BuckeyeRowe

That's what I say. Alas, I am weary. I have fought this fight too many times. In the end some will say you can be gray, some not. I am not going to fight this one again, as it will change no ones mind.

Acutally yes, you can get alignment points at the Sunry trial. Really? What is neutrality? Neutrality isn't necessarily indecisiveness. There are several ways a "neutral" (on the Good-Evil axis) character might go, because of course that axis comes nowhere near to fully describing them. One might believe in order above all else (and thereby pick a path and single-mindedly force it to a conclusion, for the sake of ending the war). Another might truly not care, and decide on the flip of a coin (it could be argued such a character is actually "evil", but I would suggest not so long as they truly follow the randomness of their coin-flipping and believe in this philosophy). Yet another might believe in embracing change whenever it comes, whatever its form, and thereby favour the Sith in KOTOR1 (soon to jump ship, I'm sure), on that principle. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you join a side, whether by conviction or the toss of a coin, you are taking a side - thus, you are no longer neutral. Neutral must not be fighting for either side. Period. That's neutral. Which brings us to the "gray jedi" question. A gray Jedi cannot exist. Either he fights for the dark side, or he doesn't. "But what if he's neutral?", you ask. When it comes to Jedi, it's a little different. If a Jedi doesn't fight for the light or the dark, you are in effect dark as you don't fight the dark. (Have you ever heard of Sin by silence). Sure, you may not be as dark as Malak bombing Taris, but you are not being light and fighting the dark side.

Well, thanks for saving the rest of us.

Agreed. And if you wish to fight on this point (which has been discussed many times on this board), please read other threads on this topic first, then give your arguement.

Yeah, time hasn't helped him too much.

Many XBox players on these boards have said how disappointed they were in KOTOR II. Thus, many PC'ers have lost some of their enthusiasm for KOTOR II. Other, however, have refused to let these complaints of the XBox lessen their expectations. So how about you? Have the XBoxers rained on your parade?

Yeah your example is definitely Light Sider. Grey would be do nothing at all, and go about your business. Dark Side would be to either kill the thugs, then kill the woman and take her money, or have the thugs give you her money, then leave. Your example, the end result is that a woman was saved from thugs. - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think it is Light side at all. A person of the Light would have negotiated peacefully with Mind Tricks or Persuasion, but in my example you chose to unleash your anger and kill thugs, and then you give the woman her money back. Sure she ended up with the money, but I gave her a bad attitude and chose to negotiate like a HK protocol droid - which is not the way of the Light. Myself I'm naturally drawn to the Dark side, but I do not like the Sith teachings, much less the Jedi ones. I would still join the Jedi to build up my strength and then leave them and do what I want. If I were to train within the Sith, I would get killed for "failures". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good Point.

A good point. But it fails because if a Jedi ignores the women getting jumped to save the galaxy, then it is not Dark. But if a Jedi just ignores the women for no reason, it is dark.

I'm a PCer, so maybe after playing the game, I'll see things differently. But I don't think so...

Yes, but the Jedi made two choice. First, to save the women. Second, to enslave her. These were two seperate choices. And this is how some would say you can have a Gray Jedi. But I think that this Jedi would be Dark. Think when Vader was dying. He turned back to the light. Would we call him a Dark Jedi because he did so many things for evil. No, we call him a Light side Jedi because that is the choice he made, and it was the final choice he made before he died. If George Bush would decide to become a liberal, would we call him a moderate because he has been a conservative for so long? No, we would call him a liberal.

You're right, Reven would not learn the teachings of the Sith if the Jedi got involved (well, he may have anyway). But when the Jedi made the choice it was a light choice. And even afterword, it was a light choice. A man is about to get hit by a car. You push him out of the way. The man goes on to kill dozens as a serial killer. Was it evil to save the man's life?

It doesn't matter if the victim that you save becomes the next Sith Lord - saving the victim from the thugs was light side. The choice of nonchoice is in itself a choice. By choosing not to get involved, you make the choice to let evil prevail. And to let evil prevail is not Gray and certainly not Light, but Dark.

Being Dark or Light does not depend on whether you joined the Sith or the Jedi (although you would be expelled from the group if you did not act like them), but on how you act. It's like being a registered Democrat but always voting Republican. You say you're a Democrat, but you're a Conservative in the end. (Sorry if you don't live in the US or know US politics, but it's the best example I could come up with)

Yeah, exactly! There are so many variables involved, and it goes much deeper than what initially appears on the surface. A Grey Jedi might say to him/herself "Well, if I help this woman and save her from the Thugs, that would draw attention to myself, and right now, I'm trying to pretend I'm not a Jedi, in order to get more information from the locals" - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But that is being a smart Light Jedi. It may seem wrong, but it is for good. Being Light does not mean stopping all injustice and attackers. Remember in KOTOR when Bastila was explaining to Carth that the Jedi did not aid the Republic against the Mandalorian because they saw a greater evil? The Jedi were making a Dark choice, but making a choice for the greater good.

It was in Sienfeld... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never did watch that show...

Well, I wouldn't call them "evil", but I do think they are wrong. EDIT: I'm referring to the people in New York. Below I'm referring to a Jedi But there is something to be said for being "unavailable" - if you're on you're way to save the galaxy from a Sith attack, then it wouldn't be dark to leave the women. Still, it's wrong not to get involved if you can. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, what would a Grey Jedi do in this situation then? - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's the point, I don't think you can be a "Gray Jedi"

Yeah your example is definitely Light Sider. Grey would be do nothing at all, and go about your business. Dark Side would be to either kill the thugs, then kill the woman and take her money, or have the thugs give you her money, then leave. Your example, the end result is that a woman was saved from thugs. - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> See Bold ^ I disagree, that even "going about you bussiness" would be dark (although not so much as killing them all). If you have the ability to help this lady, and you don't, then I think it is wrong (especially since you're a jedi). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Interesting. But if you help the woman, that is a Light Side act. Refusing to help isn't necessarily evil. You could simply not have the time to get involved. Lets take real life for example. A woman in New York was yelling for help, as she had an attacker on her, trying to rob her of her purse. Many many people just stood around, looking on, nobody coming to her aid. Are all these people evil/darkside? - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I wouldn't call them "evil", but I do think they are wrong. EDIT: I'm referring to the people in New York. Below I'm referring to a Jedi But there is something to be said for being "unavailable" - if you're on you're way to save the galaxy from a Sith attack, then it wouldn't be dark to leave the women. Still, it's wrong not to get involved if you can.

Yeah your example is definitely Light Sider. Grey would be do nothing at all, and go about your business. Dark Side would be to either kill the thugs, then kill the woman and take her money, or have the thugs give you her money, then leave. Your example, the end result is that a woman was saved from thugs. - dr cloak <{POST_SNAPBACK}> See Bold ^ I disagree, that even "going about you bussiness" would be dark (although not so much as killing them all). If you have the ability to help this lady, and you don't, then I think it is wrong (especially since you're a jedi).

This would be lightside and having a mouth. But it really is the "nature of the force" to be dark or light. I don't think you can be Gray. Even Jolee, the greatest example of a gray character, had to make a choice eventually.

The problem with the "gray" idea (whichs comes up every couple weeks on these boards) is that many times (well, actually, most times), there can't be a gray option. You see a lady getting mugged on the street. You have two options - 1) You help - Light 2) You don't help - which is in itself Dark, as it's not Light The only way to be gray is to make some light choices and some dark choices. But in the end, you have to choose one or the other. If you don't help the Light, you are inherently helping the Dark (the "Sin by Silence" philosophy).

Well, the BCS took a shot yesterday. Never did like the BCS (as if you couldn't tell). We'll see what they do. I don't think they can just "go on" as if nothing has happend, or else they'll lose a lot of the little credability they have left. Really though, even if you agree with Auburn being left out, I don't see how you could pick Texas over Cal.

Well if you're the 24-1 team and you got upset, then you screwed up. You had the chance to win, but you blew. In this way sports is like anything else in life - sometimes you only get one shot to get it right. Shifting slightly, How 'bout them Dolphins? That put the Steelers in a real good positision for home field in the AFC Champoinship game.

A week ago, I would have agreed, but the Colts defense really impressed me last night. The Bills defense isn't the defense of the Raven, so Manning could score quite a bit against the Bills - and the Colts will be home.

That's why I love living in America - the land where you use the whole box of brownie mix.

Notre Dame was stupid for firing Ty Willingham - although I must admit, I am impressed by their new coach. The Bills have a shot - they are one of the hottest teams in football. Still, they would have to get by the AFC Kings - the Patriots, Steelers, and Colts.