Rogues need way more utility

[Infiltrator_SF]

I would first like to say that the stealth revamp and the vision cone in deadfire is miles ahead of what we had in PoE1. The system helps a lot in making rogues and sneaking more immersive, and backstabbing is an actual thing now unlike in the previous game where it was basically an afterthought. 

 

That said, I think rogues here have another problem - too many similar skills.

 

Hobbling strike, Blinding strike, Strike the Bell, Finishing Blow, Withering Blow, Sap, Gambit and Vanishing Strike. That's 8 attack abilities not counting the various upgrades for most of them. I'm pretty sure most players don't need them, and some are pretty much wasted space by the time you get to them (why would you ever use sap).

 

You might say how it gives rogues options, but not really, most of these work pretty much the same and are boring in effect, with the exception of finishing blow and vanishing strike. Gambit single-handedly trivializes any kind of choice once you unlock it. But if you nerf gambit then you're just forced to use a combination of the other strikes.

 

If you ask me, we should drastically reduce the damage of some of the strikes (strike the bell, sap, withering blow for example)  give them some sort of utilitary role, or replace them completely. Sap could stun the target but do 10% damage. Put in rogue-specific poisons that are more effective, cheap or can be used per-encounter like poison that lowers stats, armor, defenses or fighting capabilities of stricken targets. Put in skills that promote gun/sword combos. For example a Ranged or Melee attack that does not have recovery as long as you used the opposite weapon before it.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm late to the party when it comes to these suggestions, but maybe for a bigger patch or expansion there's hope.

[RocketChaser]

As a rogue player I generally disagree. I don't want to be a Swiss army knife, I want to be a bazooka. It's what I'm there for.

 

If you want utility, it's what the multi class system is for.

 

There are already plenty of support classes, the rogue is the best single target dps and it should probably stay that way.

 

I dislike other RPGs that have taken the "every class can perform every role" approach, it defeats the point of having class variety in the first place.

 

Of course that's really all just my opinion.

[whiskiz]

"Sap could stun the target but do 10% damage"

 

Wow, complete game altering change right there.

 

[Infiltrator_SF]

As a rogue player I generally disagree. I don't want to be a Swiss army knife, I want to be a bazooka. It's what I'm there for.

 

If you want utility, it's what the multi class system is for.

 

There are already plenty of support classes, the rogue is the best single target dps and it should probably stay that way.

 

I dislike other RPGs that have taken the "every class can perform every role" approach, it defeats the point of having class variety in the first place.

 

Of course that's really all just my opinion.

 

Alright

 

1. you are advocating FOR having 4-5 abilities that basically do the same thing? That's not wasted space or potential in your mind?

 

2. While you certainly are free to hate on the class roles in other games, what I suggested is nothing like the swiss army knife you are implying. With my suggestions, they would still have no aoe, no healing.

 

Just my thoughts

[lonelornfr]

My thoughts exactly. I'm currently doing a run with Eder as a single class rogue, and i kinda wish he had more options than A. Hit like a truck or B. Use an ability and hit like a freight train.

 

I can't say rogues are in a bad position right now, they have one job and they're very good at it (maybe too much so), but it would be nice to have other options available.

[Juodas Varnas]

I played a Trickster rogue and it was pretty fun with the few Illusion spells, smoke bombs, the escapes and pommel-strikes

Edited May 15, 2018 by Juodas Varnas

[Witness41920]

As a fellow lover of Rogues, I'll weigh in.

 

I think you've pointed to a symptom rather than the core of the problem. The problem, as I perceive it, is that Rogues have more-or-less no identity in Pillars of Eternity apart from damage dealers. The things that normally separate a Rogue from other classes in similar games is the utility they bring to the table outside of combat.

 

For example, Rogues are usually identified as the ones who specialize in picking locks, disarming/dismantling traps and observing their surroundings for secret passageways and other hidden objects. In Pillars of Eternity every class can perform any or all of these functions while Rogues get no bonuses to them (other than starting skill point bonuses). Rogues are also usually the ones that play around with explosive devices (such as grenades, noise makers, flash bombs, smoke bombs, etc) and other "trinkets" (including magical ones) but Rogues don't even get the "Explosives" skill as a class skill in Pillars of Eternity, that honor goes the Fighter.

 

I could expound further but the point is that the "identity" of the Rogue is not present in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Instead Rogues are single-target damage dealers. The debuffs they apply are meant to increase their damage output rather than actually control or disable opponents because of the way "sneak attack" works in Pillars of Eternity. For this reason, a lot of a Rogue's kit feels like simply recycling the same couple of abilities under a different name because ultimately you're using them all for the same reason - to increase damage through sneak attack.

 

Fixing this problem would unfortunately require a remodeling of the entire game system, not just the Rogue class, because the identity of the Rogue would need to be established as something other than "single target damage dealer" and that would require designing the class to have utility unique to itself which would simultaneously change the structure and design of other classes and the skill system.

[CAlmond]

I played a Trickster rogue and it was pretty fun with the few Illusion spells, smoke bombs, the escapes and pommel-strikes

 

 

Off topic, not sure why but I read that as "pommel bike"

 

On topic, I find that with rogues and physical attackers in general I rarely go for active abilities and instead focus on passive buffs. I didn't even notice that most of those skills are samey.

[Infiltrator_SF]

As a fellow lover of Rogues, I'll weigh in.

 

I think you've pointed to a symptom rather than the core of the problem. The problem, as I perceive it, is that Rogues have more-or-less no identity in Pillars of Eternity apart from damage dealers. The things that normally separate a Rogue from other classes in similar games is the utility they bring to the table outside of combat.

 

For example, Rogues are usually identified as the ones who specialize in picking locks, disarming/dismantling traps and observing their surroundings for secret passageways and other hidden objects. In Pillars of Eternity every class can perform any or all of these functions while Rogues get no bonuses to them (other than starting skill point bonuses). Rogues are also usually the ones that play around with explosive devices (such as grenades, noise makers, flash bombs, smoke bombs, etc) and other "trinkets" (including magical ones) but Rogues don't even get the "Explosives" skill as a class skill in Pillars of Eternity, that honor goes the Fighter.

 

I could expound further but the point is that the "identity" of the Rogue is not present in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Instead Rogues are single-target damage dealers. The debuffs they apply are meant to increase their damage output rather than actually control or disable opponents because of the way "sneak attack" works in Pillars of Eternity. For this reason, a lot of a Rogue's kit feels like simply recycling the same couple of abilities under a different name because ultimately you're using them all for the same reason - to increase damage through sneak attack.

 

Fixing this problem would unfortunately require a remodeling of the entire game system, not just the Rogue class, because the identity of the Rogue would need to be established as something other than "single target damage dealer" and that would require designing the class to have utility unique to itself which would simultaneously change the structure and design of other classes and the skill system.

 

You are right that anyone can do the things you basically need a rogue for in most other games, D&D and otherwise. I think that restricting skills to classes might be a step in the right direction when it comes to that issue. Mechanics for example should be reserved to rogues, ciphers and rangers.

[youspoonybard]

 

As a fellow lover of Rogues, I'll weigh in.

 

I think you've pointed to a symptom rather than the core of the problem. The problem, as I perceive it, is that Rogues have more-or-less no identity in Pillars of Eternity apart from damage dealers. The things that normally separate a Rogue from other classes in similar games is the utility they bring to the table outside of combat.

 

For example, Rogues are usually identified as the ones who specialize in picking locks, disarming/dismantling traps and observing their surroundings for secret passageways and other hidden objects. In Pillars of Eternity every class can perform any or all of these functions while Rogues get no bonuses to them (other than starting skill point bonuses). Rogues are also usually the ones that play around with explosive devices (such as grenades, noise makers, flash bombs, smoke bombs, etc) and other "trinkets" (including magical ones) but Rogues don't even get the "Explosives" skill as a class skill in Pillars of Eternity, that honor goes the Fighter.

 

I could expound further but the point is that the "identity" of the Rogue is not present in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Instead Rogues are single-target damage dealers. The debuffs they apply are meant to increase their damage output rather than actually control or disable opponents because of the way "sneak attack" works in Pillars of Eternity. For this reason, a lot of a Rogue's kit feels like simply recycling the same couple of abilities under a different name because ultimately you're using them all for the same reason - to increase damage through sneak attack.

 

Fixing this problem would unfortunately require a remodeling of the entire game system, not just the Rogue class, because the identity of the Rogue would need to be established as something other than "single target damage dealer" and that would require designing the class to have utility unique to itself which would simultaneously change the structure and design of other classes and the skill system.

 

You are right that anyone can do the things you basically need a rogue for in most other games, D&D and otherwise. I think that restricting skills to classes might be a step in the right direction when it comes to that issue. Mechanics for example should be reserved to rogues, ciphers and rangers

Disagree with skills restrictions. Skills in general are in a really good spot at the moment.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the strikes complaints, but you cannot leave out Persistent Distraction when talking about utility. Or the ability to position yourself around the battlefield, or essentially take yourself off the battlefield with invisibility.

 

Sap is a Primary attack; it's best used on 2H rogues. I prefer Fast/Fast myself.

[lonelornfr]

Fixing this problem would unfortunately require a remodeling of the entire game system, not just the Rogue class, because the identity of the Rogue would need to be established as something other than "single target damage dealer" and that would require designing the class to have utility unique to itself which would simultaneously change the structure and design of other classes and the skill system.

 

 

While i agree with the lack "rogue identity" concept you explained, you could certainly give deadfire rogues some more diversified combat skills without a total revamp of the class/skill system. As it is, you could get crippling strike / blinding strike, one invis skill and then nothing but passive skills until gambit.

Now i only played Eder as a rogue so i don't know much about the subclass.

[Enoch]

 

As a fellow lover of Rogues, I'll weigh in.

 

I think you've pointed to a symptom rather than the core of the problem. The problem, as I perceive it, is that Rogues have more-or-less no identity in Pillars of Eternity apart from damage dealers. The things that normally separate a Rogue from other classes in similar games is the utility they bring to the table outside of combat.

 

For example, Rogues are usually identified as the ones who specialize in picking locks, disarming/dismantling traps and observing their surroundings for secret passageways and other hidden objects. In Pillars of Eternity every class can perform any or all of these functions while Rogues get no bonuses to them (other than starting skill point bonuses). Rogues are also usually the ones that play around with explosive devices (such as grenades, noise makers, flash bombs, smoke bombs, etc) and other "trinkets" (including magical ones) but Rogues don't even get the "Explosives" skill as a class skill in Pillars of Eternity, that honor goes the Fighter.

 

I could expound further but the point is that the "identity" of the Rogue is not present in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Instead Rogues are single-target damage dealers. The debuffs they apply are meant to increase their damage output rather than actually control or disable opponents because of the way "sneak attack" works in Pillars of Eternity. For this reason, a lot of a Rogue's kit feels like simply recycling the same couple of abilities under a different name because ultimately you're using them all for the same reason - to increase damage through sneak attack.

 

Fixing this problem would unfortunately require a remodeling of the entire game system, not just the Rogue class, because the identity of the Rogue would need to be established as something other than "single target damage dealer" and that would require designing the class to have utility unique to itself which would simultaneously change the structure and design of other classes and the skill system.

 

You are right that anyone can do the things you basically need a rogue for in most other games, D&D and otherwise. I think that restricting skills to classes might be a step in the right direction when it comes to that issue. Mechanics for example should be reserved to rogues, ciphers and rangers.

 

Avoiding this was a deliberate design goal.  It leads you to bad places.  If you balance classes against each other, in general, you get a Rogue who is a combat liability that the party has to drag around for locks/traps duty (a.k.a., the classic D&D thief).  If you balance the classes against each other for combat specifically, the super-skill class is too good.  And if you try to do both, and give exclusive reign over other skills to different classes (Fighters get athletics, Wizards get Arcana, etc.), you greatly disincentivize player creativity in party construction. 

 

Indeed, there are good arguments that Obsidian didn't go far enough in divorcing Skills from Class.  I probably would enjoy the system more if, say, backgrounds were stronger (or you get to pick more than one), and the skill bonuses associated with Class were removed. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Enoch

[Witness41920]

You could definitely revamp the skills without revamping the entire game system. I was merely stating that giving the Rogues their 'identity' back would require a revamp. The Rogue is not in a bad spot in terms of combat capability and effectiveness, they're just kind of a bland "damage dealer" only class and there's no real way to change that, even if you change the skills up a bit because ultimately you're still going to use them for the same reason - to increase damage with sneak attack. It's the only class feature the Rogue has that no one else has. 

[Witness41920]

Avoiding this was a deliberate design goal.  It leads you to bad places.  If you balance classes against each other, in general, you get a Rogue who is a combat liability that the party has to drag around for locks/traps duty (a.k.a., the classic D&D thief).  If you balance the classes against each other for combat specifically, the super-skill class is too good.  And if you try to do both, and give exclusive reign over other skills to different classes (e.g., Fighters get athletics, Wizards get Arcana, etc.), you greatly disincentivize player creativity in party construction. 

 

Indeed, there are good arguments that Obsidian didn't go far enough in divorcing Skills from Class.  I probably would enjoy the system more if, say, backgrounds were stronger (or you get to pick more than one), and the skill bonuses associated with Class were removed.

Valid point that I hadn't considered, I appreciate the feedback.

[RocketChaser]

 

As a rogue player I generally disagree. I don't want to be a Swiss army knife, I want to be a bazooka. It's what I'm there for.

 

If you want utility, it's what the multi class system is for.

 

There are already plenty of support classes, the rogue is the best single target dps and it should probably stay that way.

 

I dislike other RPGs that have taken the "every class can perform every role" approach, it defeats the point of having class variety in the first place.

 

Of course that's really all just my opinion.

Alright

 

1. you are advocating FOR having 4-5 abilities that basically do the same thing? That's not wasted space or potential in your mind?

 

2. While you certainly are free to hate on the class roles in other games, what I suggested is nothing like the swiss army knife you are implying. With my suggestions, they would still have no aoe, no healing.

 

Just my thoughts

I don't particularly agree that they all do the same thing.

 

How are an interupt, a blind, a hobble and a finishing move the same thing?

 

They're all melee attacks on a melee class but otherwise they all add different debuffs that have different tactical advantages and may be more or less applicable to different opponents.

 

And I'm not "hating" on anything (come on, we're both adults, let's not descend to that level) but I'm happy that support classes have utility and damage classes do damage and I'm not particularly sure I'd agree we need to see any saturation of that dynamic.

 

What you're advocating is giving rogues less moves that deal tidy damage and more "misc", I just don't particularly agree is all.

 

I'm not really trying to convince you, so much as offer a contrasting opinion.

Edited May 15, 2018 by RocketChaser

[lonelornfr]

 

 

As a rogue player I generally disagree. I don't want to be a Swiss army knife, I want to be a bazooka. It's what I'm there for.

 

If you want utility, it's what the multi class system is for.

 

There are already plenty of support classes, the rogue is the best single target dps and it should probably stay that way.

 

I dislike other RPGs that have taken the "every class can perform every role" approach, it defeats the point of having class variety in the first place.

 

Of course that's really all just my opinion.

Alright

 

1. you are advocating FOR having 4-5 abilities that basically do the same thing? That's not wasted space or potential in your mind?

 

2. While you certainly are free to hate on the class roles in other games, what I suggested is nothing like the swiss army knife you are implying. With my suggestions, they would still have no aoe, no healing.

 

Just my thoughts

I don't particularly agree that they all do the same thing.

 

How are an interupt, a blind, a hobble and a finishing move the same thing?

 

They're all melee attacks on a melee class but otherwise they all add different debuffs that have different tactical advantages and may be more or less applicable to different opponents.

 

And I'm not "hating" on anything (come on, we're both adults, let's not descend to that level) but I'm happy that support classes have utility and damage classes do damage and I'm not particularly sure I'd agree we need to see any saturation of that dynamic.

 

What you're advocating is giving rogues less moves that deal tidy damage and more "misc", I just don't particularly agree is all.

 

I'm not really trying to convince you, so much as offer a contrasting opinion.

 

 

 

They still do the same thing : increase damage. It's not like you use blinding strike just for the blind debuff then move on to another target. Instead you will use crippling strike or blinding strike, depending on the target defense, to increase your damage then finish your target off. The actual debuff doesn't matter as long as it let you hit really hard (and interrupt as an added benefit).

 

Now strike the bell and sap both interrupt on a graze instead of a hit, so i guess that makes them a little bit different but that's not much.

[Sarakash]

You could definitely revamp the skills without revamping the entire game system. I was merely stating that giving the Rogues their 'identity' back would require a revamp. The Rogue is not in a bad spot in terms of combat capability and effectiveness, they're just kind of a bland "damage dealer" only class and there's no real way to change that, even if you change the skills up a bit because ultimately you're still going to use them for the same reason - to increase damage with sneak attack. It's the only class feature the Rogue has that no one else has. 

 

In my opinion, Rogues are in a good spot right now regarding their combat skills and utility. Furthermore, even if this sounds a bit nit-picky, I d argue if you replace bland with pure, you have your identity for Rogues in combat: A pure physical damage dealer with high mobility, zipping around the battlefield and killing off high priority targets.

 

Apart from combat I have to admit that I never liked the way D&D handles classes. Your Rogue would just become a skill monkey. I much prefer systems - in pen&paper RP and in CRPGs which don´t limit the player in that regard. Makes no sense to me either, but I guess this comes down to preference.

 

Regarding the melee skills I agree with Rocketchaser. Apart from enemy resistances to certain types of afflictions, there are reasons for using different skills depending on the situation. You are missing penetration ? Crippling strike might be your best bet for overcoming armor or even reach overpenetration. You want to deny healing ? Then withering strike becomes an option. You want to set up a DoTs ? Gauging strike + Ring the bell has you covered.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Sarakash

[Elerond]

 

 

 

As a rogue player I generally disagree. I don't want to be a Swiss army knife, I want to be a bazooka. It's what I'm there for.

 

If you want utility, it's what the multi class system is for.

 

There are already plenty of support classes, the rogue is the best single target dps and it should probably stay that way.

 

I dislike other RPGs that have taken the "every class can perform every role" approach, it defeats the point of having class variety in the first place.

 

Of course that's really all just my opinion.

Alright

 

1. you are advocating FOR having 4-5 abilities that basically do the same thing? That's not wasted space or potential in your mind?

 

2. While you certainly are free to hate on the class roles in other games, what I suggested is nothing like the swiss army knife you are implying. With my suggestions, they would still have no aoe, no healing.

 

Just my thoughts

I don't particularly agree that they all do the same thing.

 

How are an interupt, a blind, a hobble and a finishing move the same thing?

 

They're all melee attacks on a melee class but otherwise they all add different debuffs that have different tactical advantages and may be more or less applicable to different opponents.

 

And I'm not "hating" on anything (come on, we're both adults, let's not descend to that level) but I'm happy that support classes have utility and damage classes do damage and I'm not particularly sure I'd agree we need to see any saturation of that dynamic.

 

What you're advocating is giving rogues less moves that deal tidy damage and more "misc", I just don't particularly agree is all.

 

I'm not really trying to convince you, so much as offer a contrasting opinion.

 

 

 

They still do the same thing : increase damage. It's not like you use blinding strike just for the blind debuff then move on to another target. Instead you will use crippling strike or blinding strike, depending on the target defense, to increase your damage then finish your target off. The actual debuff doesn't matter as long as it let you hit really hard (and interrupt as an added benefit).

 

Now strike the bell and sap both interrupt on a graze instead of a hit, so i guess that makes them a little bit different but that's not much.

 

 

I use them also to decrease enemy's ability to strike back, like for example Blinding Strike (blinded gives -10 to accuracy) or Debilitating Strike (distracted gives -5 to per [aka -5 to accuracy] with bonus that enemy gets also flanked status) are good initial strike abilities as they not only let your rogue do more damage but also ensure that enemies are less effective in striking back.

 

But you can also use them just for debuffs in multiclass builds like Spellblade (rogue/mage) and Mindstalker (rogue/cipher) in order to make you spells work better, like for example to use eliminating blow for initial strike in order to debuf enemies resolve as it gives shaken enemies around the initial target, making it easier to dominate them etc.

[lonelornfr]

Well i'm playing on veteran ATM so i don't know how much harder enemies are to kill on POTD difficulty, but in my playthrough i honestly don't care much about the "debilitating" element of the strike, they get interrupted and they will be dead 2 seconds later anyway, there's not much they will be able to do in that laps of time.

 

Your point about multiclass rogue may have some merit tho, especially on POTD with the increased defense (and hp ?).

[urosdot]

hehe you get deep Pockets for utility!!!! what more do you want? sory i had too...

 

Well looks like your all missing on the  rogue - thief  feeling when you play them... sadly  shady reputation is a bit of a bust in that regard same as skills as pointed... anyone can get them....

 

Maybe we need a stronghold quest like in BG2 or  class only oriented quest.... to bring out that shady  devious sneaky feeling you all want and need?

Edited May 15, 2018 by urosdot

[flamesium]

I think the Rogue passives make a lot of great multiclasses.

 

As for actives, Confounding Strike is a useful utility skill. Gouging Strike too if you have a ranger in the party.

 

A junior version of Whispers of the Wind which temporarily lowers Armour instead of doing damage would be a fun addition.

[oaklei]

Someone already beat me to it, but if you want to play a rogue with utility, isn't that exactly what the Trickster is all about? Also, the rogue strikes don't all do the same thing, there are a lot of debuffs to keep track of in POE, but they are tangibly different.