCs. But being able to choose your own PCs to form the bedrock of a unit sounds nice. I'd like to see Mystic Theurge implemented. It's the one class in both NWNs that I've regretted not seeing. And since the 4e carp means it will never 'be' seen there, now would be a good time. Swashbuckler would be a good fit. Overland maps beg for horses, though large NWN2 area maps get laggy fast, so it may not be plausible. From a gameplay standpoint, I'd like to see ridable horses and ride skills implemented along with paladin/blackguard mounts. The FR isn't my favorite campaign setting anyway, but the debacle in storywriting that was done to set up 4e is proof that WotSC doesn't have 3 firing grey cells between the lot of them. And that's aside from the D&D as a card game rules. I'll be buying this, and it will probably be my final D&D related purchase. That's courtesy of the imbeciles at WotSC. Please make it a grand send-off, Obsidian. Then go get the rights to the Pathfinder rule set and stay away from anything 4e related...please.

Well that was broken by Tribunal, not vanilla Morrowind. And I think someone forgot to playtest what would happen if you used that armor before you were where they expected you to be. That plus the fact people called you the Nereverine in Mournhold even if you hadn't gotten that far in the real game. Must have been prophets everywhere in that city. Best way to handle that was to disable the Tribunal dss until you'd reached the appropriate stage of the plot.

I have to agree on this one. Oblivion's performance was better on my PC than NWN2's, despite Oblivion being far more intensive.

The physics engine and lighting were very impressive. No two ways about it. The game 'looks' amazing...other than NPCs, who uniformly are hideous.

Actually, you're talking about an implementation there as well. I think it 'could' have worked well, if it was a skill based system like in Morrowind. And not a "trick the NPC" system where you 'had' to use all the options in just the right order. That was silly. I don't tease, flatter, and intimidate someone all in the same discussion 'every' time we chat IRL, why do I have to in the game. Now using your skill to get the best idea of how to approach a person, and then attempt it? That could've worked.

To be fair regarding Elder Scrolls and the jack-of-all-trades PC, this is part and parcel in large part of the 'open-ended' RPG in general. The best way to approach it is a well-rounded PC to get the most out of your experience. The same thing was true in Fallout 2. You were best served being a team-player female sniper, as that gave you maximum quests and maximum experience in gameplay. In Oblivion you're best off with a well-rounded PC to get into the most factions and maximize your experience as well. You can choose to do less in any open-ended RPG, but it's never going to be the 'best' way to progress. I don't know that it's necessarily bad that a jack-of-all-trades works best then. I think the lockpicking mini-game and speechcraft mini-games were both interesting ideas that fell flat in execution. But the landscape rendering and exploration aspects of the game (and the DB quest) keep me from disliking the game by any stretch.

I absolutely have to have the mods that remove the auto-leveling NPC silliness from Oblivion. The idea of simple farmers and bandits having gear I gutted myself more drives me bonkers too. I also have to have the haks to improve PC appearance, because otherwise I have to fiddle for an hour to come up with a PC that isn't revolting to look at. I love the exploration. And the Dark Brotherhood plot is 'almost' worth the price of the game in itself. It really is, to me, an exceptional storyline. And Lucian Lachance is easily the best voiced NPC in the game. That all serves to throw into stark relief how mediocre the rest of it is (other than Sean Bean's contribution). The problem is that the new combat system is frustrating because one trip through any lair and even the heaviest armor is rendered as useful as a robe. I would like an armor degradation system that actually made sense. Elder Scroll's never did, and the Oblivion system just sheds more light on how screwy it is.

I think it's safe to say that WotSC has finally managed to destroy anything that was left of D&D. It took them a long time to manage the feat. But epic stupidity will always win out in the end. 4e=utter disgrace.

"Finishing" Elder Scrolls games is a mythical statement anyway, to be fair. The Main quest is such a small part of the overall story. And in Oblivion, the best content was in the Dark Brotherhood (Lucien Lachance subplot), which was quite good, IMHO. To me, Oblivion is almost impossible to enjoy without using a host of mods to improve visuals and break the gameplay out of the "everyone levels exactly with you" nonsense. Nothing is more immersion breaking than the Daedra Armor wearing bandit accosting you for 100gp.

Try and refrain from replying to this with some snappy comment - since you make a distinction between "art" and "mere entertainment", what criterions must be met for something to be in one field and not the other? Just wondering, since I would not have it easy categorising creative works like that. It's probably an classification of ease, with average, common games as entertainment and the more highly appreciated/innovative games (e.g. those with cult following) as art. A fairly decent distinction for utility purposes, but probably inaccurate when it comes to deciding whether or not a game is art. I'm guessing that's what he means too. But to punish a game strictly for it's popularity in terms of "art" makes for a false dichotomy. The Godfather was a hit movie, and yet it's considered one of the greatest "art" movies of all time. The dichotomy is not hard and fast in movies, it can't be proven hard and fast in games. Which is why I then turned to the technical aspect; a grounds by which it's unavoidable to determine that Bioware has been innovative. Put it another way, Star Wars is lampooned for much of it's story and writing (rightly), but it did advance the technical aspect of visual storytelling (especially in the original incarnation). Same with Peter Jackson and LotR, whatever you think of it as an adaptation of the books. Technical advancement of the medium is innovation. Fallout 1&2 were two of the most innovative and enjoyable games on every level I ever played. I don't share (though I understand) the fascination with PS:T, myself. It's pacing is, turgid. Especially with the fact there's no real threat for most of the game. It's a great game idea, but a bit muddled in implementation. From there, we basically get into games that have used Bioware engines. And those I do not find innovative at all, though they may be entertaining.

Kivan and Viconia would too if you had them both in party long enough.

Actually, you can lose enough influence with people while LS to still get their info, with the exception of Kreia, but even then you can get full influence with her if you know what you're doing. True, you can do it that way. But losing influence to get the dialogs is trickier, and probably won't be done by a player either of the first two times through, since you're going to be focusing on the players you can easily extract info and influence from those times. So maximizing the influence loss is something you're 'still' likely to not do until your third time through. And going DS is a better way, IMHO. If just for the added benefit of seeing the DS Kreia lines. And it doesn't hurt that you can be something other than a simple thug in K2 and be DS.

And I liked Telos but not Citadel Station. The mindless errand running in Citadel made me sick. The nice thing about Peragus is you didn't start with a bunch of fetch and carry quests...unfortunately, that was destroyed in Citadel Station which barraged the player with mindless fetch and carry quests. I liked Onderron and Dxun, maybe because I didn't have a point of reference for them elsewhere as some did. Dantooine I liked better the first time. Sorry, why did we have to see the wreckage of a world that was only interesting the first time for what was not there now? I did like Nar Shaddaa, save the bugs, and the lengthy 'capture.' Hint for future reference; I don't buy RPGs to role play NPCs. RPing them does not aid immersion...just the opposite. Taking a NPC over for a "short" time as part of a battle is tolerable. RPing someone other than my PC is not. I am not Mira, a droid, Atton, Visas, etc. ad nauseum. I'm the Exile, and I should INFLUENCE those characters...not BE those characters. The repeated PoV switching in N.S. was overkill. The Dxun/Onderon sequence didn't hurt 'as' much to me. But the N.S. mess, bleck. As for Malachor, can't grade it because of all the cut content. It didn't have the climactic feel the Star Forge had to me. But the lead up was better than the silliness on Rakata.

I would say you're almost required to play it 'three' times. Once with Handmaiden for the Atris info, once with Mikal to see what the Sith agenda is, and a third time Dark Side so you can fill in the pieces with any influence dialogs that are difficult to trigger from the light side.

Regarding KotOR and KotOR2...intially the first was very good to me. Though there were some cumbersome issues (like weapon switching) in the first one, I thought for the most part it was enjoyable. I also don't get the BG2 comparison, because the main story has nothing in common to BG2 (though it does have the Bastila/Aribeth element, that is hardly the whole story). And the twist was well written. Well written enough that subsequent playthroughs were fun looking for the hints you'd been left of the payoff. I agree that evil was primarily thugish evil. That said, you could go through essentially playing a LS Jedi, get to the reveal, turn believably at that point, and if you saved Korriban for last, act entirely in character the rest of the way. However, the lack of options in K1 has caused me to lose interest over time. K2 left a bitter taste in my mouth at first, because of it's brutally unfinished state. Every game has cut content, but I've never seen a game with such gaping holes before in a major release. But the game has grown on me over time, unlike the original. Partly because you have more options, and partly because it's an interesting story concept that took several playthroughs to piece together entirely. To make sense of the whole picture, you 'have' to play LS male (for Atris), LS female (for Mical's information and Kreia's 'teasing' of him), and DS at least once each. So while K1 left a far superior initial impression, K2 is easily the more replayable game. Regarding NWN2 and lack of customization. The fact that you can't change individual armor pieces is annoying. The lack of dyeing options, the general lack of personalization options you are given for your PC. The fact it took much too long to allow for creature customization through a granny plug-in. The simple fact is NWN2 out of the box made life very hard on the module making community...and it is only now becoming more acceptable. And still not as it should be.

BethSoft is infamous for playing their cards close to the vest when it comes to their products, good or bad. I sometimes wonder if it's because they have a bit too much smugness in their staff for their own good. Daring to suggest they may have made a mistake is often a good way to get banned on their forums. I know that. So while I'd probably put myself in the 'cautiously optimistic camp' when it comes to FO3, I'm not saying anything more. I think they CAN pull it off because they do epic-scale, open-end exploration well. I'm worried because they have a nasty habit of jumping from one extreme to another in every product...and fixing what isn't broke. I was shocked at how gigantic a step backwards Oblivion was from Morrowind. I personally would be very happy if FO3 was a post-apoc Morrowind style, scope and quality game. As happy as FO1 & 2? Of course not. But I'm not looking for lightening in the bottle regardless of the title.

i think ME is biowares best game since kotor and it deserved to be game of the year...u should definately get it!! That's not saying much, though, is it? And I agree that MotB is an exceptional campaign and story. Much better than any of the NWN1 OCs (whether it's better than some of the community campaigns...*shrugs*) I don't think that they have addressed all the problems with the engine yet, and it still lacks the degree of customization the original had. NWN2 right now is a good vehicle for short to medium length SP campaigns (in terms of community building). But it is an inferior vehicle for long SP campaigns or MP play. As a result, it has not picked up a core piece of the original's audience, nor do I think it will. Let me put the importance of the toolset as a technical innovation in perspective on a personal level. If it were not for the community content of NWN, I would 'never' have picked up NWN2 at all. I dumped NWN once, and only bought it a second time because people insisted I give it a chance 'for the community content.' I would still be playing Morrowind, which I think was preferable "out of the box" to NWN1 or NWN2...and certainly Oblivion. In truth, I'd still probably be playing KotOR 1 & 2 and have little/no concern with fantasy setting RPGs (save perhaps the Witcher). It's only the community content and customization that Bioware built into NWN1 that gave that game it's legs. Like it or hate it, it represented a significant risk in terms of time and resources to create it and offer it to the community. Well, I don't know about MP as I never tried it, but I thought that NWN1's engine was pretty awful for long SP campaigns. Only allowing for one player controlled character really hurt the variety and my interest in playing anything longer than a few hours on NWN1's engine. Finally, the toolset really doesn't enter into the discussion of Bioware's abilities in making RPGs. To take your last point first, the toolset most definitely enters the discussion for NWN, since that was one of the primary intents of the game, and to dismiss what was a primary emphasis in design. You may not use it, or care about it, but it's most certainly part of the NWN franchise. And to ignore it in the discussion is faulty reasoning. As far as only controlling one PC goes, I honestly think NWN2 tried too hard to have it both ways with PC control. It made fights in the NWN2 OC incredibly sloppy. MOTB was easier...but in large part because the party was smaller. Besides, you're the hero, not the hero and the entire party. Although I like real interactions with my companions, I do NOT want to RP my party. Although I'd like something between the "character switching" routine of NWN2 and KotOR 1&2 and the vague command system of NWN1. I honestly think it's not in the spirit of an RPG to have total tactical command of every action of your NPCs. In Fallout you weren't able to take total command of your party either. Didn't keep that from being a great game. Did controlling one player hurt Fallout or Fallout 2's variety? I think the problem here is that people assume NWN was going to be like the IE games. It's not. And the comparison is apples and oranges. The only thing they have in common is the D&D franchise. Regardless of the mechanics of a combat system (provided I have a realistic chance of winning if I prepared properly) what I want out of an RPG is a believable and immersive role playing experience. The lack of customization in NWN2 compared to NWN1 makes for a marked lack of comparative immesrsion for a sustained campaign. The quality of writing in MoTB is exceptional and ambitious. But the vagaries of the engine and problems with PC customization linger. So while I agree that MoTB is preferable 'out of the box,' much work remains to be done to sell the community on investing it's time as it did with NWN1.

And I agree that MotB is an exceptional campaign and story. Much better than any of the NWN1 OCs (whether it's better than some of the community campaigns...*shrugs*) I don't think that they have addressed all the problems with the engine yet, and it still lacks the degree of customization the original had. NWN2 right now is a good vehicle for short to medium length SP campaigns (in terms of community building). But it is an inferior vehicle for long SP campaigns or MP play. As a result, it has not picked up a core piece of the original's audience, nor do I think it will. Let me put the importance of the toolset as a technical innovation in perspective on a personal level. If it were not for the community content of NWN, I would 'never' have picked up NWN2 at all. I dumped NWN once, and only bought it a second time because people insisted I give it a chance 'for the community content.' I would still be playing Morrowind, which I think was preferable "out of the box" to NWN1 or NWN2...and certainly Oblivion. In truth, I'd still probably be playing KotOR 1 & 2 and have little/no concern with fantasy setting RPGs (save perhaps the Witcher). It's only the community content and customization that Bioware built into NWN1 that gave that game it's legs. Like it or hate it, it represented a significant risk in terms of time and resources to create it and offer it to the community.

Judging people's motivations is always a dubious act. I didn't do it for any such reason at all. I did ti because quite frankly, the argument being used was so skewed as to no longer be a valid comparison. I have nothing against Obsidian, and I've been supporting them with my dollars the same as anyone else. For what it's worth, I don't care one bit about 'brands.' I care about the product. And as far as 'competing' goes, honestly I'd say there's a good bit of cooperation between the two, no? So putting them at odds seems unnecessary in my mind.

I find this discussion interesting. At the danger of being seen as a "Bioware fanboy" (which I'm far too old to be), I think something is...odd in this discussion. Bio is accused repeatedly of not being 'innovative' or 'edgy' enough, while Obsidian (and Troicha/BIS before) are held up as examples of this. And the comparison is made between "popular" art and "cinematic" art with filmakers. I find the comparison dubious for a simple reason. Martin Scorsese, Francis Coppola, et al, were technically innovative, not just innovative storytellers...indeed, most of their stories came from other sources. Coppola did his own screenplays, but they typically worked from other sources. Where they were innovative was in the technical aspect, in adapting the story to the visual medium. On that score, Bioware IS innovative. After all, it's 'their' licensed engines that the others have used. Witcher and NWN2 and KOTOR2 all come from the Aurora Engine Bioware developed. All the old BIS games (save Fallout, which is really what BIS' reputation is based on to the larger gaming community) were Infinity Engine games...again, primarily developed by Bioware. So whatever you think of their stories, they have invested a good deal in advancing the technology of RPG games. Futhermore, whatever one thinks of NWN's OCs (and I admit that the original OC is ordinary, SoU worse than that, and only Hordes a 'decent' story), the development of a Toolset that could be used by the community to create gaming environments of it's own represented a substanital risk and innovation. That has been pooh-poohed in this discussion because some people think the quality of them is lackluster. To that I say you haven't looked enough, Modules like Aielund, Crimson Tides of Tethyr, A Dance w/ Rogues, and some PWs match production qualities that most studios would dream of having. NWN2 comparatively has had limited success in that aspect because it did not embrace customization as the original did...and thus was less innovative, IMHO. Though I will concede that MoTB was an exceptional and ambitious story (though I would say the NWN2 OC was just as shallow as the NWN1 OC story). Does Obsidian write good stories? Yep. Are they ambitious? yep...in fact I think they are often TOO ambitious to recognize their limitations of time and resources and work within them (hence the issues with KotOR2 and NWN2). Do I hold out hope that they will be an exceptional development team moving forward? Yes. Am I willing to give them those accolades now? Not so fast. Let's see a truly finished product from them before we award them the mantle of Lordship over CRPGs.

I think if you hit the dialoges right you can get Atris to say she won't let another war pass her by...or something close enough to that...in the initial meeting. And that may very well be her motivation in leaking everything, to try to prove (to herself?) she is just as able to confront 'evil' as the Exile she despises, given the "right" circumstances. I'd agree that Kevar and Bindo are the two who are portrayed most favorably, along w/ little Yoda clone. I would also say that since Canon Revan is LS male, that the official interpretation on Bastila is probably "She pulled a Bindo" since her redemption is said to be on the basis of love.