Shdy314

Inspired by Gromnir's topic titled: skills I thought this topic was a lot more important than a lot of the most contentious posts on here which are pure opinion arguments over writing in CRPGs(Is PS:T's writing better etc.) and things like that. I don't think anyone could argue skills were important and/or useful in KOTOR and I think Obsidian definitely needs to fix this blinding oversight. A lot of great ideas were presented for repair skill in the skills topic and a few ideas for security but then it kind of petered out which I think is too bad. These were the ideas I came up with for better or for worse. Comments, suggestions, improvements etc. are all welcome of course and I hope everyone comes up with everything they can to improve skills in KOTOR 2. Developers do read the board from time to time and with any luck it will influence skills in KOTOR 2. Ok, so there were a lot of problems with skills. The biggest problem, as I think we all know is of course the lightsaber. So the question becomes how do we keep the lightsaber as powerful as it should be without nerfing it with something as stupid as putting Cortosis in everything? Which I will address in Security. We also need to think of how every skill was implemented and what made it useless. Awareness: Arguably this and demolitions were the second least useless skills since credits were so hard to come by in the game (X-box version at least) I always used Mission to recover traps and then sell them. However the traps did not do nearly enough damage. By the end I could run through them and If I needed to then force heal. And there were not nearly enough. I wouldn't change this skill other than to put in more traps and increase their damage. This would neccessitate making Powerful hostile NPCs like Dark Jedi do awareness checks or for gameplay reasons traps just don't do as much to enemies as they do to you. Otherwise setting traps and luring enemies could become really cheesy like in Throne of Bhaal. I think being a Jedi should confer an automatic bonus in this well as well due to the force and/or allows you to run without awareness penalties. Also possibly use it in dialogue sometimes to use this as insight. Like PE in FO2. Demolitions: Basically the same as Awareness. Increased power in traps makes recovering/disarming them more important and desirable. Careful scaling of their difficulty to disarm and their damage ability makes keeping this skill high more important. Computer Use: Everything important had a keycard. No way around this except for missions where someone with high computer use HAS to be in your party. The suggestion to remove computer spikes comepletely is a good one. There were hundreds and hundreds of spikes in the game. I didn't care if the cost was 20 or 2 I am willing to bet if you took all the spikes in the game and then checked the maximum cost for every time you could use them there'd be a lot more spikes than uses. Hacking should be based solely on the skill and have DC like traps. A FEW spikes throughout the game to help in one time situations is fine. High computer use can be neccessary in sidequests just not plot critical ones. Stealth: IS useful. I know not many people used it but Mission can be a real bad ass with it. HOWEVER the belt is no good. It isn't so useful you'll want your character to wear a stealth belt over something like CNS strength amplifier. And switching the stealth belt to CNS after every "backstab" would be annoying as hell. So get rid of the belt. Items can still enhance it but not be required. To appease people that want realism simply make it activated by some item in your inventory or even kewler add it to the equippable inventory. Like an addon that can be attached to any belt. This would allow for some cool new items that clip onto your belt and let someone with a low stealth skill but a really good stealth enhancer slip by low DC aware enemies. Repair: Only useful for HK-47. Apparently it and security will now affect the workbench and people have already made some really good suggestions so I can skip over this. Persuade: Slightly useful. As with the other skills include more times to use it AND make it a viable alternative to Dominate:Mind. For example dont let me use dominate when it's a powerful force user. Make it less likely to work on force users so If Im really charismatic I'll have a better chance with Persuade than Dominate:Mind. Let Dominate Mind work as a back-up in some situations so If I fail in a persuade check I'll have the option then to Dominate:Mind. Make other characters more mindful of when and how I use it. There were some great conversations with party members when you used it especially for landing fees. That was great but all they did was talk. Hopefully this should be a part of the party members reacting more to a DS or LS character. This way I can ask for a larger reward from a good person using persuade and not get DS points and not angering good people but using Dominate:Mind to do it would be. (Longest because it addresses the lightsaber issue) Security: The lightsaber issue. Yes, the lightsaber is the master key and should remain so. Here's what you do. Trap more items! This is so easily explained in a futuristic universe. In bases for example practically everything should rigged to either explode or set off an alarm that spawns extra enemies that converge on the alarm. Why? Very simply, KEYPADS. Security should be able to hack them and open doors and let you feel stealthy and sly where a brute character forces it open alerts the whole base, maybe sets off a bomb (now more damaging) and fights extra enemies. If the keypad is destroyed by a lightsaber or senses a door open without a code being entered there should be repercussions! Hacking should be a part of security and vice versa. Security should be enhanced SLIGHTLY with stealth. Perhaps these could be sync bonuses like in NWN a certain amount of ranks in disarm traps got you a +1 in setting them and vice versa. Let characters inclined to steal (especially DS people) anything that isn't bolted down stealth and then use security to open containers and steal from them without being caught and without turning characters hostile. Like a DS character may want to steal some armor from a Republic base but for many realistiuc and logical reasons doesn't want to anyone to know and have to slaughter a bunch of soldiers. Or even an LS character that justifies it by really needing the armor BUT obviously doesn't want to kill a bunch of good guys for it. I asked way back when in the KOTOR forums and was assured some things wouldn't be bashable and there would be opportunities where you would want to steal unseen rather than kill everyone and bash open containers but I was lied to. Also if combat is made more difficult this will encourage stealthy play. One possibility is to let the extra guards spawned in by the alarm give no xp or equipment. Then players will really want to avoid smashing their way through what should be a very heavily well defended base. Not every place should be like this obviously. Go ahead and let plenty of doors and containers be openable by lightsaber but keep it in context. A lock box in an apartment obviously wouldn't be trapped with a bomb or summon a bunch of guards. Some very important doors can be lightsaber immune. These can be big thick vault or blast doors etc. with cortosis and very difficult keypads to hack. Take for example that mining station the Ebon Hawk is on. Maybe there is a big vault like area with some super valuable ore or a lightsaber crystal or tons of credits that is quite obviously very expensively designed to keep people out no matter what. Then security people could try to hack the keypad. Computer users may find it buried deep in a computer's encrypted files and brute characters may find it in a desk that in addition to being trapped also is by a worthy foe they have to fight. Finally the most useless skill Treat Injury: Way more useless than even security or computer use. Why? One reason and one reason only: Force Cure/Heal. I must admit I'm kind of stumped by this one. I don't think I want to decrease the effectiveness of force healing or anything and should definitely be kept. You'd have to increase the medkits usefulness by a ridiculous amount and if you did that it'd probably already heal enough where it didn't matter if your treat injury was 0. I don't think crippled limbs and making it a doctor like skill is feasible either. Maybe just nix it comepletely. Ideas on this are very welcome. FINALLY (I know big sigh of relief) lessen the number of items there are that increase skills or make skill DCs very high. With the proper items Canderous could have some really high awareness and demolitions. Most characters by the end had some outrageously high skills with nothing in the game nearly difficult enough to justify needing them so high. So give out fewer skill points and items OR increase the DC. Make specialists more viable and make it so your character cannot do everything alone. And definitely do not add skills. Make the ones already in more useful in more situations. This is a lot better than having 20 skills and 2 times where each one is truly useful.

But if you're roleplaying, Tyrell's proposal makes sense. If you are playing a conflicted character, you'd get both options. If you're playing a pure good character, the evil options simply don't occur to you. The problem is, that's not how evil works in SW. If it was any other genre, I'd say the idea has some merit - let folks work their way up to pure evil or pure good. Or not. But that's just not right for a Star Wars game. Saying evil options don't even OCCUR to your character because he is a saint is stupid in any game setting. especially in SW(as you pointed out) But is NOT ROLEPLAYING in the slightest. Oh ok so my character has no human emotions/thoughts/etc. he is just a goody two shoes paladin type with no depth that cannot even conceive of an evil act is what Tyrell's idea means. This is dumb. I consider myself a good guy. Not a saint but a good guy at the least. Doesn't mean I never get the urge to punch someone or yell. And sometimes I do yell and I have been in fights. People are not 2d. Playing your character in an RPG and then all of sudden finding out no matter what your character is now a 2d goody two shoes is dumb. People complain about Malak's shallowness and then want to be forced into a specific role with no control over their character. Now that's shallow. Roleplaying a good character means choosing to be good even when you are constantly tempted to be evil.

What a wonderful easter egg that would be. It would go down in gaming history.

But they do IF you roleplay. If for no reason you just decide to go evil at that point then yeah it feels a bit cheap. If for example you go through with a conflicted character straddling good and evil this is the moment of truth where you decide if you're going to be Revan again or someone else. Just choose the dialogue that fits for you. And let other's choose the dialogue that fits for them. When you're roleplaying all your character has done makes who they are. Which chooses how they will decide on the temple rooftop.

They need to give him a personality. I didnt observe any at all in the first game. In everysingle SW movie (Even in Episode III). R2-D2 has a scene in which he is saving a person's life: Episode I: Fixing that ship that the Queen was on and giving it the power to jump into hyperspace. Episode II: Saving Padme in the droid factory Episode III: (I would say but it would be a spoiler) Episode IV: Saving Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie from that garbage place. Episode V: I can't remember.... Episode VI: Helping Leia/Han open that door on Endor. So in every movie he did something memorable. In KOTOR he opened that locked door to the Sith Base, but that isn't really memorable. On the Leviathon instead of other characters being picked to rescue you, it should have been T3-M4 saving you in some way and form. Same thing should happen in KOTOR. That why his character would relate better to you as he has saved your life many times. Rather then just opening a door to a Sith Base.... Exactly. He needs some kewl moments and a few humorous conversations. I always used T3-M4 to rescue us on the Leviathan. Made him a lot more memorable to me. Luke talks to R2-D2 quite a bit and there's no reason the PC shouldn't also talk to T3. Maybe HK-47 and T3-M4 could pal around on the ship and say things about each other in conversation or have some inter party conversations. That could be funny.

Man you just don't get it. There is always a defining moment in books and games. A moment of truth as it were where things can go either way. Vader killing the Emperor after 20 years of doing evil is an example of that. Or Luke having the option to slay Vader and become the Emperor's apprentice. In KOTOR this is the temple rooftop. It's just that normally the good hero resists the temptation and continues on the story slaying the evil yadda yadda yadda. However in KOTOR sometimes people chose to make that their moment to finally fall to the dark side. Why do you care so much? It's their game. Let them play it how they want and you play yours how you want. It's comepletely optional and doesn't penalize you at all for remaining true to your character. If you are a super LS Jedi and you think it is stupid don't choose to ally with Bastila. I personally had a more neutral Jedi who was deeply conflicted after the revelation and remembering more and more of his past and this is when he finally had to choose which side he was on. It's so simple. You're complaining about something you aren't forced to do and aren't penalized for. Anyways the final choice being reflected in the ending is a good idea and should solve the problem you have with it while leaving it open for people like me. So discussion over.

You can't have a choice early in the game that locks you in as only good or evil. The themes of falling and redemption are very big in star wars. Making LS Jedi immune to the dark side is incredibly inconsistent with those themes and what we know of the force.

That's true putting SW on any game really helps sales. It didn't hurt it was also a great game though.

As Darque said. Just because it doesn't ship with editing tools doesn't mean the game is unmoddable. And I wasn't saying they should be moddable and then fans would fix their problems I was just pointing out that if amateur (and by that I merely mean non professionals not untalented) modders can take a game like ToB with fights as cheesy as they were and make them HARD then surely Obsidian can do the same. And the Tactics Mod doesn't make cannon fodder npc's super tough, by their very name they are just fodder after all, it made the boss fights incredibly tough.

I pretty much agree. Going over 20 and especially gaining Epic levels in D20 inspired games tends to end up making every fight cheese. TOB is a great example of this... HOWEVER there are mods that made these otherwise cheesy fights incredibly hard. If Obsidian can make the fights as hard as they were in the Tactics mod for example then we won't have anything to worry about.

They need to give him a personality. I didnt observe any at all in the first game. That's what I mean. They just didn't give him any chances to shine. He talks in ONE dialog. The robot on Korriban that doesn't want to kill anymore. And it's a funny dialogue. He beeps and boops and the killer robot responds and says something like "Thanks for your support". But HK-47 also has dialogue with the robot and he's funnier and there's more of it. But T3-M4's dialogue trumps HK-47's. He needs some moments like R2-D2 has in the movies. There should be a few times your character says something to him and he boops back. And if you talked to him on the ship that was pretty amusing too.

HEHEH Yeah that is stupid. But I don't think he really believed you were Revan. He probably assumed you were just another student that managed to poison Yuthura and Uthar (which is an option).

I guess to some people 'evil' just isn't noteworthy unless it's bland, shallow and completely clear cut and unimaginative. Bioware's conception of evil can't get past the maniacal laughting/mustache twirling disney stereotype. If that's what your idea of a 'great' character i can't help it, but i personally prefer something more mature and in line with reality. This is what made Torment such a great game in my book, the fact each character didn't simply befall on some established cliche. At the end, you almost symphatize with Raven, and as for the last incarnation, how could a character matter more when YOU were the main villian of the game. ?!? What could be more distressing then to learn you caused the death of your eternal love ?!? How could you remain unaffected for what you did to Morte or Drakkon ?!? All the evil and torment you caused, all because you were too cowardly to face your own destiny ?!? None of this mattered to you ?!? It had no effect on me because I did not do anything to Morte or anyone else. I was a comepletely different person everytime I awoke. I asimilated the original me. That definitely makes ME the dominant personality which had no recollection of what the other me's merely inhabiting my body did. That's like wondering how I could have not considered myself evil after all Revan had done. With that kind of logic you should wake up with full DS poiints. I did not consider myself Revan nor did my TNO think of himself as someone else. Deionnarra was not my eternal love. Annah was. Sarevok was not a cliche villain. Especially after he was expanded in ToB. Mellissan was an expansion villain but come on! The servant Bhaal entrusted with his final rites to bring him back from the dead then betraying Bhaal to steal his power. That ain't shallow or tacky evil. That was really kewl. Especially when Bhaal is summoned and rages at Mellisan's betrayal. I forget what her line is to Bhaal but it's really great. Also try the Ascension Mod which was created by Dave Gaider(I Believe) Adds a lot more to the end of ToB. NWN I grant you the main villain was pretty weak. But the joy of NWN has never been its single player aspect. Yes I know it is all opinion. I didn't think I needed to preface these kinds of my posts with "This is my opinion..." As it so obviously is. At the very least though I think it is pretty much fact that even NWN main villain had more story to them than the Enclave or Horrigan whom we know almost nothing about.

THE SLIDESHOW ENDING. Which was great because it was nice to have a wrap up for the places you'd visited and things you'd done and really see how the way you did quests changed the entire area. Made me feel more than any other game that I'd changed the world. I would say this is probably the best ending of any RPG I've ever played. And I've never seen it repeated anywhere. Why? Which is similar to the epilogues of Throne of Bhaal. Which was great because you got to know where the NPCs you traveled with went after traveling with you and reaching such epic levels. So they got some closure to their lives and things that couldn't be addressed in the game were at least wrapped up in the end. Like Minsc making it into the Berserker lodge. If you like the NPCs then you'll like knowing how they ended up.

You don't have to. Anyone that wants to make something officially SW without getting sued for millions of dollares DOES. Bioware has the best evil characters of any RPG company. As opposed to FO2 or PS:T(Their biggest weakness in my opinion) where you didn't know who the true villain was until the end and they just didn't matter so much. Whereas with Bioware games like BG or BG2 the main character had so much backstory and personality they rivaled the PC. Though Malak is a bit shallower than some previous Bio games. I am just saying this is the way the Sith are. Sorry I agree GL has done a lot to hurt star wars but most Sith stuff was written by others and approved by Lucasarts. Except for unofficial fanfic anything SW has to have GL's stamp or they would be sued for copyright infringement. I also think the Sith make sense the way they are. Their teachings advocate the attainment of absolute power and encourage ANY means to reach this goal no matter what. Not to mention the kind of people that are more apt to go DS are angry hateful people and the DS feeds this side of them to the point they lose the ability to think rationally and become consumed with lust for power. Therefore their teachings must be changed if they are to become truly united which would require a truly charismatic and respected Sith but even people such as Exar Kun have ultimately failed to truly unify the Sith. I am not saying the Sith cannot be changed. Just that they shouldn't suddenly be portrayed differently without an explanation.

This makes me think of the slideshow ending of FO2 and is a great idea.

Great point. (To darque's post.)

Maybe (at least I never heard it anywhere else) but KOTOR is canon. And I think the idea is kewl.

Yeah, but this is just an arbitrary arse characterization which doesn't have to turn into a canon to describe a society that has been in struggle with itself for 40.000 freaking galactic years, you'd think there would be SOME change in such a large span of time. Just because emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader are both pshycotic sociopaths doesn't mean every single sith in the entire hystory of a galaxy far far away from making ANY sense has to be modeled after them. I say destroy the old canons and give us a restructured characterization of the sith, we don't need an entire society of Anakins Skywalkers, for the love of god... It isn't arbritrary characterization. It is how their society works according to people that were given authorization by Lucasarts to create it. They could change but not suddenly. A reason would have to be created and a good one too. Personally I think only someone becoming the Sithari and rewriting their beliefs could do it.

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore. Again, i guess i'm not into SW enough to care about the lure of the darkside all the time. My judgement was strictly based on that when you're playing an RPG, there should be a time when you "suffer" from your choices you done in the past, this shouldn't be restricted to SW universe but to games in general. Ok then. But for us people that bought KOTOR because it is the first SW RPG you can see how we'd like the universe to work the way we have always seen it work? Anyways how is forcing an LS or DS character on the rooftop to remain true to their alignment suffering? Your character was Revan. I find it hard to believe being offered everything he had lost and vengeance against his would be killer as something not at all tempting to even the nicest Jedi. Perhaps it is enough to pull the old Revan back and wipe out all that Jedi Mind control business.

It said actions as in ALL the choices you make in the game. Not action which means that one action on top of that roof. Youre getting really worked up over something so unimportant. If you feel that a DS or LS Jedi should have no choice on the rooftop then just always play it that way. The option can remain there for us clearer headed more RP inclined players.

Okae fine then maybe Revan was destined to go DS no matter what. Or LS. Saying he did something because it was destiny is ludicrous. Destiny is only what someone will do because of who they are. Not because at the moment of truth destiny takes over their body and makes them do things a certain way. How would you have liked the entire temple rooftop scene and beyond to be a cutscene while your destiny is fulfilled. Now that would have nullified all your choices in the game. Also until the movie comes out anything can be changed. Unless Lucas himself says it. And even then there's a good chance he might still change it. It is also irrelevant so who cares?

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore.

I will easily answer all of that BS. I'm not complaining at all. I liked the final decision. You're the one complaining about something comepletely optional. I am not going to attempt to discuss this with you if you will not accept something that has been verified about a billion times in SW. ANy LS Jedi can fall at anytime. Sometimes it's gradual and sometimes it's one fateful choice. If you wont accept this there is no real discussion here. Even the most basic uninformed SW fan knows this for a fact. You keep using extremes in examples. What about people that roleplayed a Grey kind of Jedi. Someone like Jolee who never chose one way or the other. The final choice was also designed to force more neutral character to finally choose a side. You keep justifying taking away our ability to RP by saying you can RP elsewhere in the game. Surprisingly most people want to RP the whole time in an RPG game. Thats right I am complaining I wouldn't be able to fall to the DS. I want to have that choice always available to me. Ive said why a million times. There are RP reasons and there are "realism" (realistic in the SW universe) reason. The choices you make during the game do affect the fate of the galaxy. The temple rooftop IS ONE OF THOSE DECISIONS. And who says the decisions only affect the galaxy. They have serious repercussions for the fate of Manaan and Korriban, and the fates of individuals, etc. It doesn't go against anything. As I just pointed out your character choices do matter throughout the game. There are defining moments like this in all kind of games. It always comes down to the end. It's called a climax. What matters is how the universe and you have been affected throughout the game. If you are a super self righteous LS Jedi then RP that. But don't tell me my characters can never have a change of heart or anything. Otherwise why include LS or DS choices at all? Everything that leads up to the rooftop affects your character and how he will react. At least it does if you're role playing. Answered it all easily.

Then there's the problem. You're not accepting one of the most basic tenets of star wars. DS IS ALWAYS A DANGER TO ANY LS JEDI NO MATTER WHAT. Does YOda go around force choking people and using dark side force powers? I mean he is super LS Jedi so he must be immune to the dark side yes? NO. It is a quest just like every other quest in the game and you are given both options just like every other quest.