Lancer

Oh and BTW, thought these needed replying too.. Ummm.. says who? There are many other games that consumers could have purchased on the Xbox. I didn't mean pump games senselessly without any regard to the size of the target market or financial resources. As the demand for console occidental RPGS, pump more and more games to keep up with the growing market. JRPGS pump tons a games out and their companies seem to be doing just fine.

This is another possibility if you are adamant about peripherals.

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence. You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier. Apparently we do. If you wish to take a narrow definition of an issue, then that is your perogative. If quality occidental RPGs do in fact require a specialized controller (even if it is just a keyboard), then they are already at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much of a technological challenge it is (it isn't one). If you don't see it as a barrier, then I think you are being way too optimistic. For instance, Ocarina of Time sold over almost 8 million units, while Majora's mask (requiring the memory expansion pak) failed to even sell half that many. Sure, you can look back and say "oh, it still sold over 3 million units" but relatively speaking, it was no where near the success of the original. The same can be said for Perfect Dark. Despite being superior in almost every way to GoldenEye, it was immediately handicapped by requiring the "cheap" expansion pak. Both of these franchises had gobs of fans, and I find a 50% drop off of sales to be a bit extreme. Furthermore, I was an active part of N64 community at the time, so I was there actually listening to people complain about the expansion pak requirements. You could see it in stores where people were buying the games, and as people got frustrated by buying a game without realizing that they needed EXTRA stuff to go with it. Working in retail, I had seen people change their mind when they found out the game required a separate expansion pak...often they'd go and pick a different game too. Sure it's anecdotal, but I would be surprised if my store was any more unusual than the majority of outlets that sell video games. Technological barriers for peripherals were never a real issue. It may also not be possible. Don't talk down to me. I've stated my desire to keep the PC RPG games alive, as they are my favourite games, and I've also supported the RPG mainstay's (like the Bioware's, Black Isle/Obsidians, etc) foray's into the console market to exploit its consumer base. Of course I see the importance of it becoming popular. It was never what we are discussing though. All you did here was state the obvious. No kidding it needs to become more popular. But ignoring issues such as whether or not people will require additional peripherals to take advantage of the game type is just walking around with blinders on. The "issues" with expanding the occidental RPGs onto consoles are whatever could hinder the expansion of the market. If you think additional (i.e. not included with every console) peripherals is not an issue, then you have tunnel vision and are focusing so much on one aspect that you'll end up ignoring the other aspects simply because "they should take care of themselves." And because of this, I really don't think you have any place criticizing people for their understanding of "producer-consumer relationships." I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already. Do we? Always seems to be plenty of demand for JRPGs. You have to make sure to not include your personal bias in such statements. I bet if the situation was reversed, you wouldn't be complaining about an overabundance of occidental RPGs. The market demand dictates how many we should have in development. For instance, you mentioned that Sega tried many occidental RPGs for its system. How come they quit making them? So lets keep on pumping. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess my point wasn't all that clear. The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition. If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then. Though I mentioned that if you start pumping them out, it becomes more competitive so people will stop making the games (these things ARE cyclical by the way), so your recommendation was to keep on pumping? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dude, There is no need to talk to me in a condescending tone. If you wish to get a civil response from me, I expect it from you in return. Anyhow, as I was reading your entire manifesto which you obviously put a lot of effort into writing, I could only smile because you are bringing in all this talk about peripherals left and right when I nowhere mentioned in any of my posts on this thread about advocating any sort of ancillary add-ons of any sort whatsoever. Believe me, I am fully aware of what happened to Sega Genesis, Sega CD and 32X and how you can confuse a fanbase with all sorts of random add-ons.. I don't need an entire lecture on the matter, thank you very much. I was actually thinking more along the lines of re-designing the base controller so that it would be more user-friendly for all sorts of games, including occidental RPGs. Maybe some sort of keyboard/controller or mouse/controller hybrid? I dunno, but it would sure make for an interesting design. No extra peripherals, add-ons or anything, just innovative design with what is already given. Also, as for why Sega doesn't make occidental RPGs anymore. That is exactly the issue... again. Again, it goes back to how much larger the JRPG market is and how there is just much more appeal to developers to go that route, financially. I do agree, that I am selfish in a way, (don't we all want our favorite things to be on top?) and I want MY favorite genre to flourish and if possible at the expense of JRPGs. I don't deny that at all. But then again, it is all about competition and survival of the fittest.

Yep, you are right Plano.. Again hardware considerations are not the issue.

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence. You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier. Much more significant is making the occidental RPG a large market on consoles. THAT will require much effort, time, and resources indeed. KotOR and Morrowind are a great start, but we have a looong ways to go before the console is a recognized platform of choice (like the PC) for playing occidental RPGs. I want occidental RPGs to start competing with JRPGS.. Long ways to go. Maybe you don't care or see the expediency of having occidental RPGs on consoles and are complacent with them mostly being on the PC. And I guess that is fine.. But for me, I think it is a critical step to ensure the survival of the genre. And I see consoles as onther medium into which the PC-style RPG can flourish into. I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already. So lets keep on pumping.

I always thought she was a girl!!! No, I dunno.. Can we be sure that Gabrielle is a gal?

No you didn't, but Nartwak did. And you agreed with him about it being an issue. So I spent pages of threads saying explaining how I think it isn't because the REAL issue is getting console players to play occidental RPGs. Once that's taken care of, the hardware will come naturally. Now that is the point right? And it comes down to developers breaking into the market by creating console RPGs that console gamers would play..That is their job and my hope is that they will be successful I never accused you. Re-read my statement, it was done in a general sense. Though you may understand the relastionships, it is possible others don't.

I never said this. I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable. I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then. What you are talking about here is more of a "preference" issue than an interface issue. We need to attack their psyche first, before worrying about the hardware. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Welcome to the Catch-22. If you don't have suitable input to play the games, no interest will grow. But if you don't have suitable interest, no one is going to make suitable input. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The point that some of you are not getting is the following: The interface issue is not really much of an issue. If there is interest in creating a full line-up of PC-style RPGs on consoles, they will address that problem. Those of you that bring in the i"interface issue" as if it were some sort of showstopper for occidental RPGs on consoles, don't really understand producer-consumer relationships. If there is sufficient demand for a product, that product will be made

Are ya serious? My dreams are shattered forever! When was this revelation? I always thought she (he) was a chic!

Um, yo udo know Darque = eldar........... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> huh? Yo no comprendo.

My perfect girl is Darque!!!!

Fable is not an action RPG. The point is, Roleplayer, that both Morrowind and KotOR (and even Fable) are far from being "mainstream" RPGs and yet they generated substantial revenue and outsold any of the action RPGs you mentioned. I don't think that creating "mainstream" RPGs (whatever that concept means) such as action RPGs is the answer in providing the financial resources to make PC RPGs. I believe that we should experiment with different types of RPGs, no doubt, but I don't think action RPGs or other "mainstream" RPGs are necessarily the answer.

That's what i thought but talk is cheap. It was *your* idea. You favored the concept so much it just seemed you had something in particular in mind. Apparently not, And how have console action RPGs been particularly successful thus far? Has there been any console action RPG that has out-sold KotOR?

In answer to my own posed question: Perhaps some sort of squad-based strategy-RPG hybrid might interest console gamers. Maybe something like this done correctly would generate sufficient revenue to allow creation of other types of occidental RPGs. I would certainly favor that over another trite action RPG.

Besides "action RPGs" (and big brand names like Star Wars), what other "mainstream" RPG genres would interest console aficionados to the point where enough funds would be generated from them alone to allow creation of profound RPGs and IPs?

I never said this. I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable. I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then. What you are talking about here is more of a "preference" issue than an interface issue. We need to attack their psyche first, before worrying about the hardware.

There are more than enough action RPGs. And more importantly if their purpose is to be successful on the market to generate enough funds for the creation of more "profound" RPGs, they are not doing a good job.

I wouldn't give you the pleasure. But you could try that on yourself. Now you do sound like you are whining. Keep it up, you are doing wonderful.

This may be so.. Whatever that revolution controller/keyboard or what not will be interesting indeed.

The feeling is mutual

You are reaching man. Like I said, I "doubt" you are saying "black music" for nothing other than in a pejorative/critical sense. You can cover your tracks all you want but I think it is obvious where you were going. I haven't heard you call heavy metal, "white music" to be fair... I wonder why.

Exactly, which is why credit should not be given to a broad "race" but to the involved parties regardless of race. I believe all the rap artists that contributed to the genre should be credited regardless of race. Eminem, included.

It makes me wonder why link music to race at all, if all we are talking about is music?

Except you are calling it "black music" not to credit them for it, but saying it in such a way that comes across more like.. "rap is crap!" "Why?" "Well, it is black music what do you expect?" EDIT: You have stated how much you hate rap in this thread and I doubt you coin the phrase to positively "credit" them for it. More like "blaming" that race for the perceived "low quality" of their music. Lastly, I am not white. And nor are you to be listening to that "white music" . There are other races besides whites and blacks that listen to rock and rap, you know. Oh and no musical style "belongs" to any one race. Music is to be cherished by whomever wishes to listen to it.

You may not have good taste in music , but I would concur with your great taste in women!