nightcleaver

I could've sworn I heard something about a big time patch, even improving resolution on the cinematics and such? Not that it'd finish the game, but whatever.

Exactly. I'm not sure why they wouldn't do that. It wouldn't be too hard for someone who doesn't care about Revan to skip that, although it does sort of reduce the importance of your new character to have the creation of Revan as part of the character creation process. Of course, it's not like that wasn't a problem anyway, in more than just something as superficial as that. What bugged me is that almost every other important side plot male NPC I came across used almost exactly the same face I had used for my first Revan.

I basically agree with ShadowPaladin. However, people really do feel cheated, out there, and upset that the game's experience wasn't developed fully - which is definitely something that should be addresssed for the future.

I thought there was going to be a lot more, as well. Why did they think to strip you of the Force? That didn't make any clear sense. Nihilus actually looked pretty crappy, in-game, and considering that I beat him in about ten Seconds flat, first time, highest difficulty, he wasn't very intimidating. I was hoping for Atris to play a larger role. I was hoping for your past to be better explained.

1. The "full potential" argument has been said over and over. I don't think that the result would have been as good as most people imagine it. 2. I think that main character development is more important than NPC development. I don't know about you but the Exile seemed less developed than the NPCs to me. (I finished the game -in DS- without knowing who cut me off from the Force!!) 3. So you didn't like the Revan twist? Don't tell me that Kreia fooled you...... EDIT: Not to mention the fact that K2 is the first game that required a fan-made "restoration" project to fill it's plot gaps..... Thank you LA.... In my mind K2 will be a reference point to poor game design.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. Much as I don't think people should JUST give KotOR II's failure over to a time limit, and thus give them credit for something they don't deserve credit for, it certainly would've been a lot better. It's better to just overlook possibilities, and examine the actual real world product. Maybe I misunderstood this point. 2. No one cut you off from the Force. That you couldn't see that, though, probably is a bad on Obsidian's part. Kreia tried to explain after the confrontation in the Jedi Enclave. 3. Don't tell me you thought Kreia WASN'T supposed to be obvious, to some degree. It's really FAR too easy to attribute disagreements over what plot twists were inadequate to the irrational dislike of "predictability" in a given story. I don't think anyone, when they are inspired to say a story was predictable, means that the story just wasn't new enough. Frankly, it's all been done - what matters is the unique quality of a story that gives it it's character. And really, it's the experience of the story that makes the story unique to a persons mind. If they didn't like it... they probably won't find it unique, that it stands out in their mind.

I believe it would be a matter of adding other prominent points of view, not necessarily taking away that one. Pretty much everything was cast in a similar light to Kreia's philosophy, and that was a complete weakness. Everyone's view of the Force was... off. I was REALLY sick of hearing about "echoes in the Force" by the end of the game. So much potential characterization was destroyed by this mis-placed focus. People who weren't interested in Force philosophy could've just ignored that whole idea, because they would've been like, "Oh, they think that, ok," and moved on without having to face it to understand or care about the game. What I mean is, they wouldn't be "messing with the star wars concept" if they had only put something in to contrast the ideas about the Force they had. Kreia didn't really decide her side at will, though. Her will was consistent throughout; perhaps she was fundamentally evil. Maybe it's just that you want absolute black and white in Star Wars? Meh. In that case, they are "messing with the Star Wars concept". I just don't think black and white is the Star Wars concept.

Ha! I suppose this is how the Jedi Order dies...

I guess I wasn't really very clear. Your character would be remembering - reliving, if you will - the trauma and events of their past, meaning that you would play one character's experiences - maybe a Jedi under Revan. The battles that Revan was in command of are fewer and further in between than the actual number of worlds the Mandalorians brought destruction to. You would take maybe Revan, maybe the Exile, maybe someone else entirely, and develop what happened to them, exactly, in detail, during the Mandalorian wars.

The thing is, she was the ONLY character for story clues. That was a weakness, yes. I didn't really get the feeling that she was the one with all the power, though. The PC was the one with all the power... she was just along for the ride, and put her hopes in you that you would do what she needed you to do. I guess the irony of showing her to be the manipulative "witch" she is, outside of the player's in-character knowledge, separated you more from what happened to the main character. If there hadn't been any actual hints, do you think you wouldn't have had so much trouble with her? After all, there weren't any other party members you could just cast out. Come to think of it, I didn't really like Goto tagging along. He did provide some amusement, but whatever.

360 means a PC conversion would be better.

The only reason I disagree, plano, is that I didn't want to get rid of Kreia, and found her an interesting character. Why did I find her interesting, and not just evil? She was suspicious, I'll grant you... although most of her suspicious activities were behind Exile's back. But yeah. To a certain extent, there will always be a lack of choice in games like this, as long as they try to tell a certain story, I think. I also agree about the choices. The thing is, and this is why I push it about "focus of the story," it wouldn't matter how many choices you had to make, if only they all fit together and made something you could fairly well generalize, or perhaps just organize in your mind so that you could make sense of it, emotionally. But that's just another way to look at it. Either cut out a lot of that excess stuff you bombard the player with, or fit it together so that it makes sense. The thing is, you're right - it was too much in too little space. And they neglected to put much of anything in that you could establish as reference points for the plot.

Guardian bonus for LS is two damage, for darkside it's been 1 and 8. DS gets a higher damage bonus; although the strength does help for critical strikes, DS do more damage on criticals. LS sentinel gets a marginal hitpoint, fortitude save bonus, while DS gets armor and stealth skill bonuses, not to mention their sneak attack does more damage. DS consulars get more Force points, while LS consulars get marginally more force points, plus a small will save/force strength bonus. Mind that LS doesn't deal damage as well. Force Storm, anyone? So, I disagree. It's not unbalanced.

That's odd. Maybe you went over the limit for characters'. I can still play MY first jedi to finish, in any case. And for that matter, my second as well. You didn't use the same name for any of them, did you? Maybe you overwrote your character. You swap characters on the load game screen, correct? And you see your other characters, just no original character, correct?

Regardless, it's getting to the point that the Mandalorian Wars REALLY deserve some sort of explanation. I guess I don't really want a prequel before they make a sequel, either. I have another idea about the prequel, though, that you guys might like better... How about this: a prequel in flashbacks? You visit all the worlds of the Mandalorian wars, and you get to choose what order you visited them, just by virtue of you being the storyteller, and you knowing which battles happened when. Of course, we all know which battle was first and which was last... but there hasn't been any word on the middle, has there? This sets up the structure nicely, anyway. Of course, LA might be skeptical. After all, they told Obsidian, "No Flashbacks!" and look how that turned out. But it would be a way to maintain a focus on a specific time period throughout the game, and also explain what the mandalorian wars were. Because frankly, I don't know, and I'd like to experience them. It's sort of a weird idea. Tell me what you think. About the sequel: A search for Revan would make a good start for the story, I think, but not a good premise. I suspect Game Informer is spreading rumors.

What do mean by a lack of choices? I felt like I had enough choices... there just wasn't a lot of reason to care about them. Does that have anything to do with what you were talking about? ah, but how what they DID make makes you wish for more...

Here's what I say, and i'll say it again: They need to start telling the story from the beginning. Mandalorian wars. Otherwise, we'll just have a weak game, or a game disconnected from the other games, or a game mired in endless flashbacks. Actually, I think flashbacks would be good, as long as they were interactive. Why not? Blah. LA doesn't know anything. Give us flashbacks! What do you say? Maybe a story that shows Revan's past AND the Exile's past? Or one or the other? Being the future Dark Lord might be limiting to your possible actions - although I'm sure there would still be plenty of sandbox to play in.

Well, they didn't give me enough chances to show the game what my character was about then. I would assume that in traditional roleplaying, there would be more. I can pretend I have certain motivations, but without a way to show it to the world, even if it's just my character talking to itself, it seems really silly. It's like, "I want to do this for that reason, but I can't, because the game won't let me." The player really wasn't given enough clay, so to speak, to give the story it's structure, and form the central plotline. That's how I feel about it. Anyway, I don't understand why it is that people seem to dislike the idea of creating their own, not the Developer's, story, in a game? I really liked what little control over the plot I had, and it really got me involved. There just wasn't enough of that, and in so many ways, I was detached from what was happening.

Ok, I had an idea about what I was trying to say at the beginning of the thread: Discussions about KotOR II's plot invariably seem to fall apart. Sometimes the focus is this, sometimes it's that; mirrored in our reactions, I think, is the completeness, or perhaps lack of completeness, of KotOR II's story. No one path of the story seems complete enough to say, "Hey, this is what KotOR II was about." Without being able to really say that, any medium of fiction is lacking. Perhaps the most fundamental focus of the story, the driving motive, was the Exile's pain, and the pain of Malachor. There was a vague plotline encasing everything that happened.... except for the end, in which we found out that plotline didn't actually mean anything, didn't have anything to do with the "real" conflict of the story, being the Exile's pain. Do we share the Exile's pain, though? Do we understand his pain? No. The only way they attempted to show the conflict within the Exile, show us what we were supposed to feel, was incomplete. Perhaps they could've avoided backstory altogether. Actually, I just remembered something about LA's decisions about the story. No flashbacks. And yet, the focus of the story was the echoes of the past. The player is always drawn to ask, "what past?" i mean, sure, I'll take their word that there was one, it's just that I'm not emotionally involved in that aspect, the central aspect of the story. See what I'm saying, everyone? Logically, the story works; but the emotional and/or intellectual involvement, the most important aspect(s) of any work of fiction, video game or novella, are lacking.

Skywalker: I felt the referrences to the exile's past were a little weak; I appreciate the attempt to make the Exile a deeper character, it just wasn't done well. I would've liked more, or none at all. I realize the Exile's past was perhaps just background story, and didn't even need to be there. My only point was that the main conflict of the story was incomplete. It was also a bit more ambitious than the plot of KotOR I. As an aside, addressing other points skywalker made to me: And frankly, romance plots aren't that important to me. I was more concerned with how everything dropped off, arbitrarily, with certain characters, and you could pretty much never talk to them again. They basically died when you trained them to be Jedi; they continued to play a role in the story, perhaps, but most of characters didn't even do that. For so much of the game, it just felt like the NPC's were scripts, and nothing beyond that. I liked ESB. I liked PS: T. I liked a billion stories most people would probably hate for how terribly vague they were. What I'm not certain of is why, then, I find this story a little bit lacking and arbitrary. Also: I guess the idea of backstory is altogether controversial. I would push the point, though, that it's because it's hard to do well - and that what people don't like is incomplete (badly formed) backstory. My primary point from the original post of the thread: KotOR II really depended on the first confrontation with Atris, where the main quest really started. It was explained what happened in the Exile's past would create motive for the rest of the story. I just feel that this motive wasn't well-developed enough, for being the central idea of the story. After all, the Sith Assassins really didn't motivate the story. I remember encountering them three times during the story; Peragus, Dxun, and Malachor. This Force Wound idea was an interesting motive for the story... and it was talked about continuously... it just wasn't explained. Perhaps it can't be explained fully; in that case, it seems like the story is incomplete by virtue of the story's central theme. Or is it?

It seems to me that people aren't getting at the heart of the issue; was KotOR II's story weak or epic? Here I will attempt a mostly impartial analysis of the focus of the plot in KotOR II, and how it was committed: The Exile's past and future: Elaboration is made about what happened to him that led up to the events of KotOR II, his choices about saving individual Republic worlds, his influence over the other character's, his choices concerning what to do with his knowledge of the Jedi Master's. All of that? Wow. What, exactly, IS the driving motive of the story? What does it have to do with what actually occurred in the game? What occurred in the game: The Exile hunted down Jedi Master's; to kill them, to gather them, or to question them. The exile had a good and evil path, more or less, on Nar Shadaa, Dantooine, and Onderon. You end up fighting the Sith Lords. The nature of development: Question's asked of each of the Jedi Master's were almost exactly the same in each instance. Motive for killing the Jedi Master's is unclear, except, perhaps, for revenge. Why not become a great Sith? Why not for power and glory? But these really weren't clear options that were presented in the game. The motive of the main character was NOT portrayed adequately; there were maybe three lines to show the Exile's motivations. The player is, thus, not really as involved with this possible motive as they could be. Getting the Jedi together seemed like a good idea, but those efforts were completely destroyed anyway - and the player is truly no closer to their goal, which also lowers involvement. This wouldn't be so bad, except that the "Wound in the Force" motivation is a little unclear. Interesting, but unclear. What I mean is: why did the Jedi Master's decide to Exile, and eventually truly, cut you from the Force? The reasoning seemed a little obscure. Ultimately, it looks like the Wound in the Force was the villain, the driving motive. But this focus was a rather abstract concept of fantasy - actually, it wasn't deserving of a focus for a Star Wars plot. Why? Not because it wasn't romantic enough, nor that it wasn't melodramatic, and not because it "Just wasn't Star Wars." It's just that the whole concept on which the story is based is sedentary; a plot, in order to technically exist, needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. TSL seems to be a reminscience, a description of the Force, using the happenings of the game as an example. The beginning middle and end almost don't exist, because when it gets down to it, the center isn't the beginning, the middle, or the end - usually, it's only an essay or philosophical paper that turns out like this. It would be fun if it were the other way around, that the action drove the philosophy. Anyone agree with me, or at least see what I mean in those last last few sentences? Thoughts?

I just meant that Jedi can be stealthy, when necessary. In fact, depending on the angle, it's almost more Sith-like to use brute force in place of wit. At least, that's how it was portrayed in the Star Wars series I saw. It wouldn't be like a Jedi to assassinate, or cause someone harm without chance of surrender. I'm sure Jedi can make exceptions to even that rule, though, from time to time, without completely falling to the darkside. Anakin's fall was certainly a long journey, and so was, I assume the fall of the Jedi under Revan during the Mandalorian wars. It seems to me, judging from just what I've seen of how Star Wars is portrayed, that a fall goes fairly well along the lines of what any average human being would fall to being evil. There are just more reasons to fall- magical reasons to fall, through the Force.

Well, according to some official un-official sources, a lightsaber that is visible beyond the normal spectrum is possible. Say, a UV lightsaber. Various crystals can be pushed to different ends of the spectrum in one lightsaber, so it may just be possible. UV is technically a color, after all; just not a visible one. I'd offer the source, but the website just so happens to be down. It was somehow connected to the Simming Force website. It had referrences to official sources in many places throughout the site; I didn't look really carefully. Because, frankly, it didn't much matter at the time. Oh, and if stealth is bad for a Jedi... and means falling to the dark side... well, I guess that makes Ben a dark lord. It also makes Luke a dark lord. It's all in the usage.

It's sort of funny how it works out; when I play KotOR I, I miss TSL. When I play TSL, I miss KotOR I. For all that it gets criticised, for all its problems, I like the influence system. I like the idea that the things you say matter to those around you, that you can make them like you more or less. Even just having the points, corresponding to negative or positive reactions, of course, gives the NPC's a little more life. But at times - well, most of the time, actually - the influence system effectively trivialized social interaction by making it a game of 'how can I make them talk to me?" which is, actually, a bit different from, "How can I make them trust me?" People are actually fairly open about talking to stranger's, in real life, but in K2 no one would dare talk about the weather unless they agreed with your decisions and sides taken for the political situation in Onderon. If you want them to talk about the weather, and much as it helps moral ambiguity, it hurts the game in how much less you are given to care about your fellow NPC's. Perhaps the influence system would've worked better in a longer game? It just seemed like there wasn't enough time for you to get to know your party members, and that was one of my favorite things in the first game. When I play K1, I miss T3's buzzing around and fixing things on the Ebon Hawk, I miss Bao Dur's tinkering with the droids, I miss Kreia's pestering, and I just miss all the people from the second cast. When I play K2, I wish I could just sit down and talk with one of my NPC follower's, but it really just becomes a burden to even try, so I miss K1. The influence system really made Kreia come alive; with how much she had to say, you were constantly learning more from her and about her, and just about every single effort to earn her favor was well-rewarded. It just didn't work that well with the other character's - in particular, Atton rand, Handmaiden, Bao-dur, and to a certain extent, the droids. KotOR I was a little formulaic, and your interactions with them had nothing to do with what you actually did with them. But couldn't there be a combination of both? Of being able to small-talk, and being able to share experiences on a deeper level? I only hope NWN 2 doesn't fall into the same trap KotOR2 did.

Paladin - I agree. Myself, I don't like the CGI yoda at all, for some reason. Just doesn't seem like a real character to me. GL was trying to fit two movies into one. Anakin's fall didn't... feel right. The romance still doesn't fit, either. It's no wonder Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan without remorse later on, when his "old friend" leaves him to die like that. It would've made more sense if Obi-Wan had at least TRIED to end his misery, somehow... I mean, heck, that could've added more drama. "Anakin is dead," he tells Padme. They go off, it seems like the movie's about to end, it turns out anakin still lives when the emperor shows up. Sort of a, "when is dead, dead?" moment.