Drakonnen

See, this is the beauty of it though. As the Exile, you don't NEED the force. Thats what sets it up as the better confrontation, in my opinion. Multiple times we heard how the Exile turned from the Force and grew stronger for it because he develoepd abilities that he otherwise wouldn't have nurtured while continuing his Force use. Nihilus can't shut himself off from it though. So alone, with the two of them, Nihilus would have no one to feed off because the Exile would just shut himself off and manage to defeat him without using the force at all. Instead of being seemingly random and not understanding how to control it as when he "lost" the Force the first time on Malachor, Kreia's final lesson to her student would be how to turn it off and on like a light switch, and how to use that unique power to defeat Nihilus. So I don't see it as a plot hole. I see it as a plot enhancement and tie in opportunity

No, I think thats an inaccurate statement. If you read through my complete comments, I did talk about how having the big climax with the fight against Nihilus at the very end would be better storytelling wise without fundamentally altering the nature of the story in addition to leaving a better impression of the game in general by saving the biggest action and epic feel for the very end.

If you want some "rare" and neat items, I suggest downloading some good mods /Shameless Plug Like my Jedi v. Sith Armor pack for instance! http://www.pcgamemods.com/11332/ Or the Jabba's Palace Themed Dancer Outfit ModWith Exotic Mesh Oola Themed Outfit and Slave Leia Outfit: http://www.pcgamemods.com/10877 (More images at the actual site) /End shameless plug

The cheat console works. You just can't see it. Obsidian decided to hide it. After you hit ~ just type in whatever you want (carefully) then hit enter. It'll work.

Exactly, that failing is simply one of your own design, in your assuming that the story is ONLY about the Exile's self discovery. It isn't. Yes, exactly, she was a bad climax. But no matter how you build up the fight with her, the fight against a prattling, gimped old woman is never going to seem as large as it does against a planet consuming, Jedi killing, Force black hole with his own fleet and capital ship held together by sheer will. Kreia just can't compete with that as far as grandiose and epic, climatic sense goes. Nothing wrong with diversity, but where diversity = a premature climax and a completely boring endgame, then diversity has to give way. However, you're assuming doing the way I suggested it isn't diverse. It still explores those ambiguous themes, it just does it in a way that continually builds towards a climax at the end. No, I hardly think that some droids could have the same importance ascribed to them as Nihilus. Its really rather simple: Planet consuming, multiple Jedi killing bad ass > prattling, gimped betraying old hag > assassin droids with funny language modules. Yet earlier you said: So you see, there is a link there, even if its not a personal one. The Exile must overcome which is essentially the monsterous version of himself, what he could have become, or what he could still become. Once he has overcome that, that is how he truly has become whole, either by defeating the danger and turning from it entirely and turning from the path in lightside fashion, or destroying Nihilus and essentially taking his place in true darksider/Sith fashion. No, its just that your definition is lacking. For instance, the Jedi and Sith both have the same power of the Force and connection to it, but they are still the antithesis of eachother when it comes to how they use it. That is the same way the Exile and Nihilus are opposites. Nihilus let his power run rampant, he consumes others. The Exile cut himself off from it rather than go that route, and once he returned to the force, he drew subtly from others, and in essence strengthened them as well by awakening them to the force, rather than destroying them. Again, you're just losing yourself in a limited definition. The story itself doesn't really change. Exile still has his self discovery, all the same themes are explored, it just rearranges two parts of it to build towards the biggest climax at the very end. Stop acting as if that rearrangement suddenly completely changes the story or destroys diversity. It doesn't. It just saves the best of the action where everyone is involved for the very end.

You can still have amorally ambiguous tale with the climax at the END. However, instead of suggesting I go watch Star Wars, if thats your bag, maybe you should just go see Sin City... Once again you say it well. He is unimportant currently, despite all the build up surrounding him. He could be cut out. Thats the problem. He was completely wasted. Why did Luke have to face Vader and the Emperor before being a true Jedi? Why did the Jedi have trials at all for Padawans? Because the Hero's Trial is a necessary part of any hero's journey or epic such as this. Take it up with the JEdi council and George Lucas if you don't agree. Thats simply the way Star Wars is, and this is a Star Wars game. Uhh, he'd have to go after Nihilus to stop him from destroying the galaxy, if he's a lightsider, or from destroying the galaxy you intend to rule, if you're a Sith. He doesn't have to have a personal tie like that. He is the Exile's antithesis. Both suffered at Malachor V, yer where the Exile shut himself off from the Force, Nihilus went with it and now feeds off it. Thats why it is the Exile who must defeat him Again, a game title Star Wars, should be Star Wars-esque. Arguing that a Star Wars game shouldn't by Star Warsy is just silly. If you're the one whoe doesn't want Star Wars, you should be the one looking for Non-Star Wars games then.

Yeah, thats exactly right. She has things to say. And then after that, she has more to say. Then when she is done with that, she has MORE to say. She's little more than a boring hag. Couldn't have said it better myself, Blaise. I want Star Wars. And KOTOR2, despite being sold as a Star Wars game, DOES NOT DELIVER IT. As for the whole "shoe horning it" get over it. It wouldn't be something forced like you seem to suggest, it would have just been a much better set up. See, thats where you're wrong. It would still be about the Exile, even more so than the other way. He still finds out all the stuff from Kreia, learns how to use his special power better, and comes to terms with himself and the past. However, before going off after Revan to fight the "true Sith" he TRULY becomes whole by facing his final test: Nihilus. Take Return of the Jedi for instance. Luke goes back to Dantooine to find Yoda again and speak with him and Obi-Wan, finding out all he needs to know and that his training is complete. However, he's not "whole", not a Jedi yet, until he confronts Vader and the Emperor. It would work the same with the Exile. Kreia would give him his final guidance, but to be complete, he would have to face his final test, who is essentially the antihesis of the Exile to a certain extent. You're absolutely right that my way would be more "Star Wars". I think "Star Wars" is what most people want when they buy a Star Wars game.

Thats the real problem. It wasn't a strong climax, or even a climax at all. One old woman who is rather easy to defeat on a mostly barren world, and (big surprise here) she prattles on near endlessly, interspersing a handful of useful information in with a substantial amount of pointless BS before finally croaking. Yeah, quite the "Strong Climax". *Yawn* Its the sort of Climax that makes me wish lightsabers didn't instantly cauterize wounds, just so we might have had the possibility that Kreia would've just bled to death back when Sion gimped her. I mean, I hope KOTOR3 doesn't go that route with its "climaxes". I'm not sure I could take all the excitement of "strong climaxes" such as that...

Not really. Actually, it makes even more sense for him to go there before fighting the one who should be the ultimate bad guy so that he deals with the past and comes to terms with it, making himself whole, understanding his true power before the final fight and how he must defeat this unmatched, planet consumer who has wiped out scores of Jedi. Its more traditional among hero myths/stories (Hey, they even got it right with Visas, making her come to terms with her past before fighting Nihilus), and it makes more sense than the Exile just showing up on the ship and cleaving him down with a lightsaber, which any of those other damned Jedi should have been able to do. It would display the true need for the Exile in this story, by making it something only the Exile could accomplish, and not just any other random Jedi.

I didn't see it as a cliffhanger. I saw it as a lack of an ending. Look at all the Star Wars movies. Sure, there were issues to be resolved and cliffhangers at the end of the movie, such as Han Solo being captured, and the start of the Clone Wars, but the climaxes were still at very the end, with a brief period afterwards which at least gave that chapter a sense of closure, while retaining the Epic feel (the scene amongst the Rebel Fleet at the end of the Empire Strikes Back, for example). Doing it my way, you still get the mysterious stuff about the "true Sith" and there is still a cliffhanger left about the Exile going off to find Revan (similar to Lando and Chewie heading off after Han), but it comes right after the real Climax, and does so giving this chapter of the KOTOR series a sense of closure it so desperately needs without detracting from the darkness that awaits in the next game.

I've really been pondering how the whole end part of the game went wrong, recently. Not just the fact that there really was no ending (hell, even if there was a real ending there was still no epic feel at the end). For me, KOTOR2, just didn't have the Epic feel that KOTOR1 had, and I think I figured out why it left me with that impression... I think where Obsidian went wrong was the order of the bosses and final worlds: putting Nihilus and Telos first, then Sion and Traya on Malachor second. The whole game it seemed like Nihilus was built up as the baddest dude on the block. A planet consumer who wiped out scores of Jedi. Yet he was the third to last boss (Not to mention ridiculously easy to beat). After the fight with him at Telos and the whole space battle raging on, thats when you go to boring and dreary Malachor and face down the other two. It was all down hill from there. Obsidian should have made it so you went to Malachor FIRST. After learning nothing of real value from the Jedi Masters and Atris on Telos, we should have them left Telos and went straight to Malachor to take down Traya, there you would defeart Sion, and meet Traya like you're supposed to. You fight her of course, and mortally wound her, but before she goes Traya has real information for you, one final lesson from master to apprentice, and not just endless rambling: How wield the Exile's true power which is how to defeat Nihilus. Nihilus feeds off the Force after all, and the Exile is the one person who was able to shut himself off from it, and she teaches him how to turn it off and on like a lightswitch, and how to use that against Nihilus. She also has your old lightsaber for you which she took from Atris, and gives it to you before she dies. THEN you leave Malachor and head back to Telos once traya has informed you Nihilus is going to strike, and where the Telosians, the Onderonians, the Republic and the Sith all are at, waging their huge space battle, the TRUE climax of the game. Then you proceed from there as you would have earlier, boarding the Ravager to face down the true baddest of the bad in the game, saving him for the very last like you should. To make the final battle better, the more Force you use on Nihilus, the more he feeds off it and the stronger her gets, so to defeat him the Exile must shut himself off from the Force entirely once again (although he can turn it back on afterwards). It makes far more sense to me. After that, you leave the Ravager and that is when talk to Admiral Carth, who further seals the deal about convincing you of the need to follow Revan and determine his fate, or join him in the battle. You settle things with your party members (if there were a real ending that is), then head off alone to hopefully find Revan and fight against the "true Sith." Overall, I think this would have done a much better job of building things to a climax so that the climax happens at the end, with all the various factions present in the heat of a big battle in true Star Wars fashion, rather than climaxing early, then dragging along all down hill from there for another couple of hours through the dreary and downright boring Malachor. With the Climax at the end as it should be, it would leave gamers far more satisfied, and the lasting impression would be of the Epic struggle at the very end, not the tedious romp through a boring world and an extremely long dialogue tree. Anyone else agree?

I can argue against them. If Luke and a gimped Vader managed to take down the Emperor, Yoda and Obi Wan in his prime should've been able to do the job. Maybe they should've gotten to it instead of running off and hiding! I always did like Ulic Qel Droma, though I wouldn't consider him the "greatest" Jedi. I've always admired the sort who were willing to try and skate the edge of the darkside to try and defeat it, even though it never works out. Although in Ulic's case, many people forget that he only went completely dark because he was infected with a poisons developed by ancient Sith alchemists, that when he got angry once it ignited it and pushed him over the edge completely to the darkside. Otherwise, who is to say he might not have turned back...

Sort of like using "teh" repeatedly when the English language has used the word "the" quite well for thousands of years. Mind boggling! Besides, my Oola themed dancer outfit is far superior to the original dancer outfit made by some guy at Obsidian in a cubicle! (Although I'm actually joking to a certain degree. I do like my Mesh outfit better, but I couldn't have done it without the WONDERFUL base texture made by the guys at Obsidian, and I got to do mine and spend time on all the details without having the pressure of adhering to some LucasArts accountant's ridiculous time table!) Sorry for jacking the thread by the way, lol, but at the time it was a good response considering the other comments.

So, I take it you're easy to please, or that you actually didn't play the game or pay attention to the ending...or lack thereof.

Well, there is a screenshot of every girl in each outfit (including Visas Marr), so take your pick Personally, Mira is far more my type than the others, although Kelly Hu did an amazing job with Visas' voice.

Yeah, sorry, but it works perfectly fine for me.

You got that right. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Think its to much to hope for Silk lingerie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> no its just in her price range! or shes just a complete ****! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IF she is nice ill buy her a red one <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the see-thourgh kind would work for me! :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Speakiing of "See through" and Jabba's dancers... You should check out my Jabba's Palace Dancer Outfit Mod then which includes an Oola themed exotic mesh outfit. You can get it here: http://www.pcgamemods.com/10877 Here is a screenshot, though there is more at the link: Also includes Leia Slave Girl Outfit:

Are you kidding me?! I hated...HATED Shatterpoint. Sure Mace Windu is a cool character, but that was some of the WORST writing I've ever seen, not just in any Star Wars novel, but in any book period. I was extremely happy to be done with it. The Author didnt describe the big battles at all. For instance, when the Republic is landing its troops near the end and their forces come under attack, he doesn't really describe it. He just says how many landing craft there are, then tells you how many are left. TERRIBLE WRITING.

Jacen and Anakin Solo should be on that list. After all, it was pretty much Jacen who saved everything at the end of Unifying Force. If I was going to pick someone to be, it would probably be him, or maybe Luke since he gets to sleep with Mara Jade who is a fictional hottie

Couldn't agree more about the NPCs. Never used T3, Bao-Dur or Mandalore other than when required. Never used G0T0 or HK. Once I had Mira, Handmaiden and Visas all as Jedi, I stopped using Atton because why would I want to look at him when I had those 3 chicks (especially with the Exotic Mesh dancer outfits and Jedi armor I made http://img84.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img84&image=miramesh5dn.jpg http://img180.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img180&ima...malejedi6ot.jpg ). Once those three got pretty good, I didn't use the gimp Kreia anymore either. Plus it seemed like I unlocked everyone's whole dialog tree pretty early since it was based off of influence, which made the second half of the game rather dull in that regard. They should have gotten rid of G0T0 and Bao-Dur at the least, plus one of the females (probably Handmaiden with some of her characteristics going to Mira and the possibility of a romance with her).

I wouldn't really call TSL's writing "great". Don't get me wrong, some stuff was good/interesting, but how many times did I really need to hear about the force "echoes". Honestly. There was nothing epic about the game. Gee whiz, hidden Sith and boy they're dark, and even more evil! And that Nihilus in who's vision I'm no more than a spec! Oh, did I just cleave him down with a handful of lightsaber strikes? All that build up for that? Only I, the exiled Jedi, could've managed that? The villains in general sorta sucked in TSL. At least with Malak, you had this connection to him, this personal score to settle over his betrayal of your former self. He was just some Sith Lord, strong but not all powerful. Here he was bringing the Republic to its knees and yet he wasn't even able to face his old Master man to man to take the Dark Lord title. He was still trying to unlock the full potential of the Star Forger to grow even stronger. With Nihilus, it was like they tried to show him as darkness embodied, all powerful. They really went too far with it, tried to make it too epic, and failed miserably as a result. There was nothing "real" about him. The guy was all hype. Anyways, I much prefer KOTOR1 to TSL, by quite a large margin. I hope in KOTOR3, and the sequels that hopefully follow, we're not going to see one boring large story after another. I'd rather see a story arc done over a few games, where they are fighting the real Sith Empire, yet not expecting to defeat it outright in the very first game. Sorta like how the movies are. The heroes destroyed the death Star and rescued the galaxy in A New Hope, but the Empire was still there, as were its leaders and it came back even stronger. The games need to have that sorta desperate, epic and prolonged struggle vibe to them. More action as well, not droning on endlessly about echoes and force bonds... (I won't even go into how dumb I thought it was that "all" the Jedi were dead or in hiding after such a short time span in between games).

Thats not true. A Double bladed lightsaber starts out as having a higher damage than regular lightsabers (which is pretty annoying). Then you can put your very best upgrade crystals in the lightsaber and the bonuses work for both hands. Two regular sabers are more -versatile- because you can but different bonuses such as stun and attribute modifiers since you have more slots, but for pure damage, doublesabers are the best (unfortunately, since I like the look of two singles better).

I play to "see all" as well, I did every side quest and main quest, explored all the dialog with my allies, explored every corner of every world (I'm a fanatic about being able to see -everything- on a map so I'll even run into corners with nothing in them just so it lights up on the map) and it only took me just over 21 hours to beat. This game was much shorter than KOTOR1, in my opinion.

Exactly. Aside from Palpatine, most Darksiders never looked like walking corpses. I find the KOTOR darkside transitions annoying, which is why I based the one on my head more closely to Anakin's darkside transition.

Spare me your BS condescention. I did every single plot and subplot, and explored all the conversation with all my allies. Its not a question of "not knowing what was going on" (where you got the from I have no idea), but of the storyline being muddled and rather sucky. As for the KOTOR twist, sure you expected it, but it made for a much better storyline than this one.