Tigranes

Same logic applies. When the story / game is adapted onto the coded realms by the devs, they should initially endeavour to achieve this (e.g. villains that escape and whatnot) through 'orthodox' means, that is, without artificial empowerment or invulnerability. When through Q&A they find this to be too risky (e.g. possibility of killing Sion on Korriban), artifical stopgaps should be placed, but ones that are the least immersion-breaking. As examples, I would prefer creatures that are *extremely* powerful as opposed to ones that cannot be killed: if this is done consistently enough (see Werewolf) players will learn to expect that the game wants THEM to decide when to give up and when to keep trying. Right now the trend in CRPGs is that players always walk down the obvious path, the guided path, and only think 'outside the box' when they are steered to. Now that coding is becoming more and more capable of multiple approaches and more 'open' situations, the devs should also strive to make players become used to it, and EXPECT it - not to be told "this creature is too powerful", but for themselves to think "hey, this guy is way too powerful, but surely I can reach a compromise with him or run away?"

I would much prefer that a story is built and made plausible / functional WITHOUT special treatment of NPCs: however, when faced with a situation where the NPC must be given such, or the story / experience compromised, I would opt for a discreet empowerment of the said NPC. It's very easy to break immersion, this. So in Hades' story, I would have had to try and find a good way to make him "not die" - something that doesnt sound too much like deus ex machina.

So....

HH, no. PS:T had lots of items that you needed to keep a hold of. Bronze Sphere (even if most people had no idea you could do anything with it), Modron Cube, most of the itmes from the devil shop in the Lower Ward, and other memorabilia. The list isn't so long because it is not a long game. Ultima also has items, so I don't even know where you are coming from.

Sion wasn't invincible, you hurt him then he escaped. Or do I remember wrong? You could actually do damage to him I think, and have a 'normal' battle till he ran away.

You can't.

Nope. Possibly the item-possession trigger was utilised a bit less, but it was certainly prevalent. You were usually given good clues about quest items, but this was sometimes the reason people would get stuck with no way forward in older RPGs. (I mean pre-BG.)

Amazing, he's somehow made being an introvert sound like being gay in the 40's. o.O

You're right, but at the same time, one could consider the enemy as a challenge and attempt to beat it. A player would only be at fault if he NEVER tried the above option and just kept fighting it 20,30 times. The problem was that many RPGs (esp. JRPGs) have enemies you cannot initially harm, or are seemingly immune to many normal attacks - but are eventually defeatable, whether through regular tactical means or more scripted actions. At least Troika can get credit for not holding your hand through it such as "TIP: WHY DONT YOU TRY THE DOOR?"

DR, I fail to see why you would return to the thread again and again to express your short derisions of the practice again and again. A 'proper' speed run is done without cheating and often creates ingenious ways to achieve its aim, which is then intended for short amusements, not diehard competitions, and you definitely need to have played the game 'properly' to do it. So if you don't like it, I believe there's a certain thread about Ferret that you're currently engaged in. That said, I'd have been interested to see some more Sonic speed runs... I played them so much as a kid. If there was ANY game designed to be played at breakneck speed, its that. I would NEVER stop running.

I really don't think we'll get anything since SEGA one isnt' PNJ. Obsidian doesn't have enough people to have 1 game in crunch time, another in preproduction/production then one more ready for E3... Unless PNJ had been demoted months ago for this.

Ah, but do you use lubricant?

And that's a fine hook from mkreku on the mystical volo! Seems to me that Volo probably played it after the patch/fix was released and never noticed. Although I'd expect him of all people to have an idea of the furores that erupt at Bio-land.

It's standard industry practice now to give estimates, so a lack of that information might put people off. As well as publishers/etc. Besides, reviewers will soon get to tagging them on anyway.

Well, it can be a point for both ways. I like to finish things in one sitting to receive the work as a whole, but when faced with epics like LOTR (the book) or BG2, I just play/read as much as I can (at the expense of sleep). I'd love all games and books I like to be that long or longer, but I recognise that most people I know can't stand obsessing about one thing/work for as long as I do. So yeah, personally, longer the better, because I'd rather play and play a good OC to death and a few well-made mods than have to play a couple of hours then scourge the net through trial-and-error for another one worth the salt.

(10*30) < (30*30) Most NWN mods lacked polish, and some lacked, well, quality - generally I enjoyed playing, but just like the internet / digital technology, the easier it is to create something, the more drivel you are going to get from an amateur community. NWVault doesn't really help either, especially if your tastes aren't in line with the mass NWN fandom. I also don't like the idea of playing for a few hours then waiting for months for the next part of the story, and I envision many feel the same - those who like to read books in one sitting.

Probably the best outcome the fans could have hoped for once he had left. Congratulations to Ferret.

Yeah, Hitler's a real cutie, too.

Continuity, thankfully, is different from consistency.

There's usually more lameness / meta involved in doing this with CRPGs, but sometimes stuff is really ingenious. But then, some people won't care about that, and that's too bad. Those recordsetters def. don't think it's the way to play games usually.

I did Pale Pass.. I ignored those chests though. I was actually really excited when I got the initial stuff, because I am playing without Compass markers and thought I'd have to find the Dragonclaw Rock or whatever myself through exploring. Of course, then I found out that the "landmark" is actually really tiny and impossible to find unless you talk to the Countess again for a map marker. Anyway, I was level 24 when I did it and by then I knew nothing from chests is really worth anything.

Well, if you're making the case that the game as a whole would have been more enjoyable were they shorter, I agree. I thought we weren't dealing with the issue of production and quality/length slider - at least, I wasn't, sorry for the confusion. Pretty much my point is based on the assumption of a static quality value, then regarding the question - do people like that game short so they can finish it, something that Kaftan regards as a myth? I say I agree, length doesn't hurt CRPGs at least.

That's because you didn't like the game, in which case: Longer game = more of the crap= more crap for your money. And in THAT case, you wouldn't like it if it was short or long, because it's crap. Length becomes irrelevant I think, people don't blame companies for their own insistence at completing games they don't enjoy.

Perhaps my analysis differs because I did not like JE very much, but here's my take: JE was a fairly 'good' game as in above mediocre, but without that spark of excellence. As such, I felt that its length was appropriate - any shorter and it would not have felt like a campaign / journey / progress at all, any longer and it would have been exposed of its shallowness (esp. combat, which *was* good, but failed to develop well). But then, if I loved JE I guess I would think differently. Anyway, times: -> JE: 12-15 hours, I remember because I did it in one sitting. I have high standards for VO and didn't feel the need to listen to JE's, which was mostly mediocre: and I'm a fast reader. That will have cut at least an hour or two off the final time, I think. I reloaded a few times after some early fights, but after that it was easy, and I didn't get stuck much. No walkthroughs, and I did do some sidequests, and make char. dialogues. -> KOTOR2: ~30 hours. I pretty much did *everything*, but I liked the game a lot. I believe I milked every single piece of dialogue possible from companions, as well. Not many reloads at all with super-easy combat, of course. No walkthroughs. Again, I don't wait for VOs when I finish reading. The thing with KOTOR2 is that when you play it, you are surprised by just how *tiny* some of the planets are (Korriban is just two dungeons, for example) but when you are just thinking about its length on the fly you think "X Planets". Malakor was short too, unless you had the Remote kill every monster in its path or something. Still, if NWN2 is around that long, I will be satisfied, if not ecstatic. -> Just for some perspective: 60 hours to finish +100 quests, 3 guilds, MQ, many random dungeons in Oblivion: 20-30 hours for PS:T, to do pretty much everything.

Hi guys, I'm back. Pretty much I was in a church camp this weekend, so def. couldn't make it. What time did you guys meet in for this one? I'm fine with any time except when I am in class or church, etc. (That means 2,3,4am is okay too.) Eldar's seen my charsheet, so I'll show up the next few times and just get into things. Read the transcript, I think that on the roleplay side I can definitely keep up with things, even if I have to emasculate Errol before the season is out. Also, maybe we can have a separate thread for characters? It was quite confusing for what race/class is each person, and relating the names of players to the characters. Maybe OpenRPG lets you do that anyway. I have it already, btw.