cactot

Thanks anyways. Real quick just want to clarify that critical hits are separate from penetration ie I can penetrate without a critical or could I potentially critical without a penetration? Yes to both. Crits give +50% to your penetration value but are otherwise separate from over/under penetration calculations.

It might be, but that combo wouldn't come online until level 16, and I suspect without iron wheel the armor from bear form isn't going to be enough to reduce damage down by 50%+ to offset the increased damage taken. Typically these games (particularly on the highest difficulty settings) are hardest at the beginning of the game, which is when this combo would be at it's most vulnerable. By the time you get to 16+ you are likely going to be steamrolling enemies with any decent build. Combos that are reliant on abilities that you have to wait 3/4 of the game to get don't seem worth it to me, but YMMV.

I've seen that, I'm hoping to find out what the benefits of those subclasses actually are. Assuming you don't get all the companions at the same time, it would suck to make Tekehu a pure chanter (losing out on the ability to make him a druid) if Konstanten ends up having a more interesting subclass benefit.

Helwalker and Shattered Pillar aren't the only options. Nalpazca and standard monks can still take full advantage of duality without being incapable of staying in melee combat because of the +50% damage taken. Helwalker basically forces you into a ranged build on higher difficulty settings. Luckily they have the potential to fill the ranged DPS role exceptionally well. Enough so that I suspect that all the top ranged DPS builds will be either single or multi class helwalker with enduring dance. Nalzpaca seems the strongest overall, with the disadvantages of having to invest heavily in alchemy and spend your money on maintaining a supply of drugs (which may induce opportunity costs if currency is in short supply). Shattered Pillar seems the "convenient" option that will allow you to spam abilities to your hearts content at the expense of losing half your passive benefits.

I haven't been watching any of the streams (don't want story spoilers), but I am curious regarding the subclass abilities for all the companions with custom subclasses (like Tekehu, Xoti, etc.). Has any of that information been revealed in any of the streams?

If streetfighter is your favorite option go with that, it will work out fine. Because of all the invisibility abilities it should have fine survivability, particularly if you are going for a defensive build. Your biggest problem will be lack of guile, so you will want a single class chanter to keep the brilliant inspiration on him.

It looks like a real strong combo, the shifted natural weapons are quite strong and wildstrike passives seem like they will up that damage quite a bit. Combined with lightning strikes and all the wound-powered attacks you should be able to tear things up. You won't really get to take part in the loot progression sub-game though, not sure if that is a boon or a bane in your opinion, but it's worth considering.

Won't the confusion from berzerker make all your phrases buff the enemies and/or damage your allies? Personally I am all over the map. I know I want to focus on a bruiser build (tanky DPS), but having a hard time deciding. I am really liking the way monks (shattered pillar specifically) are shaping up, but I can't decide between multi classing with Devoted, Kind Wayfarer, Barbarian or Shifter, they all look good. After watching the full trees the Barbarian also looks a lot more appealing than I initially thought, so now I am even more indecisive than I was previously. I am confused about some of the stacking though. Do the attack speed bonuses from rage stack with lightning strikes? If so, +45% attack speed sounds pretty good. Also, does the con bonus from duality of mortal presence stack with fit/hardy? Chanters also look stupid good, but there are enough chanter companions available that I will not make the PC one.

I'd for sure have at least one single class chanter in the party, the high level phrases and invocations are great. I want double healing and party lifesteal all the time asap. I would probably take a multiclass chanter as well, as there are too many good phrases for a single chanter to keep up. Plus they have boatloads of good invocations even at low level. All the melee look good in multiclass. Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Barbarian all look like great single class options too. Rogue will depend on whether you stay invisible after attacking with the 20s invis they get. If so, 20s of non-stop assassination definitely makes single class worthwhile. Otherwise because of the high guile cost of their abilities I would probably multi class them. Luckily they have great synergy with just about every other class. Ranger looks like it would be best multiclass (Fighter, Rogue, Chanter, Cipher, Monk would make strong ranged DPS options), but going single class seems wasteful unless you really want to focus on the pet. Ranged DPS would be better optimized with multiclass builds. If driving flight works with 'the Long Pain' that could be absolutely nutso for ranged DPS. Wizard, Druid, Cipher and Priest all seem solid as either single class or multi class.

You notice that it says 500% weapon reach? That says to me that reach weapons will have a reach of 8.75m with long pain.

My first impression is that single class chanter is going to be outstanding. Life steal for the team, and 100% healing received (which I presume stack). Also, they have the only source of Brilliant that I saw, which seems like one of the strongest inspirations in the game, since it restores resource points. I like that fighter has a full attack ability at low level now. Charge seems great too. Paladin got some significant nerfs (eternal devotion and faith and conviction), but have some fantastic abilities at higher level. Zeal on kill? Heck yes! Self-rez? Yup! They look to be among the best healers in the game (numerous rezzes, heals with very short cast times, etc) and should excel in both single and multi class builds. I love that the Monk gets a passive flurry proc. They look great overall.

If you want to stack buffs, you'd probably want to have all the chanters in your party. Pallegina, Tekehu, Fassina, Konstanten. If each of them have 2 phrases going constantly you would have permenant resistance to resolve, con, dex and strength afflictions, bonus deflection will and fort, damage barriers, lash damage, and two more of your choice (or you could forego the two extra and take xoti for priest buffs).

Also, terrifying roar from bear form should enable sneak attack's bonus damage.

In another thread I posted an excel file which works as DPS calculator. It has quite a few abilities added, weapon modals, attributes, weapon styles etc. It's a work in progress but it is functional. You could also give me the particular scenario you had in mind and I could provide you with an answer. You mind linking to the thread?

Okay, so I am trying to quantify the impact of penetration. Here is the (probably incorrect) guesstimations I am making based upon other games: Armor ratings follow a semi-normal distribution, with values near the median being the most frequent, and low armor values being relatively more common than a high armor value equivalently far from the median (due to both caster mobs of all levels and "trash" mobs having low armor values, while extreme high armor values are limited to elite mobs). Here is the distribution odds that I came up with (source: pulled straight from my tush) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 0.03 0.04 0.05 0.06 0.07 0.08 0.09 0.1 0.11 0.1 0.09 0.07 0.05 0.03 0.01 0.01 0.01 Based upon that we should be able to find the average damage bonus/malus to apply to the formula. 8 pen 12 pen (Crit) 0.25 30% bonus 0.075 0.42 30% bonus 0.126 0.38 no bonus 0.52 no bonus 0.1 25% malus 0.025 0.03 25% malus 0.0075 0.09 50% malus 0.045 0.01 50% malus 0.005 0.18 75% malus 0.135 0.02 75% malus 0.015 sum 0.205 sum 0.0275 mult 0.8298755187 mult 0.9732360097 10 pen 15 pen (crit) 0.33 30% bonus 0.1 0.52 30% bonus 0.156 0.49 no bonus 0.47 no bonus 0.07 25% malus 0.0175 0.01 25% malus 0.0025 0.05 50% malus 0.025 0 50% malus 0 0.06 75% malus 0.045 0 75% malus 0 sum 0.0875 sum 0.0025 mult 0.9195402299 mult 0.9975062344 So a non devoted with an 8 pen weapon would have an average damage on a hit of: (100*1.075)(0.8298) = 89.2% damage With a 30% might bonus: (100*1.075)(1.095) = 107.6% damage On a crit: (100*(1 + 0.126 + 0.25))(0.973) = 133.88 With a 30% might bonus and a crit: (100*(1 + 0.126 + 0.25))(1.2225) =168.22 Devoted, regular hit: (100*1.1)(0.9195) = 101.15% damage Above, with might bonus: (100*1.1)(1.2125) = 133.38% damage Devoted, crit: (100*(1.156 + 0.5))(0.9975) = 165.19% damage Devoted with might, crit: (100*(1.156 + 0.5))(1.2975) = 214.87% damage Not too shabby! Well crap, it ruined all my formatting

Hmm, so if I am reading that correctly, a 50% damage bonus would be a multiplier of 1.5, but a 50% damage malus would be a multiplier of 0.666... (a reduction of 33%, which means the unmodified damage is 50% higher than the malus-adjusted damage) That makes sense, as it makes it a little harder to mitigate damage down to 0. Ultimately, if you ignore other factors that are too difficult to account for (like penetration/under penetration) the simplified formula I used before is still roughly a good guideline. The primary differences would be that the non disciplined strikes damage percents would all go up by 3.2, and the disciplined strikes damage percents would go up by half that. So it would reduce the benefit of disciplined strikes slightly. Just for fun, lets see what it looks like when you have a 30% might bonus with the new adjustments (still ignoring under and over penetration), and see how that changes things. Base, with no attack advantage or disadvantage: 1-30 miss 31-50 graze (-50% damage additive 30% might bonus in same step, for a final damage multiplier o 0.83 (a 17% total damage reduction)) 51-100 hit (30% might bonus) (83*0.2)+(130*0.5) = 81.6% average weapon damage Same but for devoted (which would be a 5 point attack advantage because of per buff): Crit damage would be (100*(1+0.5))*1.3) = 195 damage. (83*0.1)+(130*0.35)+(195*0.3) = 112.3% weapon damage Damage increase: 37.6% It looks like the effects of might slightly decrease the relative benefit of disciplined strikes, that is a bit surprising to me. Here is another one with lash. Base, with no attack advantage or disadvantage: 1-30 miss 31-50 graze (+30% damage applied first, then 0.66 multiplier from damage malus = 85.8 total damage) 51-100 hit (30% lash bonus) (85.8*0.2)+(130*0.5) = 85.8% average weapon damage And with Lash and might bonus: 1-30 miss 31-50 graze (base * lash = 130 damage, then multiplier of 0.83 for 107.9) 51-100 hit (base * lash = 130, then multiplied by 30% might bonus) (107.9*0.2)+(169*0.5) = 106.1% average weapon damage This is quite close to the benefit seen by a devoted with disciplined strikes, and higher than you would see from a non-devoted fighter with disciplined strikes (which would do 102.6% average damage, because they crit for 32.5 less damage). Considering lightning strikes still has a 35% speed bonus, so DPS wise it would come out well ahead of even the devoted with disciplined strikes. Penetration related damage will swing the damage back in favor of fighters (particularly devoted) by some amount, but it is extremely difficult to quantify by exactly how much. Then put all of them together, devoted with the lash and might: Crit damage would be (100*(1+0.5+0.3))*1.3) = 234 damage. (107.9*0.1)+(169.5*0.35)+(234*0.3) = 121.3% average weapon damage

Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood.

Int doesn't impact spell damage/healing, might does. I'll let someone else verify, but I believe that damage shield is fixed and doesn't scale like healing and damage variables do.

I hadn't considered the idea that each target impacted by the AOE had a different crit roll that was eligible for activating flurry, nor would I have thought to use rods in melee combat. Good stuff! I wonder if that would apply to driving flight as well? Also, one thing you might know the answer to one thing I am not clear on: The fighter's mob stance refers to "threatened" targets and targets "around" the fighter. Neither of these are ever defined. Do you happen to know if the area encompassed by these two variables is influenced by weapon reach? If so, using a reach weapon like a staff or a pike could be very effective with mob stance turned on. It would significantly increase your ability to stack recovery time buffs, and would cascade to hit far more targets when you do score a killing blow.

I was a little confused regarding how good Disciplined Strikes actually is, so I thought that I would actually take a few minutes to try and figure it out. Based upon my understanding of the game mechanics as they are today, I did a quick calculation to see exactly how good disciplined strikes is in various situations. I have used these three scenarios to see how the benefit varies based upon stat adjustments: No advantage (attack/deflection even), +10 attack advantage, -10 attack disadvantage. Base attack formula is as follows, roll 1d100 and adjust based upon advantage/disadvantage and compare to the following: 1-30 miss 31-50 graze (-50% damage) 51-100 hit 101+ crit (+25% damage, +50% penetration) IMPORTANT NOTE: Because the penetration system is nearly impossible to normalize and account for I will be ignoring it. In reality crits perform a little better than shown above because it will cause over-penetration in some cases, and remove under-penetration problems in other cases. I will assume the base damage is a static 100, to simplify the math. For a baseline we have average damage with matched attack/defense. I will be using shorthand that looks like this: (100*0.5)+(50*0.2) = 60% weapon damage For explanation of what I am writing we have full damage (100) with a 50% likelihood (0.5) + half damage graze (50) with a 20% likelihood (0.2) for a total of 0.6, or 60% weapon damage on average. I left off crit, as you cannot roll over 100 on a 1d100, so crits shouldn't be possible in this situation. Here is the same example, but with a 10 point attack advantage. This would look like: 1-20 miss 21-40 graze (-50% damage) 41-90 hit 91+ crit (+25% damage, +50% penetration) (100*0.5)+(50*0.2)+(125*0.1) = 72.5% weapon damage You can see in this one we now have a 10% (0.1) of doing crit damage (+25%, for a total of 125) Moving the other way we have a 10 point attack disadvantage. (100*0.4)+(50*0.2) = 50% weapon damage Based upon this, you see that if base chance to hit is 50%, any advantage is converted directly into crit chance, and any disadvantage is removed directly from crit chance. If crit chance is 0%, further disadvantage is subtracted from the chance of making a "hit". Disciplined strikes, because of intuitive, has a slightly adjusted base (because it gives +5 accuracy from perception increases). Here is what the base looks like: 1-25 miss 26-35 graze 36-45 graze converted to hit 46-70 hit 71-95 hit converted to crit 96+ crit For simplicity, because of the 50% graze to hit and hit to crit, and as far as I know a graze cannot convert to a hit and then convert to a crit, what I have done is take half the BASE ranges (which are determined by accuracy relative to defense) and cut them in half, allocating the upper "half" to upgrade damage type. For example, with even attack/deflection there will be a 25% chance of getting a hit that is upgraded to a crit. If deflection goes up by 10 (for a 40% base chance to get a hit) there would be a 20% chance of getting a hit that is upgraded to a crit. From this point forward I will mostly not be showing my work, and will just show the shorthand. Average damage (matched attack and defense): (50*0.1)+(100*0.35)+(125*0.3) = 5 + 35 + 37.5 = 77.5% weapon damage Damage increase: 29% Average damage (10 point attack advantage) (50*0.1)+(100*0.35)+(125*0.4) = 5 + 35 + 50 = 90% weapon damage Damage increase: 24% Average damage (10 point attack disadvantage) 1-35 miss 36-45 graze 46-55 graze converted to hit 56-77.5 hit 77.5-100 hit converted to crit (50*0.1)+(100*0.325)+(125*0.225) = 65.625% weapon damage Damage increase: 31% It is also worth re-calculating it for Devoted, as they get twice the standard crit damage bonus. Devoted average damage: (50*0.1)+(100*0.35)+(150*0.3) = 5 + 35 + 45 = 85% weapon damage Damage increase: 41.7% Devoted average damage (10 point attack advantage) (50*0.1)+(100*0.35)+(150*0.4) = 5 + 35 + 60 = 100% weapon damage Damage increase: 37.9% Devoted average damage (10 point attack disadvantage) (50*0.1)+(100*0.325)+(150*0.225) = 5 + 32.5 + 28.125 = 71.25% weapon damage Damage increase: 42.5% Conclusion: The intuitive buff is more impactful the lower your accuracy is compared to the target's deflection, and is about a 12% higher damage increase on Devoted than on a base fighter. Compared to similar buffs: Eternal devotion (Paladin) + 20% lash damage Lightning strikes (Monk) 35% attack speed + 30% lash damage. Swift Flurry (Monk) 35% attack speed + (average weapon damage * (1 + (crit chance * ( ∑ 0.3^n )) Since ∑ 0.3^n = 0.4286 at 100% crit chance it would do 42.86% extra damage. Lightning strikes is the highest average damage in most cases, with a total of 75.5% damage increase (1.3*1.35). In order to match that with Swift Flurry you would have to hit 70% crit chance. That would mean you would need a 45 point accuracy advantage in conjunction with the intuitive buff. It would be effectively impossible to get without the intuitive buff (you would need +70 accuracy advantage). Thoughts? Let me know if I messed up any assumptions or any of my math.

Yeah, I can't ever play a BW (despite liking their bonuses) because I almost always choose benevolent and diplomatic responses and never choose cruel. Luckily KW have a pretty strong bonus, so it's not too much of an inconvenience.

Seems like it should work fine, BW gives a minor damage buff and the sickened affliction. The Holy Slayer has copious amounts of damage when using FoD from stealth, enough so that you are still going to do enough damage to one shot many mobs even without optimizing for damage by going BW. For example, in Scott Lufkin's Slayer demonstration assainating the Skulking Terror did 261 damage, only 35 of that was corrode damage from the BW. 226 is still a boat load of damage. In return you would get a lot of extra survivability for your whole team if you go KW. Seems like a good trade-off to me.

Cypher abilities are all considered "spells", including Soul Annihilation. Chanter invocations are likewise locked out, although you will still chant and accrue phrases. Ranger ghost heart pet summon is okay. It turns out Trickster spells are considered rogue abilities (they cost Guile) and are usable while shifted. I didn't find anything else that was locked out on other classes. All paladin abilities and ranger abilities I tried worked. Awesome, thanks!

Is there a list of which classes abilities are usable in a shifter's animal form? From what I can gather: Yes - Fighter Rogue (non-trickster) Monk Barbarian Ranger No - Wizard Priest ??? - Paladin Chanter Rogue (trickster spells) Ranger (ghost heart summon)

Do paladin abilities like flames of devotion and sworn enemy count as spells? If not, a goldpact shifter might be a solid combo. Bear form puts you at 14 armor with no recovery time malus, with eternal devotion and greater wildstrike you're at 80% lash damage too.