Ruminate

Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty. While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses. You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3 Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS. The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it) Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)

If Swift Strike's attack speed is actually recovery speed (i'm going to test this myself later today), then i'm at a loss on how you think the fighter's -20% bonus can achieve a faster recovery time in heavy armor over the monk's -25% bonus.

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3 Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS. The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Can't say these are necessarily sine-qua-non, but the abilities I would dearly miss if I played another class are Knock Down, Armored Grace, and the Specialization/Mastery chain. Sundering Blows is also pretty sweet (even though I still have to figure out what the icon is meant to represent.) Force of Anguish can knockdown more than twice per encounter. Swift Strikes gives 20% attack speed instead of only recovery. Turning Wheel can give up to 50% multiplicative burn damage as opposed to 25% additive weapon damage.

Before 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consisted of a fighter and a paladin. After 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consists of two paladins. Even if the fighter's Defender was buffed again, i'd still prefer two paladins for the new Immolation ability, post-buff double auras, and 4x Lay on Hands. (frees up the priest to cast other spells like Circle of Protection, which doesn't stack with Vigorous Defense, or knockdown groups of enemies for 10-20 seconds with a single Repulse Seal) Fighters need a niche. +2 engagements isn't enough of a niche.

Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter. Other classes suffer from action economy. Chanters before ramping up to an invocation have "realistic" usage of items and tanking ability. Additionally scroll use on a paladin with zealous focus can be a decent opener since the priest cast realization isnt fast enough to be gained for scroll casts. Priests have 20 base accuracy, so they're irrelevant. Monks have spare action economy at the start of a fight, during the time when using a scroll is most advantageous. They are most likely to max might and they start with 30 accuracy. I'm not saying the Priest, Chanter, or Paladin don't have other kinds of advantages, but anything outside of the "best" is irrelevant, no?

Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter.

DoT stacking or not stacking is irrelevant. You don't use DoTs for the sake of it being a DoT. You use DoTs because it deals damage. Damage removes the opposition. Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers will remove the opposition faster than a Chanter (and at a much earlier level than 9). Whether you believe it doesn't have an accuracy roll is irrelevant. It does have an accuracy roll. (and because it has an accuracy roll, giving them medium or large shields will also reduce its accuracy.) Yes, Chanter is one of the best solo classes. Solo plays into their niche: long encounters ....but utilizing their niche in a party means the party wasn't very strong to begin with. I'm not saying the Chanter is bad. That isn't my position. I'm just using the same logic some people use on other classes. If certain people, who use this kind of logic, think someone else using it is irrational or misrepresenting the topic at hand when someone else uses it, then.... (not saying you do, but there are certain people in this thread that can't see their own reflection in the mirror)

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage. Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support. I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun. My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring. From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage. A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW. From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage.

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing. A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura. Is the glass half full? Is the glass half empty? Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

Vile Loner's Lance +5 accuracy because its a 1h spear -5 all defense for 5s (modified by INT) when you hit the enemy Its cheap. Can be bought at the Salty Mast, Ondra's Gift.

I was going to mention the cipher with tactical meld. Seems to be on the same level (base 5 lower but +20 vs +15) Oh, right. Tactical Meld is a unique accuracy buff, too. This also mean ciphers blow away all the other casters in spell accuracy, too.... hmm...

I also prefer Sworn enemy over Reviving Exhortation and taking advantage of on-hit weapons. While active buffs do not stack with other active buffs that are mechanically similar, there is no other active accuracy buff that is mechanically similar to Sworn Enemy. This means they have the highest ceiling for melee accuracy out of all the other classes. (Reckless Assault does not stack with Devotions of the Faithful because they both grant melee accuracy, in case anyone was going to mention the rogue)

What equipment were you using? What equipment was dukefx using? What level were you? Was level was dukefx? How did you build your character? How did dukefx build his character? Too many knee-jerk reactions.

Given their dearth of active abilities, I'm not sure combining two of their primary actives and then reducing them to once per encounter (or twice with a talent) is a good idea. When the flames/hands are out, the paladin loses a lot of its flavor and even a large boost to attack will lose it's relevance, at later levels, when compared to abilities that can be used more frequently and/or against more targets. Paladins are in the same position as most other classes with level 1 per encounter abilities. When a fighter's knockdown or accuracy buff runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a rogue's blinding strike or crippling strike runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a priest's holy radiance runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor(for any battle that doesn't require spells anyways). When a ranger's marked prey or wounded shot runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. Anytime a class cannot utilize their active abilities for whatever reason, it loses its flavor. I'm not in favor of giving more attentive maintenance to a class that was built to be low maintenance. My suggestion was to make the class require a little more thought, especially at the start of the game. Using one ability at the expense of another requires thought. Using the exact same ability two times(or more) per encounter, regardless of the situation, requires going through the motions. I am in favor of giving people the choice to increase the attentive maintenance of a low maintenance class. Hence, why I suggested a new talent that does exactly that. But choosing to take it means doing so at the expense of a low maintenance talent. This requires additional thought on the part of the player.

Did you tell her that you won't harm Raedric? I told her I would kill Nedmar. You have to kill Nedmar and she has to be the one to open the passage.

Did you tell her that you won't harm Raedric?

Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1. Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.) Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots) Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter) Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent. Remove Intense Flames talent. Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter. This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1. You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).

Non-unique items are randomized. Loot is generated when you peek in a container. The looting seed used in all areas is changed after every game day. You can manipulate the game into coughing up a pair by knowing the location where it drops and resting 3-4x to change the seed. For example, there is a pair that can be found on a desk in Raedric's private chambers. It is connected to Osyra's room and you can freely rest there if you side with her. If you want an easy way to obtain the gloves, do the following: 1.) Save your game in Osyra's room. 2.) Use her shortcut to reach Raedric's private chambers. 3.) Loot the desk. 4.) If you find the Gloves of Manipulation, congrats. You can stop here. 5.) If you don't find the Gloves of Manipulation, reload your save. 6.) Talk to Osyra and rest until a day passes. 7.) Go back to step 1. To get a better understanding of how the seeding works, if you find the Gloves of Manipulation on Raedric's desk, you'll also find a Blunting Belt in the trapped chest by Raedric's bed 100% of the time. The seed used to spawn the gloves on his desk is the same seed used to spawn the belt in the trapped chest. If you loot the gloves, but don't want the belt, you can go back down to Osyra's room and rest a day to change the seed.

The base damage in an item description is misleading. The description is adding enchant modifiers to the base damage. The base damage that you see isn't the real base damage.

A 2H Sword vs 8 DR has 1.70 DPS. The Shades I believe have 16 DR, as do plate wearing paladins. Against 16 DR a 2H sword does 0.77 DPS. A level 3 Cipher has 31 accuracy. I'm not sure of the stats of POTD Shadows & Shades. You can't really prove a point using made up numbers. Can't take credit for this nor give any, yet... https://docs.google.com/a/lcmail.lcsc.edu/spreadsheets/d/1SHdaQ8yNSvJhxcqFeP9ykXdua_EsjSAb9ypzPA8Oink/edit#gid=1848365110 The damage mod being used is higher than you'll normally have at level 3, but if you include cipher talents 1.44 isn't unreasonable, and it's significantly more dps than 1.7 against 8 DR. Start at 20 might and you have +30% Soul Whip adds another +20% A fine estoc adds another 15% 65% total damage mod. This assumes there are no grazes are misses, but a blunderbuss with draining whip is going to be even worse against 75 deflection enemies (PotD shadows) at level 3. I also find it strange that the other guy brought up shadows. Shadows don't care if you're melee or ranged. They'll get up in your face either way. Bringing up shadows is a detriment to their argument about survivability.

Wouldn't focus regeneration be an even bigger problem for non-melee ciphers at that level? I mean, is there a sure-fire way to find a blunderbuss at level 3? You have a small chance of obtaining a blunderbuss from a crate next to bandits in Black Meadows, but thats not gauranteed. You also need to pick up Draining Talent at level 2 and suffer the -10 accuracy penalty of the blunderbuss. There is a sure-fire way to obtain a fine estoc... just pick up Kana Rua. The southwest portion of Magran's Fork has a dead body that carries either a fine pollaxe or fine great sword. You don't need to fight any enemies to get to it either. All of them offer a 14 accuracy advantage over the non-guaranteed blunderbuss. You can also pick up a weapon focus at level 2 instead of Draining Whip for a huge 20 accuracy advantage. Even if Mental Binding misses, you'll still hit more often than the blunderbuss. You only need to deal 60 damage to generate 15 focus. 60 damage over the course of 14 seconds is ~4.3 DPS. Are you telling me you can't deal 4.3 DPS with a fine 2-handed weapon at level 3?

Trying to find a way to achieve 100% crits with non-monk fists was pretty time consuming. Anyways, here are the logs: ^ There are 6 critical interrupts with fists inbetween each bear hit. ^ There are 5-6 non-interrupted hits with fists inbetween each bear hit. Since fists seem to have worse action delay than other fast weapons, its difficult to say whether or not crits increase the action delay by 50%. ...but atleast we know fists are horrible for interrupts.

How can you extrapolate that i will die in scenario 2 when I already gave you a scenario above where I killed the bear with 19 might and 0 interrupts? You're not making any sense. Because you moved the goalpost of your own experiment. You changed all of your stats in between rounds, therefore you aren't testing the effectiveness of one thing. It's called putting your thumb on the scale. You do realize there is a 97 point stat difference between 3 might, 19 dex, 18 con, 100 perception, and 100 resolve vs. 3 might, 19 dex, 18 con, 3 perception, and 100 resolve, right? You do realize that letting a fight run its course with those stats is meaningless, right?