Which player paladin order would support animancy the most?

[omgFIREBALLS]

 

 

 

None, animancy is a threat to the gods much like natural philosophy was a threat to Christianity. No paladin would take up animancy as a cause. 

 

However, a monk with a heretical philosophy might take up the cause of animancy if he believed that the practice and studies of animancy advanced both spiritual and societal advancement.

Just a historical point. Christianity wasn't anti-natural philosophy. They were in fact large funders (the biggest at several points) of it and much the the technology and science of Europe saved during the Middle Ages was by priests and monks. The church vs science thing came after the time period poe is roughly set in. Of course the Pillars gods want knowledge hidden

 

Not all of them. The only ones that make a huge deal about it as a general thing are Wael and Ondra. The others mostly just don't want it known they're animantic constructs and some are willing to risk that knowledge spreading simply because it's in their nature to do so (Abydon, Galawain, Magran).

 

I don't know Magran seemed pretty on board with Woedica's plan. You may be right about the other two though. Abydon is progress right and wanted to save the Engwithans? (though that may have just been because he liked old traditions) I don't know enough about Galawain.

 

Galawain supports it because animancy is a hunt for answers. Abydon supports it because knowledge enables improvement, and improvement is the goal of kith in his eyes. That's how I remember it anyway, but Magran's stance is a blank page to me.

[The Sharmat]

 

 

 

None, animancy is a threat to the gods much like natural philosophy was a threat to Christianity. No paladin would take up animancy as a cause. 

 

However, a monk with a heretical philosophy might take up the cause of animancy if he believed that the practice and studies of animancy advanced both spiritual and societal advancement.

Just a historical point. Christianity wasn't anti-natural philosophy. They were in fact large funders (the biggest at several points) of it and much the the technology and science of Europe saved during the Middle Ages was by priests and monks. The church vs science thing came after the time period poe is roughly set in. Of course the Pillars gods want knowledge hidden

 

Not all of them. The only ones that make a huge deal about it as a general thing are Wael and Ondra. The others mostly just don't want it known they're animantic constructs and some are willing to risk that knowledge spreading simply because it's in their nature to do so (Abydon, Galawain, Magran).

 

I don't know Magran seemed pretty on board with Woedica's plan. You may be right about the other two though. Abydon is progress right and wanted to save the Engwithans? (though that may have just been because he liked old traditions) I don't know enough about Galawain.

 

My personal impression of the Magran/Woedica alliance was that it was a very brief alliance of convenience where Magran was used as a patsy by Woedica, fooled into thinking Eothas' entire agenda was an invasion of the Dyrwood, which Magran saw as her personal playground. When she found out what was actually going on it was too late and she had to cover up the Godhammer'd mess. I could be totally wrong and I fully expect more light (heh) to be shed on the entire Saint's War debacle in Deadfire. (In fact personally I suspect Eothas WANTED to be killed, like Durance speculates at one point, but that's another topic...)

 

Abydon is the god of industry and was also the god of preservation (and may yet be again depending on your choices). Improvement through craft and labor is in his nature, and as independent as the Gods are they can't seem to totally override their initial purpose. The whole "preservation" aspect of his portfolio also means he can't stand for any discovered knowledge to ever be wiped out, even at the possible cost of his own life.

 

Magran is the Goddess of Fire, War, and significant for our purposes here: Revolution. Kith discovering and altering their very natures through animancy is, again, something she has to support, as it's the most fundamental revolution imaginable.

 

Galawain supports animancy as has been said, because the search for knowledge is another hunt.

Edited April 25, 2018 by The Sharmat

[Skazz]

Galawain supports animancy as has been said, because the search for knowledge is another hunt.

 

See now, this has been mentioned a couple of times, and I'm somewhat sure Galawain himself explains this during Council of Stars, but the more I think about it, the more this bugs me.

 

I mean, when you consider the nature of the gods, and all the self-preservation checks and balances built into their being... isn't Galawain's sponsorship of animancy something of a contradiction?

 

We know that the Eoran pantheon was created with obfuscation of truth in mind, with Wael being the chief offender here. We also know that their ideologies and behavioral patterns were

pre-programmed by the Engwithans. As such, doesn't Galawain seem like a huge design flaw that endangers the entire system from the get-go?

 

Maybe I'm thinking of Eora's gods too much in terms of kinda-sorta fantasy AI/complex soul programs, but I've always been under the impression that the gods cannot outgrow their makers' parameters.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Skazz

[Fiaryn]

 

 

 

 

None, animancy is a threat to the gods much like natural philosophy was a threat to Christianity. No paladin would take up animancy as a cause. 

 

However, a monk with a heretical philosophy might take up the cause of animancy if he believed that the practice and studies of animancy advanced both spiritual and societal advancement.

Just a historical point. Christianity wasn't anti-natural philosophy. They were in fact large funders (the biggest at several points) of it and much the the technology and science of Europe saved during the Middle Ages was by priests and monks. The church vs science thing came after the time period poe is roughly set in. Of course the Pillars gods want knowledge hidden

 

Not all of them. The only ones that make a huge deal about it as a general thing are Wael and Ondra. The others mostly just don't want it known they're animantic constructs and some are willing to risk that knowledge spreading simply because it's in their nature to do so (Abydon, Galawain, Magran).

 

I don't know Magran seemed pretty on board with Woedica's plan. You may be right about the other two though. Abydon is progress right and wanted to save the Engwithans? (though that may have just been because he liked old traditions) I don't know enough about Galawain.

 

My personal impression of the Magran/Woedica alliance was that it was a very brief alliance of convenience where Magran was used as a patsy by Woedica, fooled into thinking Eothas' entire agenda was an invasion of the Dyrwood, which Magran saw as her personal playground. When she found out what was actually going on it was too late and she had to cover up the Godhammer'd mess. I could be totally wrong and I fully expect more light (heh) to be shed on the entire Saint's War debacle in Deadfire. (In fact personally I suspect Eothas WANTED to be killed, like Durance speculates at one point, but that's another topic...)

 

Abydon is the god of industry and was also the god of preservation (and may yet be again depending on your choices). Improvement through craft and labor is in his nature, and as independent as the Gods are they can't seem to totally override their initial purpose. The whole "preservation" aspect of his portfolio also means he can't stand for any discovered knowledge to ever be wiped out, even at the possible cost of his own life.

 

Magran is the Goddess of Fire, War, and significant for our purposes here: Revolution. Kith discovering and altering their very natures through animancy is, again, something she has to support, as it's the most fundamental revolution imaginable.

 

Galawain supports animancy as has been said, because the search for knowledge is another hunt.

 

 

One quibble here: I think you're severely underestimating the Goddess of War if you think she was the patsy in the arrangement with Woedica. If anything I'd say Woedica was the one being used, look at how things unfolded: Magran gets to effectively assassinate her theological rival Eothas and come out smelling like roses. Then she just turns on Woedica when the opportunity presents itself. Seems pretty tactical to me.

[The Sharmat]

A fair point. We'll have to see how things shake out. Maybe the ol' whore made out. Particularly if the Watcher made the pact with her triumvirate.

 

Galawain supports animancy as has been said, because the search for knowledge is another hunt.

 

See now, this has been mentioned a couple of times, and I'm somewhat sure Galawain himself explains this during Council of Stars, but the more I think about it, the more this bugs me.

 

I mean, when you consider the nature of the gods, and all the self-preservation checks and balances built into their being... isn't Galawain's sponsorship of animancy something of a contradiction?

 

We know that the Eoran pantheon was created with obfuscation of truth in mind, with Wael being the chief offender here. We also know that their ideologies and behavioral patterns were

pre-programmed by the Engwithans. As such, doesn't Galawain seem like a huge design flaw that endangers the entire system from the get-go?

 

Maybe I'm thinking of Eora's gods too much in terms of kinda-sorta fantasy AI/complex soul programs, but I've always been under the impression that the gods cannot outgrow their makers' parameters.

 

I get the impression they were supposed to counter each other with Woedica as the final override to keep everything going as planned. The system has clearly gone off the rails, which is why Thaos is scrambling to amend it by boosting Woedica (possibly back to pre-burned-by-Magran status?)

[Skazz]

I get the impression they were supposed to counter each other with Woedica as the final override to keep everything going as planned. The system has clearly gone off the rails, which is why Thaos is scrambling to amend it by boosting Woedica (possibly back to pre-burned-by-Magran status?)

 

Huh. I haven't thought of it that way, but that's a great point. It certainly makes sense given the in-game information we're given:

 

- the gods obey their internal laws to the point of absurdity

- Woedica is the goddess of all law

- at the same time, Woedica doesn't play by the rules herself and is seemingly the only goddess to behave like this

 

Makes sense for her to be the override for the system.

[JerekKruger]

As such, doesn't Galawain seem like a huge design flaw that endangers the entire system from the get-go?

 

Could very well be. It may be that the gods were designed around preexisting mythical gods so perhaps they designed Galawain the way he is because that's the way he was in their mythology, and they didn't think through the possible outcomes of doing so.

[The Sharmat]

It could also be that a lot of the problems are simply due to divergence. The gods have rules and governing impulses like any intelligence, but they are still independent intelligence  of vast scope and powers that have existed for over two thousand years. They're bound to have learned and grown in ways that were impossible to foresee for their architects. Their original architects may have understood this possibility, in which case Thaos' plan may have been the kind of thing that was always on the table. Keep one of the original animancers around to watch the whole system and occasionally nudge it back on the right course, as they saw it.

 

If that is the case, I almost wonder if Woedica was happy to no longer need him around. The Watcher as a replacement is far preferable. Nowhere near Thaos' experience and completely lacking in any understanding of the principles on which the Gods actually work. Their relationship with Woedica would be far more lopsided than Thaos' own relationship with her.

[Skazz]

The gods have rules and governing impulses like any intelligence, but they are still independent intelligence  of vast scope and powers that have existed for over two thousand years. They're bound to have learned and grown in ways that were impossible to foresee for their architects.

 

But... do we know that for sure? Are gods really capable of learning, improving, and thinking for themselves?

 

I'm not sure what the proper term to apply here would be, especially in the context of discussing these apparent deficiencies of the gods (sapience?), but there's something very odd and uncanny valley-ish about the talk with Ondra in WM2. You can poke holes and dismantle the justifications for her ludicrous plan(s) piece by piece, and all she has to offer is an answer that amounts to "no u"? To an extent, the same could be said about Pallegina's conversation with Hylea. I mean, what?

 

There's also the fact that - if I remember correctly - if you reforge Abydon with no strings attached and he comes back with all the memories and knowledge he had at the time of his demise, the ending makes it clear that he basically repeats history. All of that despite him knowing what had caused his fall in the first place, and the price the world ultimately paid/could pay for it. Is that really the behavior of someone who is capable of learning? The only way to make him improve is to "temper" him, and that's just the Watcher playing around with Abydon's godly wires.

 

I could be misinterpreting things, but whenever there's a chance to converse with a god on an equal footing, it always seems to come off like a chat with Cleverbot. But maybe that's just me.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Skazz

[The Sharmat]

Humans will do the same thing in certain situations. Being aware and learning doesn't mean you're infinitely aware and capable of infinite self modification. Besides, Abydon did nothing wrong. You call repeating a chain of events that could ultimately lead to his death glitching, I call it noble.

Edited April 27, 2018 by The Sharmat

[Skazz]

I don't see Abydon's actions as noble at all, or groundbreaking for a god in any way. To me, he was merely fulfilling the directives of his Engwithan "programming" - the fact that it involved getting his body in the way of a small moon is irrelevant as this was something he has literally been built to do. He moved to act out his portfolio of preservation and chose the only means appropriate to achieve this goal. It may have very well been a completely automatic response - and if so, does that really qualify as noble? Can white cells be called noble?

 

Were it any other god (Eothas doesn't count) sacrificing themselves for humanity, with a completely different sphere of influence, I'd agree with you. But in the case of Abydon, it seems like it was almost business as usual.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Skazz

[Madscientist]

My opinion about that:

- Thousands of years ago people kiled each other in the name of this god or another. ( like today )

- The engwithans researched this and came to the conclusion that gods do not exit.

- They thought that the absence of gods is reason for most bad things in the world and they started to find a way to create gods.

- Finally their research was successful and they created the gods as manifestation of ideals of a perfect society. ( They sacrificed tons of people to create gods, so much for the theory that gods prevent violence. )

- The people who created the gods ( Thaos among them ) wanted to spread the new religion ( because they thought it sysbolizes the perfect society ) and they wanted to hide the fact that the gods were created ( because it might lower the importence of gods ). They founded the leaden key and Weodeca gave Thaos the powers he had becuase she supported that goal.

 

The next part is complete speculation:

- When creating the gods, the engwithans did not know what exactly the result will be nor could they control the actions of the gods. All they knew was, that they wanted to create something that symbolizes an ideal concept they had.

- The gods are creatures with a free will, they can do whatever they want. They were created with a specific personality, but they are able to learn and to adapt their actions to the circumstances.

- The gods are powerful soul constructs, but they are not all powerful. They do not know everything about what happens in the world and what the other gods are doing.

- When the gods were created they did not know what to do. They discussed with each other and declared some kind of rules for themselves. When a buch of newborn kids invents some rules for themselves, this ruleset will hardly be perfect. Also each god decides to follow those rules or not according to his her own preferences because there is no outside force to enforce these laws. So the gods follow their own ruleset, unless one of them thinks that it gives him/her a big advantage and (s)he can get away with it.

- I consider the following things as evidence that the gods have a free will and their actions are not controlled or programmed by the engwithans:

 + Ondra destroyed the engwithan culture. ( Did they really plan to destroy oneselves? )

 + Abydon sacrificed himself to prevent this. ( They planned from the start that one god gets killed by the actions of another god? )

+ The other gods kicked Woedeca off her throne.

+ Magram conspired with Woedeca to kill Eothas but later she worked together with the other gods to prevent Weodecas comeback. (Maybe she plans to get rid of all other gods one after the other to be the only power around.)

+ Each god has a different idea of what should be done and nobody could predict which of those plans gets finally done. ( e.g. the gods tell the watcher what to do with the stolen souls, but they cannot predict or change which action (s)he takes. Maybe you do something completely different than any of them wants, like you try to use this power to become a god yourself. They can punish you if they do not like your actions, but they cannot control your actions.)

Edited April 27, 2018 by Madscientist

[The Sharmat]

I don't see Abydon's actions as noble at all, or groundbreaking for a god in any way. To me, he was merely fulfilling the directives of his Engwithan "programming" - the fact that it involved getting his body in the way of a small moon is irrelevant as this was something he has literally been built to do. He moved to act out his portfolio of preservation and chose the only means appropriate to achieve this goal. It may have very well been a completely automatic response - and if so, does that really qualify as noble? Can white cells be called noble?

 

Were it any other god (Eothas doesn't count) sacrificing themselves for humanity, with a completely different sphere of influence, I'd agree with you. But in the case of Abydon, it seems like it was almost business as usual.

Would you say the same of a parent that gives its life for its child? After all what is a human being but a vehicle programmed to propagate genes?

[Skazz]

 

I don't see Abydon's actions as noble at all, or groundbreaking for a god in any way. To me, he was merely fulfilling the directives of his Engwithan "programming" - the fact that it involved getting his body in the way of a small moon is irrelevant as this was something he has literally been built to do. He moved to act out his portfolio of preservation and chose the only means appropriate to achieve this goal. It may have very well been a completely automatic response - and if so, does that really qualify as noble? Can white cells be called noble?

 

Were it any other god (Eothas doesn't count) sacrificing themselves for humanity, with a completely different sphere of influence, I'd agree with you. But in the case of Abydon, it seems like it was almost business as usual.

Would you say the same of a parent that gives its life for its child? After all what is a human being but a vehicle programmed to propagate genes?

 

 

But human beings can consciously choose to defy their genes and impulses. The point I was trying to make is: can the gods say the same for themselves?

Edited April 27, 2018 by Skazz

[Madscientist]

my answer is: Yes, the gods of Eora can do this.

 

BTW: what do you mean with "to defy your genes"?

The interaction of genes and the environment determines the brain structure of an individual. Being able to learn and to adapt to different situations is part of the brain as well. While most animals with a complex brain (including humans ) usually care for their children, they will definitely not sacrifice their own life for somebody else in every case.

 

PS: You should watch "Ghost in the Shell". ( the anime movie from 1995 that was an inspiration for matrix, Deus Ex and other things). There is lots of action but there are also many philosophical discussions. Among others there is also a discussion that AI and humans are just programs that are build to maintain and reproduce oneself.

A great movie everyone should watch.

[Skazz]

BTW: what do you mean with "to defy your genes"?

 

I guess I worded that poorly. I meant the biological inclinations and predispositions you are born with. As in: anyone can learn a skill through practice and determination, but some are born with specific talents that make grasping certain skills faster and/or easier. In the case of the Eoran gods, I guess that would translate into their personalities and domains, as that was the package they were created with by their makers.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Skazz

[flazeo25]

I wonder since Eothas will be main focus of Deadfire, did spending time in Waidwens body and godbomb destroying his host and damaging his soul cause Eothas change. Cause the way trailer has him come across as looking for vengance. I wonder if changes made him more alive.

 

Im guessing reason he went to Deadfire Archipelago was to rebuild himself or cause east of it is unknown areas that Ondra stops other getting by, which is likely the area where all of gods are physically located at. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by flazeo25

[Fiaryn]

I wonder since Eothas will be main focus of Deadfire, did spending time in Waidwens body and godbomb destroying his host and damaging his soul cause Eothas change. Cause the way trailer has him come across as looking for vengance. I wonder if changes made him more alive.

 

Im guessing reason he went to Deadfire Archipelago was to rebuild himself or cause east of it is unknown areas that Ondra stops other getting by, which is likely the area where all of gods are physically located at. 

 

What makes you think Eothas is motivated by revenge?

 

Or to get more to the point, have you seen the character quotation Josh tweeted regarding Eothas? It casts that theory into doubt.

[Elarie]

 

I wonder since Eothas will be main focus of Deadfire, did spending time in Waidwens body and godbomb destroying his host and damaging his soul cause Eothas change. Cause the way trailer has him come across as looking for vengance. I wonder if changes made him more alive.

 

Im guessing reason he went to Deadfire Archipelago was to rebuild himself or cause east of it is unknown areas that Ondra stops other getting by, which is likely the area where all of gods are physically located at. 

 

What makes you think Eothas is motivated by revenge?

 

Or to get more to the point, have you seen the character quotation Josh tweeted regarding Eothas? It casts that theory into doubt.

 

I haven't seen the quote. What is it?

[JerekKruger]

 

 

I wonder since Eothas will be main focus of Deadfire, did spending time in Waidwens body and godbomb destroying his host and damaging his soul cause Eothas change. Cause the way trailer has him come across as looking for vengance. I wonder if changes made him more alive.

 

Im guessing reason he went to Deadfire Archipelago was to rebuild himself or cause east of it is unknown areas that Ondra stops other getting by, which is likely the area where all of gods are physically located at.

What makes you think Eothas is motivated by revenge?

 

Or to get more to the point, have you seen the character quotation Josh tweeted regarding Eothas? It casts that theory into doubt.

I haven't seen the quote. What is it?

"You do not need to follow me, for their sake or your own. Something beautiful is coming, something that will save us all."

- Eothas

[The Sharmat]

 

 

I don't see Abydon's actions as noble at all, or groundbreaking for a god in any way. To me, he was merely fulfilling the directives of his Engwithan "programming" - the fact that it involved getting his body in the way of a small moon is irrelevant as this was something he has literally been built to do. He moved to act out his portfolio of preservation and chose the only means appropriate to achieve this goal. It may have very well been a completely automatic response - and if so, does that really qualify as noble? Can white cells be called noble?

 

Were it any other god (Eothas doesn't count) sacrificing themselves for humanity, with a completely different sphere of influence, I'd agree with you. But in the case of Abydon, it seems like it was almost business as usual.

Would you say the same of a parent that gives its life for its child? After all what is a human being but a vehicle programmed to propagate genes?

 

 

But human beings can consciously choose to defy their genes and impulses. The point I was trying to make is: can the gods say the same for themselves?

 

We have as much evidence of that for Gods as we do for humans. Which is to say it's an open question on both.