random n00b

Perhaps it's because it's simply not possible to accurately gauge lost sales because of this? Absence of proof cannot, in this case, be taken as proof of anything, either way. Oh, but you are: Agreed. That's not the same you said before, though. Yes, yes. DRM is certainly not an insurmountable barrier, but again, nobody has argued that. It is however an unnecessarily annoying extra thing you need to worry about with PC games. I guess that, by turning it into a black and white issue (can play vs cannot play whatsoever), the point is much easier to defeat. If it's posted after quoting me, I'm going to assume it's directed at me. They aren't only posting in message boards. They are also not buying the games. So?

Because you say so. Ah, well, then. Indeed, defeatism has never accomplished anything. But hey, don't let me stop you from purchasing a copy for yourself, one for your child, and one for your wife. Because that's the right thing to do. Yes, you obviously know what you are talking about. Because that's exactly what happened with C&C:TFD; two years and a half after the release of the game, it's still bug-ridden, with EA openly stating they are focusing on other stuff. That is in spite of their boards (and customer support) being flooded with complaints. So yeah, they have shown to be sensitive to customer unhappiness. I'd stop buying new games and stick to MMOs that don't need that kind of garbage. Oh, and... Steam.

Yay, quote war. What? Suddenly you know this to be true? Whoa, where did the "we don't know either way" thing go? I'm sure you can bring numbers up to back your assertions, then. Because conformism isn't a good business philosophy. With that, we wouldn't have stuff like Steam. Sure, because publishers don't work with logic and numbers, and further, DRM suites are licensed for free. Thus, a single pirate forced to buy the game justifies the expense of putting DRM in. Eh, okay. You can really only stretch the "you don't know what publishers are thinking" argument so much. That's assuming every publisher in the sector implements DRM (SecuROM-like, as discussed in this thread), which is a fairly inaccurate assumption. And since we *don't* know how many those people are, this just holds no water. You've never had to search for a no-cd crack? What does that mean, that you always play with the CD in, or that you make your own no-CDs? I'd bow to your mad skillz, but then I remembered you wrote this: So, you're basically saying that you just put up with DRM, or that you have never encountered it, but you'd be able to get around it if you needed to. If the former, you are being affected by it. If the latter, you are obviously just lying, as evidenced by other posts in this thread, and in any case, you'd be affected in that instance. Yes, your point? I already stated I'm not trying to convince companies. If I would, this wouldn't be the best place to do so, don't you think? And that they think they have a good reason doesn't make it a good reason. Yeah, the devil's advocate sure is fun to play, eh? That's a (possibly intentionally?) misleading statement, but nice try. Are you saying that gamers have shown they'll go through the usual hassles to play games, or are you specifically referring to SecuROM? If the latter, that's strictly false, as at least one person hasn't bought Spore and MEPC based on it - me. Again, how this is significant depends on numbers. Numbers that I'm ardently waiting for you to post.

in b4 30 minutes Aw, snap!

Yes, it's very easy to debate somebody else's point when you take fragments of what they say out of context, and then misrepresent. I didn't say that SecuROM-like anti-copy systems (from here on simply DRM) make or break the deal for most people. My point was that perhaps aiming to encourage legit purchases would be a better way of getting some pirates to actually buy games, instead of implementing devices that are patently ineffective, and piss off *only* paying customers. In this context, a game without DRM is "less undesirable" than one with. Indeed. Because while DRM does not stop piracy in the least, it does make things like lending and second-hand sales next to impossible. Only spending time finding a solution for circumventing (and cleansing your system from) copy protection, which may or may not be as simple as finding a no-cd, is added on top of everything else you need to do to get the game working already. So it's affecting you right there. And please, don't patronize about PC gaming. This is just some company that's decided to make things more difficult than they need to be for no good reason. It's not "how things are", as it's not a prevalent practice, and it's never been.

It wasn't olive oil, even though it was sold as such or as a perfectly valid substitute. It was actually processed rapeseed oil which apparently contained some toxic or another. Nasty business. Worst of it is there's no way to avoid this kind of thing. EDIT: Schizokrezack?

A different distribution model that is far less annoying that SecuROM, and infinitely more effective at preventing piracy? If you don't accept it as a counterexample, I have another: Stardock.

No, not really. Fear of lawsuits isn't a factor at all, as far as I know, because of what I said before. Spoofing is a non-issue because there are reliable cracks sites that don't allow commenting and only post verified patches. Image size is the only valid argument, but it has no relation whatsoever to DRM. Counterexample: Steam. There IS an alternative. Laziness, lack of business creativity and most importantly, inertia with regards to established practices prevent any other alternatives from being explored.

Um, no, they can't. Blocking the game from connecting to the Internet is as simple as Zonealarm. And they can't bring any lawsuits against you if it's not illegal in your jurisdiction to download games (and, in many jurisdictions outside the US, it's not). Not only that, but the little fish are just too many and too insignificant to go after. Not having broadband has nothing to do with this, as in any case, you wouldn't be able to download it, regardless of anti-copy. If the best argument you can think of for companies still using DRM is "well, they must have a reason, they can't be THAT stupid, right?", then I'll simply refer you to the reason behind it. As one of the fundamental characteristics of the universe, it's not something to be taken lightly. As I said, only those with active consciences pay for games. And, as for SecuROM not being "all that draconian", I guess I just have a very low tolerance for bull****.

Perhaps you just haven't learned how? You couldn't walk, talk, or do math at certain points in your life, but you can now. And the fact that solipsist ideas hadn't occurred to you before you heard them does not preclude the possibility that with time, you could have thought of it on your own. The only way that argument could work is if you could somehow prove that there is some piece of knowledge or idea that is impossible (and I mean it literally) for your mind to comprehend, but not to other people. And there is simply no way of reliably demonstrating that... because the opposite is not falsifiable. The game analogy was meant to illustrate that just because it's an artificial reality, a constructed environment, godlike abilities aren't guaranteed to the actors within. In fact, it is the very fact that human beings are inherently finite that makes the whole notion of solipsism "plausible". If you were an all-powerful, all-knowing entity encompassing all of reality, you would be, by definition, able to tell whether the universe is a fabrication or not. Otherwise, you wouldn't really be "godlike". Your failure to appreciate that would hurt me deeply... if I wasn't already above such things. Seriously though, would you really want that? How boring!

I don't know. Because it's true? There may not be many of us (probably not enough to make a dent in sales overall), but that doesn't mean we don't exist. People weren't too aware of spywares and adwares say, ten years ago, but they are now. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, and perhaps if the real deal behind DRM gets more exposure, it WILL be enough of a problem for companies. Even EA changed their corporate policy regarding acquired studios, and I don't think it took anything more than a lot of badmouthing from fans. Yeah, silent protest in that vein is totally pointless. However, the rest of that paragraph doesn't make much sense, from a business perspective at least. Sure, the publisher can find any number of excuses to dismiss lost sales as "they would have pirated it anyway", and then justify the implementation of obnoxious DRM systems, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still lost sales, and that's bad for them, and for them alone. Buggy games are a cause of concern due to potential lost sales, but DRM shouldn't be subject to the same kind of scrutiny? That's a fairly self-defeating approach to it, inventing excuses to explain lost sales rather than making the product as desirable a purchase as possible, don't you think? Further, that's the exact reverse of the argument often used by pirates that "I wouldn't have bought it anyway". The difference is that pirates aren't in to make a living. But I can see where you're coming from. I really can't see how it is *not* a waste of money - illegally acquiring games couldn't be any easier or quicker. This simply isn't true. While you may be able to circumvent copy protection in the games you legally own, it doesn't mean you are unaffected by it. For one, you are being forced to spend more time searching for a solution that isn't always drag-'n-drop, this also forces you to depend on third parties to enjoy something you have paid for. But since you are taking a purely practical approach, this isn't much of a problem. But the worse comes with the fact that sidestepping the protection with a no-CD fix doesn't prevent the malware from being installed to begin with. Again, you are forced to remove it manually, which may or may not cause more problems.

This isn't really evidence either way. Have you ever tried going through walls in a game in which no "noclip" codes exist?

Racism is racism, regardless of the rhetoric you wrap it in. If I was a white person openly claiming I'm voting for McCain solely on the basis that he's white, do you really believe I wouldn't be labeled a racist? And why should it be any different for blacks? The minority excuse is disingenuous and a flimsy cover for revanchist racism. Positive discrimination is bull****, and good only for causing social friction. Yes, that's what I was interested in as it's what pertains to the thread. And it's not surprising you assume it will, given your opinions on the issue. I don't like the light you are presenting the McCain thing under, but as I lack all the facts, all I'm going to do is venture a guess that allegations of illegitimate (lawl) children simply cast a shadow on any politician's honesty. At any rate, it's a nice perspective that it's the racist cranks that'll ultimately decide who gets to be Prez. Reassuring, really.

I could do without your finger in the wound. Thank you.

That's fundamentally different from the current scenario of rampant piracy how? You only pay for games if you feel morally obliged to.

Has anyone actually made the claim that DRM actually causes significant loss of sales? I haven't seen that, myself, and personally I don't believe it does. But that has nothing to do with not wanting to install malware in my computer and/or waste time begging for something I have already paid for. That's as "meaningful" as it gets for me.

Well, personally, I would try and get hold of something a bit more tangible than personal anecdotes and impressions before calling my fellow countrymen racists so broadly, but that's just me. Mind you, I'm not saying Americans aren't racist, as I don't live there and lack the most basic elements to form an opinion. But it's not pretty to do that kind of allegations without some sort of backing. That, and all my alarms go off when somebody starts throwing around the word "people" without making clear who these "people" are or where they got their facts from. Li'l personality quirk o' mine. It would be great if you could find the source for those figures, too. Anyway, that's not quite the kind of racism I had in mind when I made my comment, but I guess "reverse" racism is still racism. I think you give them too much credit.

Are you implying that racism is still prevalent enough in the American general public for that to have a significant impact on a Presidential election? Nice.

I don't know about this, man. While action-driven games may not be your cup of tea, there isn't necessarily a stupid design decision behind them. I mean, I love story-driven games as much as anyone else, but sometimes I'm in the mood for just some good ol' hack & slash. Of course, if the game is marketed as something else...

That's still total bollocks. I purchase games to play games, not to wrestle with their DRM - especially when pirates (and yes, this game WILL be pirated) have it much easier. More and more games are shipping with skimpy manuals or no manuals at all, but with this kind of official malware, they'll have to start printing leaflets on how to operate the DRM properly. This is just another iteration of the absurd idea that legit users should go through all the hoops the dev/publisher wants them to, while illegit users aren't affected whatsoever and all under the pretense that these measures are undertaken to leave illegit users out. Brilliant, indeed. Haha, good luck with that, especially in the face of Diablo 3.

It took me a while to realize that you were referring to smoking pipes, being completely ignorant of what "corncob" and "briar" pipes are. For some reason, I thought you had acquired two plumbing implements on which you intended to rely to prove the superiority of your point. Then the "choice of weapon" comment... nevermind.

Awesome thread Bok! Do you really play 38 games regularly, or you just add an extra drive when you are running low on space? Seriously, maybe we can set up a few games based on what people have installed. Deus Ex, Diablo 2 LOD, Starfleet Command 2, Wing Commander Kilrathi Saga, Wing Commander Standoff, Lego Star Wars II, TIE Fighter DOS, PES 6. A reasonable 8 for those of you that are mathematically impaired. And I still manage to procrastinate far better than any of you.

And I've heard (read here even, possibly?) that EA customer support is dismal. Their "case by case" approach to the issue essentially means that unless you can get a hold of a supervisor somehow, you are basically wasting your time. To be fair, I don't like badmouthing companies based on hearsay, but even in the BIO forums I've seen people complain about the SecuROM suite preventing them from playing their legitimately acquired games. That's very bad publicity, even if it's only anecdotal. It's a shame really, I was really looking forward to MEPC, and will immediately shell out the cash if/when they remove this thing.

How's that "realistic"? "Realistic" would be tossing in a 'nade, and closing the door. Not quite so glamourous, to be sure. Hence my comment.