Walsingham

Azarkon, fair points. 1. If we bail, the result won't be a transition into a tripartite state. Iran would push forward, and be met with Saudi Arabia pushing back. It's not just consistent with their strategic imperatives, but would also let them 'burn off' a bunch of unruly young men. Turkey has already been building troop deployments along its border with Kurdistan ready for this eventuality. Fun for everyone! Except the Iraqi people caught in the middle. 2. You are quite correct in saying that simply staying for the sake of honour is not a classically sensible thing to do. Although I recall Churchill saying in cabinet after Dunkirk that staying in the war and failing and being conquered was better than declaring peace. I feel we have a moral imperative to try now, whatever the cost. But then I also believe it is perfectly feasible, provided we can rally domestic support. Never forget that the disruptive forces in Iraq are also struggling to maintain motivation. 3. This is not to say that domestic support is the only issue. Lurking in the background is the rising urban dissent across the middle-east caused by over-population and lack of economic growth. Unless more can be done in Egypt, Syria, Saudi and so on, then the problem may escalate anyway. But if this is correct then pulling out will only ensure the gravitation of these dissatisfied elements towards Al Qaeda, the vanquishers of the West.

The indiscriminate and massive elements of the description are important. However, I always felt it was the threat to civilians that was the real issue. Post ww2 strategic targetting of civilians has been seen as taboo. Gas and bugs can harm troops who are unready, but if you VX'ed the US/UK army on alert, they'd be absolutely fine, while eveyone near them not lucky enough to have a suit or sealed vehicle would croak. Ditto for most common bugs, since the Army get inoculations, and have stocks of medicines. Civilians are going to get hurt far worse.

Lepercans? "Ye'll never get me pot'o'scabs!"

That big lizard has claws in a bunch of stuff. He's the John Gotti of the magical beast kingdom. Health potions, potions of speed, xenotoxin, you name it. Meshugger I agree that it depends what you are buying. But isn't marijuana a case in point example of what happens when prohibition declines? Any fool can grow it. So any fool does. I'm not saying it's not got drawbacks, but it's not financing FARC. Off topic, talking about prostitution, in the UK it's legal to offer sex for cash. It's ilegal to ask for sex for cash. Which always struck me as terribly polite.

I do recall dimly that psychology studies of media violence provoke not more viiolence, but the way it is expressed. That is using weapons instead of fists, or guns etc. Which makes sense if you think about it. As for ignorance being a breeding ground, that's true. But a little knowledge is a dangerous thing too. If you had games that gave you thefull stereoscopic experience of killing people it would deter most from ever considering it. BUt they don't. They have to sell, so they tart it up. Warnography, so to speak.

Well spotted. You recal we had a thread about this very point a short while back. The Sunnis have begun to wake up to the fact that if things go belly up completely and Al Qaeda get in then it's not going to be a state run by the good ole boys. It'll be boredom and bible (koran) studies for all and straight to bed after dinner.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6274116.stm Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's strategic team coach making his plans quite clear. 1. Removal of the coalition from Iraq 2. Overthrow of Iraqi government (an elected government to the best of my knowledge) 2. Move on to violent overthrow in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Can you say 'domino theory'? I thought I'd post this because I've noticed a degree of skepticism about the whole involvement in Iraq thing. I'll say it again for the cheap seats. It doesn't matter why we're there. We have to win now. Even if we're just being selfish.

WMD definition thread http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=47389

Gah, I looked it up and its correct. A WMD used to be something with the capacity to kill 10,000+ people in one go(a nuke) and now they're applying it to mean any unconventional weapon. A box of rat poison is passable as a WMD nowadays. Kaft, I think the more refined definition is something which has a pronounced capability to kill thusands of civilians, but not organised prepared military. This means gasses and bugs.

I agree. I think. I'm trying to say that we're both only partially responsible. But 'I' have the capacity to fix things. If I don't fix it then I'm a bad bad donkey. I suppose the analogy that would be better is, someone lights a fire and I keep feeding it. EDIT: By 'better' I mean supporting my initial claim. *coughs*

Don't look now, but there's one crawling up your shoulder.

Actually, gentelmen, I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that there should be limits to what can be shown, particularly in a game. Games teach attitudes and skills. This is a fact exploited by games like America's Army, and DIVE. So danger 1 is that you may be training people at a very low level to be accepting of ultra-violence. I'm not saying it's teh same as going shopping in downtown London on a summer saturday, but it's an effect. The second danger is that violence, real violence, is bloody appalling. The closer we get to accurately representing it the closer the psychological impact becomes. Really I guess all I'm saying is that while Manhunt may not be the line in the sand, there has to be a line. My question is where should that line be?

This can be proven using these long ticker tape records collected at moderator central.

Don't get me wrong. I'm in favour of anything that allows me to pass out drunk on my couch without setting fire to my groin.

Mustard gas was certainly found. Mustard gas is a WMD prohibited under the chemical weapons convention. There was a strong suggestion that nerve gas may also have been used during the halabja massacre, due to the condition of the bodies found without external lesions. Inteestingly the lack of lesions was used as 'proof' that the whole footage thing was a hoax as argued by the Iraqi government. But that has nothing to do with Scooter Libby.

I guess I'd make a distinction between historical responsibilty and immediate responsibility. If I walk into a room doused in petrol, knowing it's doused in petrol and spark up a cigarette am I responsible for the fire or the guy who put the petrol everywhere?

"you're so cool" - Hans Zimmer http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ab1l2TwFp8 It always make me feel shiny.

Tyical EU measure then. Like their regulation that made car/pedestrian collisons less than a fraction of a percent safer, but boosted emissions by making the cars less fuel efficient.

The Ravenite was where the apostles used to play cards. When they weren't shooting people.

I thought it was decided at the Ravenite diner in Manhattan

Fair point, Tale. That's why I considered the second poll question necessary. You know I subscribe to both views. Prohibition came first, but given prohibition immediate responsibility passes to the individual.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughN...05?feedType=RSS I'm not a smoker, but wouldn't this just lead to smokers sucking up cigarettes faster?

I don't see why it being a made up holiday is a problem. If I declared tomorrow Hawaii 5-0 day, and we all had to sleep with hot blonde women and drive fast cars, would you care?

I am struggling to see how it is silly. I buy the drugs, the money goes upstream to an organisation that uses the money to create more rdrugs, but mroe importantly to grow in power and control over the producer country. Don't buy the drugs and they don't get the money. Or have I misssed something?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6272684.stm I wouldn't encourage anyone to admit to doing class A drugs on an internet forum. However, I would ask the members whether they feel using drugs such as cocaine and heroin make them complicit in the activities of the drugs barons and terrorist groups that grow them.