Come on summon weapon is too weak

[nstgc]

I've seen summoned weapons mentioned in a few places, and I love summoning my own armory -- buffs for defense and conjured weapons. While the defensive buffs look great, I'm disappointed with the conjured weapons; at least the ones at the top and bottom rungs (Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff and Citzal's Enchanted Armory).

 

For level 1 spells I want to cast Spirit Shield so I don't die or interrupted. That leaves one casting left. If I have a choice, I'd rather choose Eldritch Aim or Arcane Assault. The former has the same cast time as CPS, and the former has a short cast time and a 4s CD, but dazes and deals raw damage in an AoE. The staff itself scales up to, I'm guessing, the top tier quality enchantment (fine, exceptional. . .) and has some mysterious health drain that doesn't seem to actually do much (20% of melee damage as health, which isn't actually explained). The healing granted by the staff is less than the damage prevented by other means. It can be argued that at higher levels you won't be using the other level 1 spells, however there is still the cast time. This can be sped up by 25%, but 15% of that is from a separate ability that you'd have no use for if you aren't summoning weapons.

 

Kolokath's Minor Blight (minor? there is only one spell like it) is definitely useful. If you're going to need/want to change to another weapon anyway (ineffective due to armor/immunity), you may as well cast this. Citzel's Spirit Lance is also nice due to its AoE. The thing with the staff is it brings, effectively, a defensive buff to the table, but it is the worst possible option. The only reason I can think of to cast it is if you are a ranged (normal) wizard and find yourself suddenly in melee and. . .want to hit things. No, even then I can't think of its use.

 

If this was a pen and paper game I'd absolutely take the spell since so much can go wrong; DMs aren't restricted to game engines, and you can find yourself without weapons or armor. But this isn't a P&P game where you need to be prepared to everything.

 

As for Citzel's Enchanted Armory, I haven't looked at it too closely, but it seems lack luster. I don't intend on playing a pure wizard so I don't really care.

 

It may be my perspective is wrong. I'm looking at this from two angles. First, the melee caster I'm making (Soul Blade + general wizard) which is simultaneously tanky and squishy (yeah, not sure how that happened), and the other is as someone who has played traditional casters for a long time in all kinds of games (ARPGs, CRPGs, P&P RPGs, TBS, RTS, and yes you can play with a caster's mind set in strategy games). So perhaps there is some alternate mind set that I'm missing. Or perhaps some detail.

Edited May 12, 2018 by nstgc

[dunehunter]

Why did Josh say they are very powerful? Specifically considering all the cool new loot we got in-game.

Edited May 13, 2018 by dunehunter

[nstgc]

First off: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98587-concelhauts-parasitic-staff-worthuse-for-it/

 

My thread also talking about this.

 

I don't know how good later game gear is (my current game is badly bugged, plus I'm waiting for them to fix the import bugs before making a new game) but I can say there is a case for the Citzel's Lance, and the K's Minor Blight. I'm pretty sure the Warding Staff is also decent, but I haven't looked in to it in any real depth.

 

my biggest complaint is the cast time. I'd rather spend the 3 seconds doing ANYTHING ELSE in most cases.

 

edit: Also, poking around inside the bundles, it looks like it will be a total pain in the ass to mod this game vs PoE1.

Edited May 12, 2018 by nstgc

[AndreaColombo]

Citzal's Armory is a joke (a cool-looking joke, but still a joke.)

 

I agree the Spirit Lance and the Blights have their use, though the casting time should be 0.5s (been saying this since the beta.)

[MadDemiurg]

Lance and blights are ok but they should really be an instant cast. Change +15% summon weapon cast speed to a damage or an accuracy buff with them as well, it's a joke.

Edited May 12, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Logos]

why Josh said they are very powerful? Specially with all the cool gears we got in game.

 

In a subject verb object questioning sentence, you get a form of 'do' before the subject. And after a use of do/does/did, you always get the infinitive. So 'say', in this case. 

 

-> "Why did Josh say they are very powerful? Specifically considering all the cool new loot we got in-game."

Edited May 12, 2018 by Logos

[nstgc]

Citzal's Armory is a joke (a cool-looking joke, but still a joke.)

 

I agree the Spirit Lance and the Blights have their use, though the casting time should be 0.5s (been saying this since the beta.)

I'm not sure about a half second cast time. As mentioned, the spell can take the place of a weapon swap out (at the expense of potentially awesome weapons, and a spell slot). Certainly 2s is the far end of useful for anything other than fringe cases. Even then, it still would mostly be better to do something else. Given the number of wizard spells you can learn, fringe cases isn't good enough.

Edited May 12, 2018 by nstgc

[Boeroer]

 

why Josh said they are very powerful? Specially with all the cool gears we got in game.

 

In a subject verb object questioning sentence, you get a form of 'do' before the subject. And after a use of do/does/did, you always get the infinitive. So 'say', in this case. 

 

-> "Why did Josh say they are very powerful? Specifically considering all the cool new loot we got in-game."

 

Seriously? 

[Logos]

 

 

why Josh said they are very powerful? Specially with all the cool gears we got in game.

 

In a subject verb object questioning sentence, you get a form of 'do' before the subject. And after a use of do/does/did, you always get the infinitive. So 'say', in this case. 

 

-> "Why did Josh say they are very powerful? Specifically considering all the cool new loot we got in-game."

 

Seriously? 

 

 

I'm not a native speaker of English, and I've been posting on internet forums since 2002, since bioware's Neverwinter Nights boards came out. I tell people about do/does/did because it makes my reading experience more pleasant. I don't care about them, I don't care about anyone else, I only care about what I read. Nothing is as bad as entering a server and having everyone speak Russian or Polish. If you're gonna have a go at it in English, I might as well help you. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Logos

[SamOftheUels]

Are summoned weapons really that bad?

 

I finally thought I had figured my build out after hours since launch -

 

well guess I'll spend another week trying other **** - FFS

[nstgc]

 

 

why Josh said they are very powerful? Specially with all the cool gears we got in game.

 

In a subject verb object questioning sentence, you get a form of 'do' before the subject. And after a use of do/does/did, you always get the infinitive. So 'say', in this case. 

 

-> "Why did Josh say they are very powerful? Specifically considering all the cool new loot we got in-game."

 

Seriously? 

 

Her post came across as pedagogic to me. *shrug*

Are summoned weapons really that bad?

 

I finally thought I had figured my build out after hours since launch -

 

well guess I'll spend another week trying other **** - FFS

 

Yes. I go into detail as to why at least the Parasitic staff is so bad, but you don't need to dump your whole build. Use the build, but also use normal weapons. That's what I had to do as well. I planned on using light or no armor plus buffs and only summoned weapons, but reality dashed that out the window. The rest of the build, however, is quite fun.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/97800-hierophant-advice-wizardsoul-blade-or-beguiler/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98587-concelhauts-parasitic-staff-worthuse-for-it/

[SamOftheUels]

I really wanted to play a char as Similar to Erza Scarlet (from Fairy Tail) as I could get - Hence, Conjuration Wizard - But, dreams dashed I spose with a bit of Gambit Flair Thrown in.

 

Dreams dashed I spose.

 

@nstgc - which build would you be referring to that's okay with normal weps?

 

Might get round to playing teh game at some point

[nstgc]

I really wanted to play a char as Similar to Erza Scarlet (from Fairy Tail) as I could get - Hence, Conjuration Wizard - But, dreams dashed I spose with a bit of Gambit Flair Thrown in.

 

Dreams dashed I spose.

 

@nstgc - which build would you be referring to that's okay with normal weps?

 

Might get round to playing teh game at some point

The one I linked to. No part of my melee caster build REQUIRES summoned weapons so I just do with out them. I just wanted them because the concept is awesome.

Edited May 12, 2018 by nstgc

[JerekKruger]

Agreed. Compared to the unique weapons in the game most summonable weapons are just plain bad. I have no idea how Josh could believe that they were pretty powerful.

 

... I can say there is a case for the Citzel's Lance, and the K's Minor Blight. I'm pretty sure the Warding Staff is also decent, but I haven't looked in to it in any real depth.

 

 

I agree on the Spirit Lance and the Minor Blights, although given just how good unique gear is I think even they are of dubious worth.

 

However unless I made a mistake with my testing I can say the Warding Staff is garbage. When you cast it it does a point blank AoE push back/knock down, but after that it's just a scaling quarterstaff with no other special properties. The weapon itself is strictly worse than the Parasitic Staff. So unless you really value the AoE knock down it's a complete waste of a high level cast.

[AndreaColombo]

That I know of, the warding staff should also keep pushing enemies away upon hit. If it's not doing that, it's probably a bug?

[nstgc]

Agreed. Compared to the unique weapons in the game most summonable weapons are just plain bad. I have no idea how Josh could believe that they were pretty powerful.

 

... I can say there is a case for the Citzel's Lance, and the K's Minor Blight. I'm pretty sure the Warding Staff is also decent, but I haven't looked in to it in any real depth.

 

 

I agree on the Spirit Lance and the Minor Blights, although given just how good unique gear is I think even they are of dubious worth.

 

However unless I made a mistake with my testing I can say the Warding Staff is garbage. When you cast it it does a point blank AoE push back/knock down, but after that it's just a scaling quarterstaff with no other special properties. The weapon itself is strictly worse than the Parasitic Staff. So unless you really value the AoE knock down it's a complete waste of a high level cast.

It also gives deflection. I think?

[mammasaura]

Don't think changing the cast time is going to improve the usage of the summoning weapons because will still remain the issue about "why should I use a conjuring weapon over my current best weapon". Add the fact all these spells already have a 0 recovery time, I hardly believe obsidian will touch these spells in that regard.

I should prefer to see some effect attached to them, in order to make their situational usage a reliable asset during the battle.
Make them able to detonate or sacrificed in some sort. For example, the firebrand can be consumed to cast a fireball or maybe, to empower a fire spell; citzal's spirit lance into something similar to a weaker minoletta's piercing burst; etc...
Or you can add some properties of your current weapon to the summoned weapon.
Aoe buff/debuff while casting?

There are many way to improve the conjuring weapons, and some can be interesting, I hope this will be the direction.

Edited May 13, 2018 by mammasaura

[Takkik]

The weapon could get one unique ability too, like for druide spirit form.

If only there was a spell that allow you to mark/enchant some weapons (hight cost) and with a 'generic' summon weapon spell you can choose one of the marked weapon (or armor?) and summon it from your stash in your hand(s). Wizard quick switch!

[ppscurry]

I don't understand how summoned weapons are anything but weak. The effects on unique weapons are just too strong. Veil Piercer refreshes your recovery the moment you crit once you pick up that enchantment. Can a summoned bow ever beat that?

[JerekKruger]

That I know of, the warding staff should also keep pushing enemies away upon hit. If it's not doing that, it's probably a bug?

 

 

It also gives deflection. I think?

 

My bad, I must not have looked/tested that carefully.

[nstgc]

Don't think changing the cast time is going to improve the usage of the summoning weapons because will still remain the issue about "why should I use a conjuring weapon over my current best weapon". Add the fact all these spells already have a 0 recovery time, I hardly believe obsidian will touch these spells in that regard.

 

I should prefer to see some effect attached to them, in order to make their situational usage a reliable asset during the battle.

Make them able to detonate or sacrificed in some sort. For example, the firebrand can be consumed to cast a fireball or maybe, to empower a fire spell; citzal's spirit lance into something similar to a weaker minoletta's piercing burst; etc...

Or you can add some properties of your current weapon to the summoned weapon.

Aoe buff/debuff while casting?

 

There are many way to improve the conjuring weapons, and some can be interesting, I hope this will be the direction.

 

 

I don't understand how summoned weapons are anything but weak. The effects on unique weapons are just too strong. Veil Piercer refreshes your recovery the moment you crit once you pick up that enchantment. Can a summoned bow ever beat that?

 

 

I'm not looking for something that can replace weapons. I don't think it would be too much to ask for high end uniques as summon weapons, but since I'm not a power-player (min-maxer or whatever) it isn't a big deal if its merely serviceable. Currently the weapons aren't only inferior to non-summoned weapons, but they take up a spell usage, a class ability pick, and 3s of combat. So you are wasting multiple resources just to get your hands on something that is  mediocre.

[tinysalamander]

Nothing is as bad as entering a server and having everyone speak Russian or Polish.

Интернет вообще штука опасная ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[marc5477]

 

Don't think changing the cast time is going to improve the usage of the summoning weapons because will still remain the issue about "why should I use a conjuring weapon over my current best weapon". Add the fact all these spells already have a 0 recovery time, I hardly believe obsidian will touch these spells in that regard.

 

I should prefer to see some effect attached to them, in order to make their situational usage a reliable asset during the battle.

Make them able to detonate or sacrificed in some sort. For example, the firebrand can be consumed to cast a fireball or maybe, to empower a fire spell; citzal's spirit lance into something similar to a weaker minoletta's piercing burst; etc...

Or you can add some properties of your current weapon to the summoned weapon.

Aoe buff/debuff while casting?

 

There are many way to improve the conjuring weapons, and some can be interesting, I hope this will be the direction.

 

 

I don't understand how summoned weapons are anything but weak. The effects on unique weapons are just too strong. Veil Piercer refreshes your recovery the moment you crit once you pick up that enchantment. Can a summoned bow ever beat that?

 

 

I'm not looking for something that can replace weapons. I don't think it would be too much to ask for high end uniques as summon weapons, but since I'm not a power-player (min-maxer or whatever) it isn't a big deal if its merely serviceable. Currently the weapons aren't only inferior to non-summoned weapons, but they take up a spell usage, a class ability pick, and 3s of combat. So you are wasting multiple resources just to get your hands on something that is  mediocre.

 

I am in the same boat. I want to use the summoned stuff just to do something different. My 1st game I tried a 2h monk/wizard and was insanely disappointed with the summoned stuff. They take too long to summon and they dont last that long. Also by using them, I am denying myself important combat buffs and a lot of defense. I ended up remaking him as a plain 2 weapon focus and skipped the summoned weapons and he was much more powerful.

 

I think the author is right. They need to be near instant cast or leave the cast time alone and give them a much longer duration. Perhaps even the entire current battle or until switched.

 

The only nice thing about them is they offer alternative damage types without the need for more weapon slots. I can remain unarmed in one slot, use some other weapon/s in the 2nd slot and the summoned stuff can fill the gaps if I face something that is vulnerable to them. But otherwise I cant imagine using them.

[nstgc]

I'm hoping, now that someone actually made a new item, we will start getting item and abilities mods. Turns out those bundles are JSON files.

[nstgc]

Posted in the wrong topic. Sorry. Don't know how to delete my own post.

Edited May 14, 2018 by nstgc