KDubya

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be. I'm confused. Spellcasters start with a penalty to their deflection, which isn't overcome even by maxing out Resolve. How will they be better tanks in the new system? Only barbarians have lower base deflection, and only Fighters have higher. Everyone else starts with 20 so a Paladin = Wizard = Rogue A damage dealing melee will max out Strength while a Spell nuker can dump strength and place those points in Constitution so that their Fortitude does not suffer. The Damage dealing nuker can then max Resolve. These two actions: trading Strength for Con and maxing Resolve, will give Damage dealing nukers high health and better deflection and to go along with their better healing.

holy **** this is ridiculously fun and holds up on veteran difficulty too. Time to try PoTD i guess? You need to remember though that Sabres and all the other heavy hitting one handers except spears are set to fast attack speed instead of slow. Should be 3 second recovery not one second. When that gets fixed your dps will drop by half. To use now without broken weapons you'd need to use fast attack speed weapons like daggers and clubs or use spears. Still makes for the strongest melee build in my opinion and the winner of my Chainsaw title.

disagree. the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended. stat choices should be painful. the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost. so, good on being boned. however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection. also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids. paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection. the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts. can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels. huzzah. HA! Good Fun! Keeping the current system, though flawed, still has less problems with it than the new proposed system. They 'solved' one problem by adding ten other problems. Regarding you support Paladin; in the current system what was the problem? You wanted Might, Intellect and Resolve. That got you tanky, good healing and good melee damage. New system you could go the same route with Strength, Intellect and Resolve and get the same things. Or you could leave Strength at base or lower and save those points for pumping something else. Seems like the new system just rewards you for min-maxing more which seems contrary to design goals. For every example like your Support Paladin that prospers under the new system there are lots of examples of classes that get gutted like Ciphers or any hybrid weapon user who has heals or spells. Again why make the change if it just makes for a different problem while leaving the original problem untouched?

Base deflection is the same for all except barbarians get -5 and Fighters get +5. Health per level up is higher for Barbarians but i don't know the actual numbers. But a 2 Might/18 Con Orlan nuker will have a +40% boost to Con which will be more than a base con melee guy.

What if you adjusted the elemental armor values for all armors and for the creatures? In PoE it made sense to have armor affect everything as it was just a DR to be overcome with damage, Now that is not the case. Why does wearing metal armor help at all against lightning damage? Or protect against fire as well as it does against a sword which is what it was designed to work against? If they can go through and re-adjust the elemental armor values that'll help with the penetration issues. Maybe add elemental penetration passives to casters as abilities or as part of certain Grimoires? EDIT ADD - you could have metal armor work better against weapons but not as well against spells, while light armors (non-metallic) like hide could be better against elemental damage and worse against weapons.

HA! Good Fun! ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned. What do you mean that the basement is five for stat reduction? I just rolled up an Orlan Wizard in the Beta with a 2 Might.

The current system has a limited use for Resolve. Fact and in another long thread many came up with having Resolve affect the duration of afflictions, higher lets you shrug them off, lower makes you suffer longer. It might not have been a great reason to pump it but it'd punish you for dumping it. The current system had you pumping Might for more damage/healing from all sources. Easy to understand and easy to build for. Your Wizard who hurls more powerful fireballs also does better with a wand, or a summoned weapon or whatever. Your Cipher who pumps Might does more damage with weapons and spells. Might was useful to most every build but still needed to be balanced with your other stat choices. A very elegant system and a much appreciated improvement on the old DnD system. So to address the issue of Resolve not being that useful the Devs decide to split spell casting from Might and add it to Resolve. In the words of Deadpool "What the actual #@&%!!" Now instead of having one marginally useful stat you have two. Classes who don't cast can dump one and classes that don't weapon attack can dump the other. Classes that do both take it in the shorts. But since resolve adds to deflection, healing and spell damage the bonus/malus of increasing/decreasing it is much more than the same as Strength since it only affects weapon damage. Hopefully in the following Beta update it can be rolled back or something based on our play testing.

An Orlan Wizard who drops Strength to 2 is not going to care about weapon damage so minimum levels for using bigger weapons is meaningless. The weapon choice for the Orlan Wizard is the wand due to its weapon modal of an accuracy debuff to the enemy at the cost of doing damage. This basically becomes free because the difference from doing -24%damage and -74% damage is meaningless when you were not trying for damage at all. To further the Tank-Mage you'd want to keep Fortitude neutral so as you drop Strength add it to Constitution. Your Orlan with 2 strength will also have 18 Constitution for a massive +40% health boost. This is all accomplished with a 1:1 shift, you still have the rest of your stat points to spend. Your Orlan gets a resolve bonus as well as starting culture so you can pump up to 20 at the cost of 8 of your 18 'at large' stat points. You can make two of your remaining stats a 15 so two of .either dexterity, perception or Intellect can be at 15 with one at 10. On the plus side Barbarian Rage can be explained as being caused by being easily scared as they will probably dump Resolve to the Timid level.

To the extent that drawbacks are class-specific, that's an easy fix. Base values of class abilities can be tuned. Wizards too tanky? Lower the class's base Deflection. Cipher damage spells less effective because players invest in STR over RES? Make the base damage for those spells 5% higher. Etc. All classes, except Barbarian for some reason, have the same base deflection. If you start jacking around those where do you stop? Only Wizards take the deflection penalty or Priests as well? Better to move deflection to dexterity if you must add spell damage to Resolve. If you crank up Cipher damage spells what happens with someone who does get a lot of points into Resolve? Again if the problem was people dumping Resolve the proposed solution does not fix this and in fact just makes it optimal to dump Strength for some classes as well as making hybrid classes gimped. ​Most classes who were inclined to dump Resolve while adding it to Intellect will still do so, Pure casters can now dump Strength and add to Constitution to keep the same Fortitude and gain a massive amount of health which will then be maintained by their strong heals with extra deflection just gravy. Hybrid classes who need both have real difficulties now.

I for one welcome our new Tank-Mage Overlords! (sarcasm) I assume that healing from Athletics is also tied to Resolve so no more great healing for the melee guys. Classes who can dump Strength Wizards who cast to deal damage ​​Priests who heal or cast for damage Druids who heal and cast for damage Classes who can dump Resolve Anyone who doesn't heal, cast offensive spells or need deflection muchMonks - no heal, no casts and gain wounds from taking damage Bleak Walker Paladins - just avoid Lay on Hands even more than you did before Barbarians - if you avoid their heal they don't lose out on anything Chanter - if you skip the damage chants like Dragon Thrashed and stick to the CC style invocations, so only use a summon or the paralyze (boring...) Ranger - just skip healing the pet Rogues - no heal and no casting Soul Blade multi-classes that never use Cipher damage spells (doable but much more boring) Classes that need both Strength and Resolve ​ Any sort of hybrid, you know the fun classesChanters who want to make use of their damage invocations and be useful in melee (huge nerf) Ciphers - need damage for focus and damage spells are a big part of their repertoire (huge nerf) Fighters - their constant recovery will need Resolve to not be useless and will never get pumped up Druids who wanted to cast and shapeshift, you know like every Druid there is. (huge nerf) Paladins who want to heal Priests who wanted to fight with melee (goodbye Priest of Berath) Looking at the list this doesn't change the usefulness of dumping Resolve, it just makes dumping Strength a no brainer for pure casters. Your melee monsters like Barbarians and Monks will still drop Resolve, your casters will now drop Strength, hybrid classes will be nerfed hard and Ciphers will re-roll into something else. I don't see how this is good at any level.

I for one welcome our new tank-mage overlords Here you go: Orlan from Aedyr Might 2 Con 10 Dex 10 Per 18 Int 18 Res 20 Use a wand and shield with the wand modal causing -10 accuracy to enemy for -50% damage. You cast spells like a champ and have great deflection due to max Resolve and a shield. If you get weapon and shield style that makes it even better. For more balanced stats Might 2 -add the dropped ones to con at 1:1 Con 18 Dex 10 Per 13 Int 15 Res 20 This guy in addition to having great deflection will have more health than most melee guys

I agree on the Paladin power. They have great defense, healing, auras and the upgraded sworn enemy adds +40% damage. +15 accuracy and gets one of the two zeal points back when killed (should be both). Combine Paladin with any of the ones on your list and you get a better guy. They are quickly becoming my go to class to use as a base. A team of five paladin/somethings will facestomp PotD

Probably posting it on the SomethingAwfulforums

I like the suggestion of adding affliction duration to Resolve in addition to keeping the deflection. Leave it at base and get no malus to anything Drop to 5 and suffer a minor -5 deflection and a harsher +15% or +25% duration on afflictions suffered Buff to 15 and gain a minor +5 deflection and a quite useful -15% or -25% duration on afflictions suffered You can still dump it but there is a real cost involved now and pumping it adds a good benefit to further a tanky type build.

My contention on the superiority of fast weapons in Deadfire is based on a few assumption: That fast weapons currently have their proper speeds 0.5 attack and 1.0 recovery That two handed weapons have their proper speeds of 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery That spears are the only heavy one handers that have the proper speed of 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery (same as the two handed, same as in PoE) That the other heavy one handers are mistakenly coded to have fast speed recovery at 0.7 attack and 1.0 recovery This would then lead to an assumption that heavy one handers will be at 0.7 attack and 3.0 sec recovery. Consider a dual wielder in plate with base dex: Two fast weapons like clubs have 0.5 attack and 1.5 recovery for 11-15 (13 average) a dps of 6.5 Two heavy one handers spears have 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery for 14-19 (16.5 average), a dps of 4.5 Based on these observations and predictions/assumptions I think that fast speed weapons dual wielded will out perform hard hitting but slower weapons as long as both can penetrate the armor. Since armor penetration is not affected by damage the slower, harder hitting weapons have no advantage.

output_log.ziperror.zip Here are the other files. Thanks for the tip on zipping them

I'd think about dropping Knockdown and replace with Force of Anguish. Knockdown uses your Fighter resource which can be saved for something better Force of Anguish uses wounds which will drop your total damage output but are limitless and I have a feeling that gaining wounds for this guy is not going to be a problem I'd also go with Gromnir's suggestion for Clarity of Agony, its just so useful The cleaving stance might be more useful as +5% action speed per nearby enemy is probably more useful than accuracy (which is good) that becomes deflection (not so helpful) as you get Bloodied which might be a real common occurrence. I do worry for the health of your team mates when you get charmed though

But since FoD is a full attack dual wielding a rapier and a dagger will do more damage than using the Arquebus, especially if you have the lingering flames. Dual wielding fast weapons in plate is somewhere around 1.3 seconds for attack and recovery with a 15 dexterity while that Arquebus is at 6.6 seconds. The old armor system of damage reduction needed big hitters to overcome damage while small fast weapons did the minimum since they hit less than the DR. Now if you get past the armor you do full damage. Even plain stillettos with their modal will punch through 9 armor. Light fast weapons dual wielded are going to be the killing machines in Deadfire instead of Sabres or Great Swords. Leaving slow weapons as being better with full and primary attacks gives them a niche.

Absolutely nothing! Seriously what is the point of the Resolve stat now? Before when it included Concentration you'd worry about dumping it and getting interrupted all the time but that is now a separate ability granted by some spells. As most every class benefits from Intellect it is quite easy to drop 1:1 and keep the same Will defense while gaining a large boost to duration and area. Adjusting by five points has a piddly effect of -5 deflection. Sure for roleplaying reasons you might not want everyone to be Timid but from a power gamer's view it looks to be the go to strat.

If it's such a non-issue then why oppose it on the grounds of balance/power creep? Make it cost an ability point, just don't give it for basically nothing by adding it to the Weapon Proficiency page. If you gave everyone access to Weapon Focus at the cost of an ability point just about everyone will take it and everything is now easier to hit unless they rebalance enemies.

Re-doing the build based on new Might info. The Witch Chainsaw Berserker/Soul Blade Race - Human - you will be getting damaged so getting boosts at low health sounds good Might 20 - big damage that is multiplicative Con 15 - I like a large health pool Dex 10 - more would be nice for casting Perception 10 - need for casting Intellect 18 - duration of frenzy and for carnage Resolve 5 - -5 deflection, who cares For Armor your going to want light like Hide if you want to cast any spells. With Dual wielding heavy armor is not that bad for attack speed but its hell on casting. Your Frenzy bumps armor by 4 so Hide become Plate. Downside bad deflection To overcome the downside with the Witch I came up with two superb contenders - The Inquisitor Gldpact/Soul Blade and the Fanatic Bleak Walker/Berserker. The Inquisitor Chainsaw Race - Coastal Aumaua or Dwarf Might 21 multiplicative damage add that gets to multiply biting whip and sworn enemy Con 15 - I like a big health pool Dex 10 Perception 10 - need for casting Intellect 17 - for longer buffs and healing Resolve 5 - -5 deflection who cares With Deep Faith and Faith and Conviction you'll have like 30+ more deflection than the Witch. By using Gilded Enmity you get +4 armor, add in Inspired Defense for another +2 and you can hang with the light armor you'll need to be able to get any spell casts off in a reasonable speed. Use you Sworn Enemy for +15 accuracy and +20% damage on top of soul whip and you beat things down quickly, dropping a Soul Annihilation as desired for extra massive raw damage. Finally the Fanatic Race - Dwarf or Coastal Aumaua Might 21 multiplicative Con 15 life is good Dex 15 - faster attacks Perception 5 - all your attacks are with weapons that will benefit from your Weapon Focus Intellect 17 - for the durations and the AoE on Carnage Res 5 again a measly loss of one deflection per dropped point This guy is the biggest monster of them all. Paladin adds so much defensive power its not funny. Put this guy in Plate and he still attacks every 1.3 seconds with his fast speed weapons which goes to 0.9 seconds with Frenzy and Bloodlust. Even raged his deflection is pretty good and he has +5 to his armor from thick skinned and rage. He even gets auras. His accuracy aura stacks with his weapon focus but the armor boost aura gets overwritten by his Frenzy with Hardy. I'm thinking he needs to be called the Carbide Chainsaw or maybe Buzz Saw?

Cipher powers like Mind Blades and Ignition also do not benefit.

To expand on armor buffs not stacking: Gilded Enmity overwrites the +4 armor from Berserker Frenzy which adds 'Hardy' Gilded Enmity does stack with the +2 armor from Inspired defenses though

It is hard to judge until we see the full ability tree and see how many fighter resources we have. Right now the disciplined strikes is the best by far ability and a multiclass can get that with just a one point investment. Add in a weapon style and a stance and your three ability investment makes any sort of melee guy better. Not more exciting like a barbarian or Monk would or add spells like a wizard or cipher but just makes for a better melee combatant due to better accuracy, grazes, and stances/styles. If high level Fighters had some sort of whirlwind power like early versions of Diablo 2 there be less reason to multiclass them. The beta starts at level six and you'll be seven for the rest. After all content you get to eight but all is over by then. In these early levels multiclassing is just much stronger than a single class. Plus having a durable tough guy who takes little to no micro is not a bad thing when you have a party to manage.

Anything that enhances melee ability will mesh well with a monk. Go Helwalker with ones like Barbarian that will take a lot of damage and Shattered Pillar for ones with Paladin where your deflection will be high enough to not get hit much. Cipher Soul Blade get you the big damage boost from biting whip. Barbarian Berserkers give lots of benefits and clarity of agony clears the confusion. Shattered Pillar Goldpact paladins will excel at sworn enemy dropping one foe at a time while having +4 armor, +20% damage and +15 accuracy. Once dead you get the zeal back to do it again. Plus Paladins have great defenses, going for Dance of Death will be good due to not being hit much, but I'm assuming that the +12 accuracy from Dance of Death and +15 from Sworn Enemy overwrite each other so choose something other than Goldpact for a Dance of Death user. Devoted/Shattered Pillar or Helwalker will do great with their chosen weapon Shattered Pillar/Wizard will have massive defenses from the big defense buffs that wizards get. Go with a Ogre for extra style