The Great Phantom

Well, I guess that we can only compare what he says to what Kreia says: Kreia says that she was there when Revan was "discovered" to be Force Sensitive, and that later, he returned to her when he was falling to the Dark Side, to find out "the best way" to leave the Order... whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, Disciple mentions a lot of Masters, including that one twi'lek guy that I forget the name of "without a set of notes... in front of me" ( ), and says that, at the end, it is RUMORED that he returned to his '1st Master'. If we assume that this is Kreia, then she would have been telling the truth... for once. Hmmm...

Sure. It's right here. I participated heavily in it myself. It's closed now, but referring to it might be enlightening. I think Kreia is Kae, but I would concur with DeathScepter that there is no concrete proof either way. The nay-sayers have not been able to put up an argument against Kreia being Kae that couldn't be questioned, at least not as far as I could tell. Those who do do believe that Kreia is Kae, like myself, have pointed to evidence that supports the theory, but still cannot be called proof. There are a bit too many similarities between Kreia and Kae for me to ignore. Could be coincidence, but as M.r Garak would put it on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is no such thing as coincidences... Only the Force. Yep, that's the topic... There was one before that one that was about as long, but was also closed eventually... It's like the Chinese (no offense, I'm being serious): Rise, fall for a while, rise, and then fall for a while in an era of chaos, rise again, fall, go communist, rise... rise... still rising... Has anybody NOT read the chronicles for KotorII? It tells how Kreia went to M5 after Revan had disappeared, confused and trying to find out what went wrong, maybe even some evidence to allow her to rationalize that his 'fall' was not her fault, but the Jedi's...

But, just a while ago I was 'yelled at' for even suggesting that the no-love idea had been implemented because of the war with Exar Kun, where 'love' caused many deaths, including several Jedi's fall to the Dark Side... Edit: Okay, I've read back a bit, and I think I know where this is going... Anybody remember the thirty-page topic called something like "Kae=...Kreia?" or something like that? I do... *shudder* So, who has any SOLID proof that Kreia is Kae? Personally, I think that she knew Kae... now, whether that knowledge goes down to the state of being Kae, I don't know... I was never really persuaded either way, to tell the truth...

You know... I only get the Silver Lightsaber crystal on plays through that I DON'T intend on using it when I find it...

It is!?!?!?!?!?! (w00t)

So Jolee didn't leave, nor was considered for exiled, for having a wife, just for training her against their decree... That's what I thought... Jedi weren't supposed to not love until after Exar Kun's war, or thereabout...

Well, if I ever had any amount of time to finish a point in one sitting, then I would try to make my point, but I don't so I won't... Quick question: Was it his marriage that Jolee was trying to keep hidden, or was it him training his wife? He never said anything (in my memory) of wanting exiled for being married, but for training somebody in secret, who later killed many Jedi...

She seems as though she has little or no hope for anybody except the Exile... It's almost nauseating (sp? ).

If the Jedi aren't a "cloistered Order," then why didn't they help during the Mandalorian Wars? I know it's just me, but it seemed really ironic that Vandar said that, while five years later, everybody else says exactly the opposite, including Zez-Kai-Ell...

Let's look at a few things: The Jedi before Exar Kun could have families, etc. (although many of those who did were watchmen and not real Jedi living in their cloistered 'monasteries' The Jedi after Exar Kun could not have families. It became HIGHLY frowned upon, even if it was never explicitly stated to be bad.

No, he definitely held it in his hands for a few moments... And, even if he was, what about the other examples I gave?

I hate meatballs w/ my spaghetti...

Hmmm... That's a tough one...

Count Dooku (sp?) shot lightning at him, and Yoda returned it full force... That, and no matter what alignment he is, Kyle Katarn also used Lightning. And, in RoTJ, Luke Skywalker uses Force Choke on the Gamorrean Guards at Jabba's Palace... Need I continue?

You can thank the old comics for that.

Precisely.

The MC??? (Sorry... ) If you are cut off from the Force by others, they do not rip you from its presence: they build a 'wall' around you, so that you still have a connection to it, you just can't manipulate it or use it to any extent whatsoever. The Exile was different, but Kreia and Ulic Qel-Droma were cut off from the Force in a way similar to the above.

That, and the Jedi are often "neutral" in many conflicts, except for a few who usually disobey the Council and take a side that they deem "right". I found another fair example of a grey Jedi... Kyle Katarn. Yet, he's not 'really' grey: He can be good or evil (usually good if you look at the canon).

From their own point of view, sure.

If you look at it from a game-player's point of view. (Qui-Gon was the closest example from the Clone Wars/OT that I could think of... :whistle: )

"There is no "Grey Jedi Order"!!!!!! "Grey Jedi" are Jedi like Qui-Gon or Jolee (Sp? ). They use the Force, and may have, at one point, been Jedi or Sith. Even Bindo used the Light Side. Confront him as the Dark Lord Reborn, and combat will define his true character: He's a Jedi, and he'll never bow down to the Sith, so says he. They still serve a 'side'. "Apathy is death." Even the Grey Jedi robes say how 'Grey Jedi' opperate independently of the Jedi Council, which, by no means, signifies that they are both 'good' and 'evil'. After all, even Yoda, one of the most Light Side Jedi Masters I can think of, can use Force Lightning, should he choose to. It's not what powers you have, but how you use them, that determines your alignment. And, if you want to make the argument that "Grey Jedi" are neutral, then why did the Jedi Council, in almost every instance, choose NOT TO FIGHT, instead of fighting against 'evil' (Mandalorian Wars, etc.). Grey Jedi often choose to fight instead of thinking, which is why they are often considered not to be 'true Jedi', and why they many times use the Dark Side."

Could Kae be one of Kreia's apprentices? She's always complaining about how all of her students were seen as 'failures', and... Ah, well.

*sigh* Really quickly, I have to be argumentative.... There is no GREY SIDE!!!!!!! I'm done...

Anybody have a screenshot?