julianw

I miss my TV.

I will praise your effort for showing interest in studying the Qu'ran though. It shows that you won't shun away from differing opinions and beliefs to those that you already established. Quite a just man you are already. I will say that Islam would not be if not for Judaism and Christianity. Also Islam spread to different regions and people from Christianity. I am more inclined for them to reach absolute peace between each other rather than for one to devour another.

But Muhammad was not well versed in poetry. He was an illiterate man. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but you don't have to be well-versed in poetry to create or speak it. Arabic culture tends to be quite poetic, I'm inclined to believe he was exposed to poetry in his lifetime. But as I said, you don't really have to be well-versed in poetry to create it. And just to clarify something, evidence shows that Muhammad most likely did not write the Quran, in fact it is almost a certainty. Rather it was his scribes and followers who copied his words down as he spoke. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought I PMed you about this already, didn't I? Yes, the scribes recorded his writings. Sometimes, he could speak through day and night as the scribes took turns in recording. I became more than a little suspicious that the work of Qu'ran was divinely inspired since a man could have spoken in such logic and loftiness at the same time. Muhammad was not an educated man. If he was to accumulate knowledge by the means availabe at the time, it is nearly impossible for him to have 'spoken' the Qu'ran. p.s. I tried my best. Wished you were here though so Christianity could be much better represented.

After some much needed sleep, I am willing to give this discussion another go now; that is if people are still interested of course. But Muhammad was not well versed in poetry. He was an illiterate man. Maybe they are doing charity for the wrong reasons or maybe they are not. You and I do not have the power to judge men's hearts. But surely it is better to feed a starving man than to keep him starving, no? I don't quite understand the part of 'for every positive there is a negative'. When you plant crops on farmlands, weeds grew along side them. You cannot remove the farm because there would be no harvest, but do you blame the weeds on those who planted the seeds for the crops? Nope, i still don't understand. I didn't kill Jesus, why am i sharing part of the blame for something i didn't do? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well. I did explain already that I was speaking 'we' as humans as one. I said nothing about whose fault it was, so please don't be offended. What why would an aethiest dive on a grenade to save a friend ? Since it's not something I'd be inclined to do, not something I can answer. But it does happen so self sacrfice is not confined only to people who believe in god. I know many aethiests who are still humanitarians. Although I wouldnt say I was one since I tend to stick all life on the same shelf. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed, latest scientific investigations have proven that bacteria are capable of self-sacrifice ... are they religious? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But do they do it out of conscience and love for others? If you can find a better phrase to describe humans' innate need to give their lives meaning other than being religious or being in a state of love, that will work as well.

Why not ? If anything has changed society to that which we live in today it's that people have focused less on religion and more on science. People got along (or didnt) prior to any of those people even existing. Their existence really didnt change anything fundamental. People still kill each other, people still starve. Religions existed before them, new religions sprang up after them (see scientology). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why not? Well. First, it is illogical. The Bible is not Christ's direct words but Muhammad did write the Qu'ran and it reads like poetry. Now Muhammad himself never had any education and was a warrior for his whole life. I doubt he can dream up poetry out of the blue. I am not familiar with the early struggles of Christianity but I am sure Mothman could give you tons of examples of how the early Christians suffered and labored to spread the faith and taught people to love. As for Islam, Muhammad civilized an entire region. Previously barbaric people in a few decades turned into an advanced nation. Even today, their influence lives on. Islamic law requires a percentage of the income be donated to charity. I have seen my Muslim friend who's but a poor student with little income, yet giving out charities on many occasions. If you think relgions should have done more good, I can't say I disagree with you. But let me ask you this then: how much is enough? Good and evil are relative. You cannot extinguish all evil in a free world, so how shall you judge the progess of mankind then? Religions have helped us understand the purpose of life, strengthened the bond of familes and nations. Those seem a great deal to me already.

Okay. Let's be logical here. I could study for my whole life with this vast amount of knowledge that's easily available today and remain the chump I am but Christ died at 33 and was poor to boot. Muhammad was chased like a rat across the desert and battled his whole life. Buddha was a pampered rich boy who knew little of the suffering of the poor. Let's not credit the Bible, the Qu'ran and the number of Buddhist texts which are all beautifully written and contain many truth to life to hallucinations now.

There is one problem with the two choices you offered though. Christ, Buddha and Muhammad did make those claims that they are at one with God. So either they are the biggest liars that probably deserved death or their claims are true. And the basis for interpretation is rationality; and it's more dangerous when people decide that the religion is based on blind faith but not open interpretation.

mkreku: Hates Model because their all looks and no personality and Internet Girls for being all personality and no looks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So where does that leave you? Looks and personality?

Yes but it can equally inspire acts of hatred and intollerance. Okay. Now we have faith could guide our actions beyond logic established. We do, right? So why are there prophets and religious scriptures then? I believe they could help us direct our devotions to the right causes. I am against forcing any belief on any one but even you can't deny that the influence of all the religions combined have reached pretty much every corner of this earth. Studying the major ones, they all seem pretty sensible to me, preaching peace and love. Now when devotion leads to hatred or intolerence, how could they be the fruits of the religions themselves when the religions are against hatred or intolerence? p.s. The Crucifixion has little significance for me. What's important for me is that Christ devoted his life till death to teach the people. How could an act of blood sacrifice be more important than a sacrifice of a whole life?

'we' ? I didn't kill anybody and what's more, i don't stink either... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was speaking 'we' as humans collectively as one group. Read Hades's sig. You might understand why I talked with him in that way.

In prints. The post directly above my last one.

Not all acts of goodness are attributed to religion but religion can inspire acts of goodness. Giving up your life for another is not suicide. Christ did it himself. I would say Gandhi did it too. It's an act of devotion. Such devotion does not come from logic but strong faith. If you don't want to call it religious then let's use another phase: a state of love.

What why would an aethiest dive on a grenade to save a friend ? Since it's not something I'd be inclined to do, not something I can answer. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I doubt they have a definite answer about the reasons for their noble actions either. Hence making my point. They do not believe in God but obviously they believe in something so that they decided that their life's purpose is to serve that goal of saving a friend or even a stranger's life. Do you still insist that they are not religious? I mean you can't get any more religious than having such strong faith that you willingly give up your life.

Plenty of people who don't believe are not relgious or believe in god are nobel. Aethiests have thrown themselves on grenades to save friends just the same. Actually I'd be much more inclined to believe an aethiests motive as pure since they have no reason to be scoring points like some christians do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So tell me why would he/she do that?

Why am I defending Christianity when I am not even a Christian? Maybe I should jump on the wagon and start talking about how the Crusaders are the most disgusting scums this Earth has ever witnessed or how those priests could preach about God and then have sex with little boys in their dark chambers. Or how about those good European Christians who came to Beijing on their battleships, raped our women and burned the city to the ground? Should I hold a grudge against Christ because they were Christians or any other time a crime is committed in the name of Christ? Remember Christ is not the source of those evils. We all have free will. If you read the Bible and see it fit to kill Native Americans or raise a war against another nation, perhaps you missed a few lines in the Ten Commandments. And ShadowPaladin - I am sure there are plenty of religious people who are also immoral. But how could you ever be capable of noble acts like self-sacrifice without being religious (again it doesn't mean you have to believe in God)?

Finally, some love for the Asian ladies...

If you say Moses and Jesus's teachings did not strengthen our morals, you are lying.

Then you couldn't take the credit for lives saved in the name of Christianity either. Just think what a ugly world we will be living in, if Moses and Jesus never taught anything about loving our neighbors and forgiving our debtors. We'd already teared each other part.

Well, Jesus didn't abandon us even though we stinks and even killed him. Trust me, the world will be much grimmer if he did.

He knows how much we are going to suck. That's what he claimed. You know the all-knowing talk. At least we are trying not to suck so much.

Geesh, Hades. Be a little more optimistic, will ya? Christ knows what's he's got to work with. I think we have made at least some progress since he died.

I don't think that is possible religion dosnt exactly adapt quickly. Plus you cant predict what science will come up with next so trying to plot your religion around it would be next to impossible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well. Keeping an open mind will help. As well as admitting the fact that science has the final say on all matters concerning the physical universe.

Yeah. I guess. If only Christ is still alive today... We could go talk to him and get all the confusions sorted out.

Agreed. However, I will go one step further and say that religion should be practiced in the way that faith do not clash with scientific evidence in the first place.