Companions and Romance

[arober]

 

I also love the "pandering" argument.

 

Every time it doesn't pander to YOU, it's suddenly "pandering".

 

Interesting. Real interesting. 

 

(and naturally I am not referring to you with this post.) (really, I am not.) (I keep adding more things because it comes off sarcastic when I'm actually being honest.)

 

I don't know what you mean by pandering but I perceive it as devs trying to please everybody - they don't want to see people going mad when some character isn't eligible for romance because the player chose the wrong sex and race. 

 

And how is that bad? I enjoy playing as a male and romancing any male in my party. I also enjoy playing a female and romancing any female. Sometimes I even enjoy playing a male and romancing a female. If everyone's available, and you're not restricted in your choice, you have more options. And options are good.

 

For the longest time only the straights were given any options. A little pandering is alright in my book.

[Ryz009]

The demonization of pandering bothers me because at the end of the day the game is made to sell. Pandering to an extent only helps that. Now no one is saying something should pander so much it's nothing but fanservice but fan service being in a product isn't some strange alien concept. A vast majority of products want their audience to like it and buy more of it that's just how marketing works. Its why you get but sex sells. and so on.

 

Romance is just one facet of that. Putting in improbable armor but it looks good and players like it is another.

 

It like most things are fine in moderation. It's not like the whole game is nothing but fanservice.

[Mikeymoonshine]

The realism argument I don't get but then I am lgbt so I guess I struggle to relate to a "there are too many gays in this piece of media!" kinda thing. Like ok sure lets assume that bisexual people are as rare as in the real world (which is probably not as rare as a lot of straight people seem to think). That doesn't mean that any specific group of people are going to be representative of statistics based on the entirity of society. Four bi people just happening to be on the same boat is not some statistical impossibility. It's unlikely but unlilkely things happen all the time. Apparently all these characters were made bi by their writers and there wasn't any kind of sexuality quota. That's unlikely too but it happened.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Mikeymoonshine

[Aramintai]

Ugh, you guys are arguing just for the sake of arguing trying to nitpick at every word, knowing exactly what I meant to say at the beginning. But I'll repeat it again - it's just my opinion, you have all the rights to have yours. No, I don't like this trend where majority of companions are LGBT and don't care about any race restrictions just for the sake of trying to please everybody, it's very jarring and looks weird even for a fantasy world. But I'm not against some of them being LGBT and not caring about race restrictions. 

 

Anyway, it's a shame we're fighting over this instead of discussing how cool POE2 companions are, because they aren't unfortunately being rather shallow, buggy and coldly calculated by dispositions.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Aramintai

[Zack Fair]

 

Such a shame that Obsidian did not write well defined characters. I'm not saying that this makes the game bad, but I think having characters that will jump on you nomatter what sex and race you are is just lazy writing. Or pandering, I don't know which one is worse.

 

And I think it's nice I don't have to play through the entire game as an elven female to see the Solas romance. I'd rather be able to romance him with a dwarf male as well. It's fiction. Let the fictional people be without sexual preferences. There are more interesting things about them than who they bang.

 

Of course this is just a matter of one's preference, but I think it is just the opposite. It is much more interesting to have well defined character. Which is more interesting and nuanced? Having all the NPCs romancable disregarding the players sex and race...or having a gay orlan, a bisexual elf, a straight dwarf etc, and you actually have to play different characters in  the game who can form a relationship with these different characters? Having everybody romancable is just immersion breaking, it's like those NPCs are just walking sextoys. Good writing means that you actually believe that these are actual characters in this fantasy world.

 

As for having to play the game multiple times to unlock all romance options? First, this is an RPG, which warrants several playthroughs. Second, nobody is forcing you to unlock all the romance options. But if your aim in the game is to unlock every romance in one playthrough...well, I don't know what else could I say to you, the current setup is just good for you.

[frogmoth]

I must say i find what i've read about how the relationships and romances in this game work really disturbing.

You get a new NPC in your party and after a short time after barely learning to know this NPC he starts to hit on you. You can choose if you accept or you decline.

Is this impression an exaggeration? Is there no slow building up of a relationship with the NPCs over time? Do they have content other than content connected with being a love interest for the PC?

[Ryz009]

Uh most people don't even finish the game once let alone replay it.

 

Hell I replay games and I don't replay them for a romance that I was restricted from. If I don't want to play a certain character a romance (which usually is about half an hour of content) is not going to make me replay a 40+ hour game as a PC I don't wanna play. That argument always was iffy at best to me. Like if I want to see the romance that badly I'll watch it on youtube.

 

I'm more likely to replay to side with another faction, or play another personality type, bring around other companions, different class, so on. I tend to romance the same exact characters if anything. I remember rolling my elf for Solas and then going straight to Bull xD well I tried.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ryz009

[Aramintai]

I must say i find what i've read about how the relationships and romances in this game work really disturbing.

You get a new NPC in your party and after a short time after barely learning to know this NPC he starts to hit on you. You can choose if you accept or you decline.

Is this impression an exaggeration? Is there no slow building up of a relationship with the NPCs over time? Do they have content other than content connected with being a love interest for the PC?

It's definitely a bug. But unfortunately devs are still unwilling to confirm any bugs related to the relationship system.

[arober]

Of course this is just a matter of one's preference, but I think it is just the opposite. It is much more interesting to have well defined character. Which is more interesting and nuanced? Having all the NPCs romancable disregarding the players sex and race...or having a gay orlan, a bisexual elf, a straight dwarf etc, and you actually have to play different characters in  the game who can form a relationship with these different characters? Having everybody romancable is just immersion breaking, it's like those NPCs are just walking sextoys. Good writing means that you actually believe that these are actual characters in this fantasy world.

 

As for having to play the game multiple times to unlock all romance options? First, this is an RPG, which warrants several playthroughs. Second, nobody is forcing you to unlock all the romance options. But if your aim in the game is to unlock every romance in one playthrough...well, I don't know what else could I say to you, the current setup is just good for you.

 

For what it's worth - I'm not talking about romancing everyone in one playthrough. Rather just having the option to romance anyone.

 

And the idea of a gay orlan is no more appealing to me than a bi/pan orlan. I'd rather have the characters be non-romanceable on the basis of their personality/your behavior. 

 

Restricting characters makes sense - sometimes. To go to the Inquisition well once again: Solas being romanceable by an elf only - makes perfect sense. His being straight - not really, to the point of actually being weird, considering who he actually is. Dorian being gay - absolutely fine, that's what his story is (it'd still work if he were bi, but whatever, I'll roll with it. But Dorian, for example, not being into elves would be nonsensical. 

 

My point is - I like having options. But I'm fine with it if others don't. I don't play games to romance NPCs, that's just bonus. And I'm not gonna boycott a game because a character in it is straight/bi/gay/non-romanceable. That would be silly of me.

[Aridea]

Hmm not to start bashing BW romances, but I felt like their quality progressively went downhill in the past years. Maybe its me who grew up, but I feel like the themes and nature of romance had deteriorated, Andromeda for example seemed like a bad fan fiction written by a 15-year old. I did like Morrigan, but I always play females so I stuck with Alistair/Zevran. 

I never finished DAI and no I did not like Solas romance, I quit after first conversation because it turned your character into spinelss and because I could not stand the guy. But I digress.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with companion preferences here, and I am not sure its fair to equate who they sleep with with how nuanced they are. If anything I am glad there are 4 options that can satisfy people of all preferences. Companions being attracted to either genders just makes me feel they are attracted to human/elven/orlan/dwarf/amaua beings rather than gender and race. I kinda like it.

Tekehu likes everything that moves, but mostly beautiful and powerful individuals, Maia likes resourceful and someone who can get stuff done, Xoti is messed up and clings to everyone, Serafen is not picky, and Aloth is Aloth (I don't think he even considers the possibility, judging by how closed off and insecure he is). Its like they have so many things in their heads that gender/race are the least of their worries.

They are all very distinct and nuanced as individuals though, with their own quirks, problems, and mental issues.

 

As for real life. To me, sexuality always felt more fluid than what appeared on the outside. All the restrictions came mainly from restrictions in our societies than anything else. Ancient Romans were largely bisexual for example. So I would not say its that unbelievable.

 

 

 

I must say i find what i've read about how the relationships and romances in this game work really disturbing.

You get a new NPC in your party and after a short time after barely learning to know this NPC he starts to hit on you. You can choose if you accept or you decline.

Is this impression an exaggeration? Is there no slow building up of a relationship with the NPCs over time? Do they have content other than content connected with being a love interest for the PC?

 

 

 

I think its just the matter of toning down how much approval you get from various skills. I got this with Maia. I went to the Oathbinder's sanctum after I got her, and did ONE scripted interaction that she approved of. And immediately she comes up to me "Hey Watcher" eyebrows wagging and Hylea cheering in the background. I don't mind - Maia is awesome, but turning her down was a bit of a bummer.

On the other hand people that were with you the longest could use higher boosts. Eder, Aloth, Pallegina all have difficulty gaining approval. I'd think the friends that stuck with you for so long, were near death so many times before and covered each other's back, those that you helped solve their issues, would be more predisposed towards your character.

 

 

 

For what it's worth - I'm not talking about romancing everyone in one playthrough. Rather just having the option to romance anyone.

 

 

 

And the idea of a gay orlan is no more appealing to me than a bi/pan orlan. I'd rather have the characters be non-romanceable on the basis of their personality/your behavior. 

 

Restricting characters makes sense - sometimes. To go to the Inquisition well once again: Solas being romanceable by an elf only - makes perfect sense. His being straight - not really, to the point of actually being weird, considering who he actually is. Dorian being gay - absolutely fine, that's what his story is (it'd still work if he were bi, but whatever, I'll roll with it. But Dorian, for example, not being into elves would be nonsensical. 

 

My point is - I like having options. But I'm fine with it if others don't. I don't play games to romance NPCs, that's just bonus. And I'm not gonna boycott a game because a character in it is straight/bi/gay/non-romanceable. That would be silly of me.

 

 

 

To be honest I much prefer when the character's sexuality does not become their defining attribute. I'd rather explore their problems and mental states than care about who they bang. Which is why I find these romances more natural, as in they care about the being and not the outward shell. I don't need a whole line of long quests and strings to love the romance, just interesting character and their storyline. For example, Atton in KOTOR2 was my most favorite thing ever, even though he was the one trying to romance the female Exile and all you could do was be completely oblivious to it. He barely had any interactions and yet still he was more interesting to me than for example Carth (if we go into Star Wars). 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Aridea

[Mari]

 

 

 

Destroys any sense of disbelief for the characters that express attraction to multiple races to be attracted to a PC of multiple races? Really? How does that work? Especially given one of them's an Orlan to begin with and the other's a godlike?

Their dense concentration in one place is what's jarring. It's a very tired argument in all recent BW games - why are there so many bi & gay people in your party? You can try arguing that it's a fantasy game, but actually it's not normal for any fantasy world, just for player party, it seems  . Because recent BW games resemble pandering date sims wrapped in fantasy settings more than anything else. Too bad POE2 went the same way and it's not because of lack of money, it's because they chose to:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173771124776/before-deadfires-release-you-said-that-every

 

 

The party that's filled with 2 godlikes (these are supposed to be rare), freed slaves, a priestess that captures souls in her lantern? Like you do realize your PCs party is made of exceptions to the rule right? So all these rare people on the boat is fine...til they're sexualities aren't straight. *Then* its an issue? Also judging from the brothels it doesn't look like there's any stigmatizing of sexuality so why wouldn't people be more open about it in the Deadfire? 

Godlikes, priestesses and all the other unique stuff of that world doesn't bother me as much because it is truly fantastical, without any parallels in the real world, so it is easy to suspend my disbelief about that. Everybody being LGBT around meis not, because in the real world it is not and I can't help by make parallels when I play. That's why it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Also, brothel is a poor example because it's a brothel - a place where people satiate any kinds of sexual desires for money. It doesn't mean hosts there are LGBT, it's just their job.

 

But whatever, as I've said before, it's a very tired argument with no resolution. If you're ok with all that then good for you, I'm certainly not gonna judge your preferences.

 

 

I hate to break it to you honey, but in real life most LGBT ppl do hang out with other LGBT people. Most of my social circle, for instance, is not straight. I'm sorry that you think 4 bisexuals in a group is more unbelievable than dragons or fireballs. That sounds more like a you problem then an issue with the game.

 

As for "pandering" I gotta roll my eyes. The same ppl who cry about everyone being bi are the same people who didnt care that BG2 was pandering to straight dudes when they had 3 options for males and 1 option for women (and no options for gays). When was the outrage then? 

 

I'm glad Obsidian decided to make everyone bi. To me it always makes sense, cuz then it gives the PLAYER more options.  

Edited May 13, 2018 by Mari

[Ryz009]

Hmm not to start bashing BW romances, but I felt like their quality progressively went downhill in the past years. Maybe its me who grew up, but I feel like the themes and nature of romance had deteriorated, Andromeda for example seemed like a bad fan fiction written by a 15-year old. I did like Morrigan, but I always play females so I stuck with Alistair/Zevran. 

I never finished DAI and no I did not like Solas romance, I quit after first conversation because it turned your character into spinelss and because I could not stand the guy. But I digress.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with companion preferences here, and I am not sure its fair to equate who they sleep with with how nuanced they are. If anything I am glad there are 4 options that can satisfy people of all preferences. Companions being attracted to either genders just makes me feel they are attracted to human/elven/orlan/dwarf/amaua beings rather than gender and race. I kinda like it. Tekehu likes everything that moves, but mostly beautiful and powerful individuals, Maia likes resourceful and someone who can get stuff done, Xoti is messed up and clings to everyone, Serafen is not picky, and Aloth is Aloth (I don't think he even considers the possibility, judging by how closed off and insecure he is). Its like they have so many things in their heads that gender/race are the least of their worries. 

As for real life. To me sexuality always felt more fluid than what appeared on the outside. All the restrictions came mainly from restrictions in our societies than anything else. Ancient Romans were largely bisexual for example. So I would not say its that unbelievable.

 

Andromeda wasn't made by BioWare merely one of those studios EA slapped the Bioware label on. They made that trash Omega dlc that was buggy as hell too why EA decided to give them a game to work on when they couldn't handle a dlc is anyone's guess.

 

Agreed on Solas romance though. Makes the PC a doormat. I stick to Bull and Cullen rarely. Mostly Bull though because unnnf that size difference between him and femelf PC.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ryz009

[arober]

Also - as a gay person, with lots of LGBT friends: trust me, we're not all that nuanced and sophisticated and complicated. Nobody really gives a crap. Our stories are not about being LGBT. Our lives don't revolve around that. We don't come out at the right time and in the right way. Our LGBT-ness does not really contribute all that much to our overall plot. At some point everyone just kinda gets over it. Our existence is not about political correctness. I don't see why Tekehu or Maia would talk about their bisexuality any more than Pallegina talks about her skin color.

 

Because that isn't the point. 

[Mikeymoonshine]

I was gonna make the fact that lgbt people tend to gravitate towards each other argument as well but I felt it was perhapse a tad unfair as the party didn't form based on those reasons.

[Mikeymoonshine]

Also - as a gay person, with lots of LGBT friends: trust me, we're not all that nuanced and sophisticated and complicated. Nobody really gives a crap. Our stories are not about being LGBT. Our lives don't revolve around that. We don't come out at the right time and in the right way. Our LGBT-ness does not really contribute all that much to our overall plot. At some point everyone just kinda gets over it. Our existence is not about political correctness. I don't see why Tekehu or Maia would talk about their bisexuality any more than Pallegina talks about her skin color.

 

Because that isn't the point. 

 

I do kinda hate this notion that we do this "I'M GAY LOOK AT ME" thing tbh. Like I don't talk about it irl much at all, I am still kind of afraid to tbh you never know how a person will react. I don't bring it up at work, I don't with most of the straight people I associate with. I don't even talk about it much around friends and family who know.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Mikeymoonshine

[Ryz009]

Really though I think the reason there's not a lot of character discussion is because the bugs.

 

Like I can't even get Aloth's conversations to trigger so how can I discuss his romance?

[Aramintai]

I hate to break it to you honey, but in real life most LGBT ppl do hang out with other LGBT people. Most of my social circle, for instance, is not straight. I'm sorry that you think 4 bisexuals in a group is more unbelievable than dragons or fireballs. That sounds more like a you problem.

LGBTs attract?  Well, I guess that's why I don't have any in my social circle. But if my player character is not LGBT why should he\she be like a magnet to LGBTs?

 

 

I'm glad Obsidian decided to make everyone bi. To me it always makes sense, cuz then it gives the PLAYER more options.  

Aand we're back again to companions being player sexual  . Because I agree, all the options are for you. Their background being bi is just so you can choose whomever you like with either gender. There's no need to explain or justify it, it is what it is - pandering for profit.

[Ryz009]

 

I hate to break it to you honey, but in real life most LGBT ppl do hang out with other LGBT people. Most of my social circle, for instance, is not straight. I'm sorry that you think 4 bisexuals in a group is more unbelievable than dragons or fireballs. That sounds more like a you problem.

LGBTs attract?  Well, I guess that's why I don't have any in my social circle. But if my player character is not LGBT why should he\she be like a magnet to LGBTs?

 

 

I'm glad Obsidian decided to make everyone bi. To me it always makes sense, cuz then it gives the PLAYER more options.  

Aand we're back again to companions being player sexual  . Because I agree, all the options are for you. Their background being bi is just so you can choose whomever you like with either gender. There's no need to explain or justify it, it is what it is - pandering for profit.

 

 

*blinks slowly*

 

You realize this game was kickstarted right?

 

What the hell do you think they did for that?

 

So many kickstarters are the definition of pandering to an audience. What did you expect?

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ryz009

[arober]

 

Also - as a gay person, with lots of LGBT friends: trust me, we're not all that nuanced and sophisticated and complicated. Nobody really gives a crap. Our stories are not about being LGBT. Our lives don't revolve around that. We don't come out at the right time and in the right way. Our LGBT-ness does not really contribute all that much to our overall plot. At some point everyone just kinda gets over it. Our existence is not about political correctness. I don't see why Tekehu or Maia would talk about their bisexuality any more than Pallegina talks about her skin color.

 

Because that isn't the point. 

 

I do kinda hate this notion that we do this "I'M GAY LOOK AT ME" thing tbh. Like I don't talk about it irl much at all, I am still kind of afraid too tbh you never know how a person will react. I don't bring it up at work, I don't with most of the straight people I associate with. I don't even talk about it much around friends and family who know.

 

Because we come in all the colors of the rainbow (heeeeeey!). 

 

For example, I talk about dudes all the time. When the straight coworkers talk about their dating life, why should I not? I don't consider it talking about my gayness, I consider it talking about my life. 

 

But that's me. You do you, boo, and stay safe.

 

But also I work with a relatively small group of people and quite a large percentage of them are openly LGBT. I have other LGBT friends, none of whom I met in an LGBT space. 

 

The point is: four bi people on a ship? Puh-leaze. The fact that Aloth carries his big-ass grimoire in his pocket is less realistic than that.

[Aramintai]

You realize this game was kickstarted right?

 

What the hell do you think they did for that?

 

So many kickstarters are the definition of pandering to an audience. What did you expect?

 

Nothing, I'm glad I wasn't expecting much from POE2 romances. Not really surprised or disappointed by the lack of effort. And all the pandering is for profit - commercial companies don't work for charity and they'll do anything to get a customer. 

[Mikeymoonshine]

So the dialogue is bugged too? I've had no option to flirt with anyone other than Tekehu so far anyway.  In fact I have exhausted everyone's dialogue. I assumed they would have more to say later.

[Ryz009]

So the dialogue is bugged too? I've had no option to flirt with anyone other than Tekehu so far anyway.  In fact I have exhausted everyone's dialogue. I assumed they would have more to say later.

 Yeah affinity or whatever they call it is super bugged. I can't get Aloth above zero.

[Yria]

I can't get Aloth above zero.

 

I've just managed to finally move Aloth from zero... to -1. Yay I guess. At least now I know he is not bugged for me. But honestly, why does he hate everything and everyone this time around? 

[frogmoth]

 

I must say i find what i've read about how the relationships and romances in this game work really disturbing.

You get a new NPC in your party and after a short time after barely learning to know this NPC he starts to hit on you. You can choose if you accept or you decline.

Is this impression an exaggeration? Is there no slow building up of a relationship with the NPCs over time? Do they have content other than content connected with being a love interest for the PC?

It's definitely a bug. But unfortunately devs are still unwilling to confirm any bugs related to the relationship system.

 

I really hope this is true. Another reason to wait for bugfixing... sad...

[Aridea]

 

So the dialogue is bugged too? I've had no option to flirt with anyone other than Tekehu so far anyway.  In fact I have exhausted everyone's dialogue. I assumed they would have more to say later.

 Yeah affinity or whatever they call it is super bugged. I can't get Aloth above zero.

 

 

This is so weird... I am playing passionate/clever/kind character who becomes serious and takes responsibility when its required, but basically making jokes of everything. Aloth is pro Leaden Key and he is at 1 approval for me. Definitely must be a bug, or a way you pursue your conversations. I can't shake the feeling there is something hidden there beyond obvious alignment approvals.

 

 

 

So the dialogue is bugged too? I've had no option to flirt with anyone other than Tekehu so far anyway.  In fact I have exhausted everyone's dialogue. I assumed they would have more to say later. 

 

 

 

Maia was extremely quick for me as well. I found her approval goes up fast if you pass the survival checks, sometimes bribing, and dialogue options like "I can take care of myself". She likes something called "resourcefulness" but dislikes you helping and being pro-Huana.

Xoti I'd assume starts if you get things like "hug her" in the dialogues, or "wipe the dirt from her face". I never clicked on those so she never hit on my char, not yet at least.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Aridea