Erik-Dirk

Really what i'm asking is how obsidian could possible justify multiclass characters getting not only an essentially free extra set of level 0 skills, but another 7 ability points to spend?

I think we're all disappointed with the single class tree. However I think the following changes really need to be made: Single class receive 2 ability points at character creation, multi class only receive 1 ability point to pay for the level 0 skills Multi-Class shouldn't receive an extra ability point every 3 levels

So I know we haven't had a chance to check out tier 8 or 9 abilities but the question is does it matter? Even if they are good enough to equalize or surpass a multi class we will still have spent at least 3/4 of the game under powered. Now realistically obsidian probably can't fully balance single and multiclass potential without introducing very ridged rules. Baldurs gate didn't allow multiclass between melee classes or any paladin, both classes need to individually level up, and we still had multi classes like the kensai-mage dominating. The current system gives unnecessary bonuses to multiclass characters: A free, often very powerful attribute or two at character creation. 1/3 extra ability points. Do we really need these extra bonuses? Power level does not seem to do that much and access to higher tiers is not that valuable when you consider Fighter/Ciphers: Fighter/Ciphers get both constant recovery and soul whip, free at character creation Single classes get access to veterans recovery or draining whip two levels earlier (Which when you think about it just brings them on par with the multiclass) As a partial fix: all level 0 abilities should be halved in value when multi classing (I.e. soul whip adds 10% damage) (perhaps with an option to spend a point at level up to get the other half) Both single and multi class receive the same number of ability points at level up.

Not sugarcoating everything doesn't make me aggressive. So apparently this is ok for you but not for me? Or is it just when your bearing the brunt of it that being direct is totally unacceptable or "simply disgusting" How many posts need to devolve into these sorts of discussions before you consider that maybe your the problem? What you and I are doing is different. You're not even part of the discussion, yet you come here brandishing, declaring victors while adding zero to the overall discussion. At least Andrea had a stance, even if he didn't have a point, you don't even have that, you just have a chip on your shoulder. I started the topic and witnessed you derailing yet another thread through your profound lack of social skills and I called you out on it. The fact that one person has left the discussion and others have jumped in to ask you to change your tune should suggest that maybe you need to change the way you conduct yourself. Might is multiplicative in deadfire so has a much bigger impact now.

Isn't casting time actually an opportunity to seriously differentiate between the classes of magic? Ciphers and druid could generally be fast cast but hit a lot softer, wizards and priest could generally be slower yet have a more profound impact.

Not sugarcoating everything doesn't make me aggressive. So apparently this is ok for you but not for me? Or is it just when your bearing the brunt of it that being direct is totally unacceptable or "simply disgusting" How many posts need to devolve into these sorts of discussions before you consider that maybe your the problem?

On the off chance that you didn't pick up on this. You didn't win that argument Ninjamestari. AndreaColombo mentally tallied your forum trolling points and decided your really not worth it.

Balance: the plus 40% damage as well as another armor piercing talent is going to make it kind of hard to make a viable single class without opening up seriously overpowered multi classes. If you take steps to bring single and multi class somewhat down to the same level you can then more easily apply a general buff to the class. E.g. Carnage generates no focus but all basic attacks generate 3x more focus. But your right that suggestion probably belongs in a "why would you choose single class" thread

The strength/resolve change has badly affected the hybrid classes, most notably the druid and cipher. However the druid can reasonably dump either strength or resolve while still performing well in the other area and are arguably a very strong hybrid to begin with (Once casting is fixed). Base class ciphers however require strength regardless of role they are to fill making them much harder to build. Solution: Link soul whip directly to focus generation and base soul whip on resolve, however soul whip is still applied to total physical damage to prevent might being a total dump stat. eg 1. Strength 10 = 100% Resolve 14 = 40% + 12% = 100 * 52 = 52% of damage generates focus eg 2. Strength 6 = 88% Resolve 18 = 40% + 24% = 88 * 64 = 56% of damage generates focus Keep in mind that the second example would actually do less damage but generate more focus so strength is more important than it seems. Also to make it possible to balance base class ciphers with single class it may be necessary to make soul whip not apply to any attack which uses another classes resources e.g. rage etc eg 2. Strength 6 = 88% Resolve 18 = 20% + 24% = 88 * 44 = 38% of damage generates focus

Part of the problem is also that all weapon sets are expected to have a very similar DPS and only slight difference in AP, also enemies generally wont adjust attacks based on your armor: Light Weapons Very High DPS Very Low AP Medium Weapons Medium DPS Medium AP Heavy Weapons Low DPS Very High AP If you deal 2x damage with Light Weapons vs Heavy Weapons then under penetration deals 60% damage rather than 30% This also allows for greater flexibility of builds We could go all DPS assuming well never penetrate Constitution could have value for light weapon light armor characters (Some heal 50% health rather than 50hp spells may be required) Use Light & Medium weapon sets with class skills to achieve penetration Use Medium/Heavy weapons and focus on DPS class skills Medium Armour is actually useful as you escape the slaughter of light weapons and high recovery form heavy armor. I've explained this very badly but what i'm trying to get at is that a shortage of AP/DR has a very drastic impact, if you allow for greater variance in other areas sometimes balance can be achieved.

Kind Wayfarers are never a weak subclass. For power aspect in current beta, I will rank Goldpact > Bleak walker = Kind wayfarers > Darcozzi > Shieldbearer. Shield Bearers would probably be the best to present as a base class then and restore the malus to every other class. Also I feel Shield Bearer should be able to heal themselves. (They'd want to continue holding the threat at bay themselves rather than retreat and heal the injured)

Obsidian probably had this idea that a new player shouldn't be forced to choose a penalty at character creation, however I think this could easily be solved by removing the malus for either the Kind Wayfarers or Shield Bearers only. Their ethos both essentially match your stereotypical paladin and their powers/malus are pretty underwhelming so they're already pretty perfect to present as the "Base Class" Paladin.

Aren't we getting a little hung up on casters as well? Is the added deflection really worth it for the animal companion alone? If not then isn't all this discussion a moot point because we still need to buff deflection for the ranger class?

@hifazar My point was always regarding the table by MaxQuest which had essentially the following "Resolve was not useful for casters, now it is really useful." I was merely pointing out that for a fair comparison you have to add the counter "Might was really useful for a caster, now it's not useful." Your point seems to be that it is possible to build a caster that benefits from strength, however most of these are builds that will benefit from high deflection (resolve) I kind of agree that not all stats should be essential if you focus on a very particular build, however if you accept this then you have to agree that there was never a problem with the mechanics in the first place. @ maxquest: I also mentioned before that resolve is useless to ranged casters and resolve is useless to ranged builds should be listed as a single item. Also did you intentionally leave out all the role play pros/cons of the change?

Summon animation. Also a true instant cast would be an unfair advantage (if very small) as you could instantly change damage type (regular weapon switch takes time)

Hilfazer, what's your point? In all those situations deflection will also be very useful as presumably the caster is in melee. Mechanically all that has changed for casters is this: Might was always useful, resolve was situational. Now resolve is always useful, strength is extremely situational. Strength is now more of a dump stat than resolve ever was for Ranged Casters, resolve has always been a useful stat to any melee build.

You have pretty much listed Res is useless for ranged characters twice which is very misleading in terms of pros and cons You forgot that strength/might is now pretty much useless to casters. (Unless they enter melee, in which case deflection will also be useful again meaning there was never a problem)

Its invalid because Deadfire solved the problem by doing dialogue checks mostly based on skills, rather than attributes. Issue wasn't how might influenced combat, but that a game recognized my wizard as a beefcake against my wishes. Previous system, made defining role of your character easy and elegant, while right now you have to dive deeper to see what your class will really benefit from. If this change has been made for role play reasons I'd argue that the strength of a quick nimble assassin breaks immersion to a far greater degree, at least a caster moving a boulder could be explained by use of telekinetic powers or magically enhance strength etc.

I feel pretty confident that obsidian will do a better job checking the interactions this time around, (no looking death godlikes in the eye) The Muscle Wizard argument is kind of invalid unless your also willing to bring up all the physical damage types that shouldn't be affected by strength: Guns, Crossbow, Rapier, Stiletto etc. If we're only looking for a reason to make casters choose resolve there is always the old spell failure mechanic. Or perhaps if we do succeed in interrupting a spell then casters will receive massive damage etc.

I know someone suggested it before but removing recovery for all spells does look like it'd work much better mechanically: This essentially allows casting to be sped up without reducing the chance for an interrupt at all. Line of effect spells would require the ability to prep. move. and release as discussed. Of course armour would need to have two listed penalties, increase spell cast time and increase recovery.

I like what obsidian intend with long cast times but realistically they only have two options if they want casters to still be viable. Nerf range and weapon damage so that casters can get off multiple spells (Much longer battles) or bin the idea entirely. Damage spells can only be boosted to a certain point, unless we want the potential for our tanks to be instantly killed if we fail to interrupt an enemy spell. Obviously buff/debuffs should last longer than their cast time

Actually the reason this wouldn't be a good idea is exactly the opposite, A monk/devoted could choose to specialize in sabers gaining the devoted bonus and have no penalty for fists if they required crush damage, or wanted a range weapon. That being said the lower power level for multiclass may already compensate for this. Actually there doesn't have to be a balance, the modal could override the monk bonus so long as that was clearly stated at character creation. A utility modal is a good solution though.

Well... obviously this isn't the ONLY solution, the malus could simply not apply to fists/universal weapons. However I think a fist proficiency is a better option as otherwise choosing crushing weapons as a devoted/monk would be an illogical choice. Also negating the malus for universal weapons would essentially mean there is no drawback to choosing devoted for the end game.

As one of the players who were totally baffled by all the priest spells in POE1 I have to say this seems like a really terrible solution. If players have to spend points at level up to buy new spells then doesn't this provide a further barrier to understand the potential of different spells? Especially if a we have other passive options available instead of trying different spells. What's was wrong with the cipher system? where we had to choose a spell or two at level up. And received separate points to spend on other abilities. It's still a gradual learning curve, locks out some spells, but allowed a casual gamer to easily explore different strategies. This solution won't overly impact the serious gamers who'll take the time to carefully plan spell progressions and explore during multiple playthroughs or the very casual gamer who never tried the other spells in POE1. However will likely result in a larger negative experience for the semi serious gamers.

I'm sure this topic has come up before but it is something thats been bugging me. In pillars 1, why were people complaining about stun lock preventing a solo run? Shouldn't the issue really be that the game isn't challenging enough when using a party? If it's possible to solo on the hardest setting I'd argue that the devs have failed to accommodate the most skilled players. If its possible with 3 perfectly complementing characters then fine but demanding mechanics that allow a solo run rather then a higher difficulty setting seems kind of absurd.