Rogue rework thread

[dunehunter]

Actually the combo of additive dmg bonuses and multiplicative MIG can be quite the advantage for the rogue with his multiple dmg modifiers (Sneak, Backstab, Deathblows...). He just needs high MIG. Eventually he will also get a lash ability at higher levels (I read something about a poison ability).

Yeah I guess I’m not right with the statement of Might. I checked the leaked ability list and didn’t see any rogue abilities with poison keywords tho.

[Boeroer]

I meant "Toxic Strike". Maybe it's a lash attack, maybe another lame raw DoT.

[youspoonybard]

Actually the combo of additive dmg bonuses and multiplicative MIG can be quite the advantage for the rogue with his multiple dmg modifiers (Sneak, Backstab, Deathblows...). He just needs high MIG. Eventually he will also get a lash ability at higher levels (I read something about a poison ability).

 

If Deep Wounds stacks, now that it's a percentage it's kind of a lash ... 

[Boeroer]

It doesn't stack. I think MaxQuest reported that.

[Soulmojo]

Good list, I have some of my own.

 

Rogue has no defensive bonuses which helps him/her in melee combat, which does not reinforces the whole 'duelist' aspect and 'increased survivability' I was expecting. 

 

1. I would give a passive which gives deflection bonus when having a weapon in the offhand. This does not help much but at least it's a start.

 

2. Also I think rogue deflection needs to benefit from his/her reflex bonus. Receiving a portion of it's reflex as deflection bonus.  I would emphasise that I find it ridiculous that an inherently agile class who should be able to evade has to  1. be ranged 2, be in stealth as much as possible 3. armor up to compete in survivability with other classes.

 

3. Recless assault idea is great, I would though create one too which is the exact opposite, meaning defensive -10 accuracy 20% recovery penalty +10 deflection with upgrades removing accuracy penalty or upgrade deflection bonus. Not sure how much would this be used, but it would be nice to have an ability to turn to if popo hits the fan...

 

4. I would make a light armor proficiency passive to rogue which gives rogue deflection bonus when wearing light or no armor.

 

 

The idea is to be the class which can relie on deflection rather than armor to survive. Note that the game mechanics are wired in a way that it is technically impossible to reach invulnerability through deflection.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Soulmojo

[tiduszx]

I'd like to see rogues walk faster while in stealth the higher their stealth is.. It will make backstabbing easier/more reliable to pull off.. I hate it that you're so slow in stealth.

[dunehunter]

I'd like to see rogues walk faster while in stealth the higher their stealth is.. It will make backstabbing easier/more reliable to pull off.. I hate it that you're so slow in stealth.

 

I feel high level of stealth skill doesn't help much, 5,6 point into it is usually enough. It'd be good if more point of stealth can increase your movement speed when stealth.

[Veevoir]

I'd like to see rogues walk faster while in stealth the higher their stealth is.. It will make backstabbing easier/more reliable to pull off.. I hate it that you're so slow in stealth.

You will hate it even more when your party starts walking different speeds in stealth. Also, while a nice gimmick - it will not fix any issues rogue has in combat, unfortunately.

[Boeroer]

In PoE it was the case that a character with movement speed bonuses was walking faster in every situation (when stealthed and also out of combat when traveling over the map). That got "fixed" with a patch.

 

Mainly because it made sneaking much easier than with normal move speed. It wasn't a problem when moving through maps though. The fast one would just arrive sooner and had to wait for the "normal" ones. I liked giving Boots of Speed or Fast Runner to everybody because exploration was faster that way.

 

Rogues could profit fromt a general move speed bonus (besides Fast Runner). Move speed translates to higher dps with melee characters.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Boeroer

[Cheston]

Good list, I have some of my own.

 

Rogue has no defensive bonuses which helps him/her in melee combat, which does not reinforces the whole 'duelist' aspect and 'increased survivability' I was expecting. 

 

Have you tried Defensive Roll? I was surprised at how often I used it to dodge sidewinders' attacks.

[Mack]

 

Good list, I have some of my own.

 

Rogue has no defensive bonuses which helps him/her in melee combat, which does not reinforces the whole 'duelist' aspect and 'increased survivability' I was expecting. 

 

Have you tried Defensive Roll? I was surprised at how often I used it to dodge sidewinders' attacks.

 

 

Hmm, come to think of it, it could be handy. Does intelligence affect the duration?

[Boeroer]

Defensive Roll doesn't dodge anything. It just makes you immune to engagement after you got slapped with a crit (which can be great if you want to flee or just move over the battlefield unhindered - great in combo with move speed bonuses).

 

Yes, the duration is ifluenced by INT. At 14 INT I have a duration of 2.4 secs (only visible on the char sheet, not in the ability tree).

Edited April 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Mack]

Does the loss of engagement also prompt enemy AI to seek another target? How would you rate this ability overall?

[Boeroer]

No, usually enemies don't change targets because they lose engagement on you. Enemies with ranged weapons don't even have engagement at all - and some creatures that fight in melee also don't have engagement (tigers for example). Usually enemies pick their targets based on stuff like your current health, defenses or class. If they think that you are worth attacking they will continue to do so with or without engagement.

 

But without their engagement you can run around freely without getting any disengement attacks - and those can be nasty as heck (disengagement attacks have higher ACC and do +100% damage).

Edited April 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

So during Suppress Affliction the character is immune to afflictions is that what u mean?

 

 

 

I've done more testing and it's more complex than that, at least with powder burns.

 

Sometimes, if you powder burns after the Suprress lands, the negative Distract will stick. 

 

If you powder burns, then Suppress, that wipes Distract, and if you powder burn again, the distract then doesn't stick.

 

I think it's some sort of interaction between the positive and negative aspect of the PB stacking/not stacking correctly and likely a bug. I can't figure out exactly what's going on.

[Cheston]

Defensive Roll doesn't dodge anything. It just makes you immune to engagement after you got slapped with a crit (which can be great if you want to flee or just move over the battlefield unhindered - great in combo with move speed bonuses).

 

Yes, the duration is ifluenced by INT. At 14 INT I have a duration of 2.4 secs (only visible on the char sheet, not in the ability tree).

 

It's particularly useful when you're about to get hit with a strong melee ability- the AI won't cancel melee abilities if the target goes out of range, so if you're about to get hit by a Blinding Strike, Finishing Blow, or something similar, you can step away and yakety-sax back into the fight after the enemy's wasted their resource. That's what I mean by "dodging." (Assuming Defensive Roll is up, I mean.)

Edited April 14, 2018 by Cheston

[Boeroer]

Ah, right. Cool.

[dunehunter]

Too situational to be useful.

[Boeroer]

Not really. If you want to rush the enemies in the backline and don't want to waste Guile on Escape you can just run,catch one crit from disengagement and then run to your target unhindered.

[Ophiuchus]

 

A lot of these suggestions, though not all, seem backstab-centric. I think we should bear in mind that the rogue's flagship ability is sneak attack, not backstab. Frequent backstabbing is a certain build and playstyle (no doubt it will be a popular one) but if the class needs a rework it shouldn't be in service of better backstabs.

 

edit: I'm not saying the suggestions are bad but trying to encourage a wider perspective on reworking rogues

 

Yeah, that's part of why I think that a "remove inspirations" ability is so important. 

 

One thing Josh said in the stream yesterday is that there's a late-game ability for Fighters that's just "basic inspiration, in every stat." Note that this makes the fighter immune to sneak attack, at least in a 1v1 situation (where the Rogue can't get Flanked). 

 

Rogues need a way to wipe inspirations.

 

EDIT:

 

replace strike the bell with an ability of the same name that removes all inspirations from the target

 

each of the three higher level iterations then adds a different affliction effect (stun, blind, whatever)

 

 

I really like that idea. Maybe your whatever could let the Rogue steal an inspiration.