Spells don't do any damage

[MadDemiurg]

100+ fireballs have a rather large aoe which you is clear glossing over and such is supplemented by + 100 rolling flames and interrupt fodder such as tattered veils. just ran foothills map with a 6th level nature godlike evoker as part o' a beta merc party and he did +600 damage. 1 small map and we weren't giving him cheap kills and holding the rogue back or somesuch.

 

we already mentioned specific builds which you casual ignore it seems.  take the same nature godlike mentioned multiple times and make it a sage combining helwalker monk and whatever-you-want wizard with a dual wield scepter config.  will hit 10 wounds quick, so even at 15 for starting might ,you will likely be at ~30 might for most of the battle. quickened scepters, thanks to monk flurry bolstered by dance o' death, is gonna be doing consistent high damage with overpower penetration and heightened accuracy even before adding lightning lash at level 7. might is multiplicative, so the ~30 might nature godlike sage's fireballs is gonna be hitting extreme hard, with comical screen wiping damage when activating empowers.

 

priests o' wael combined helwaker monk?  *chuckle* the priestly spiritual weapons is having a rather large lash so a rod blast combined with monk flurry is devastating even before one considers how potent is the heals for such a build.  don't like monk for some reason, then add paladin for fod + rod blast.  

 

warlocks can nullify the berserker penalty with wizard's infuse with vital essence. this alone makes 'em a powerful build whether is using parasitic staff or spirit lance or whatever. 

 

etc.

 

serious diminishing return.  if you ain't yet convinced, you never will be. regardless, our initial point stands that you got the issue all bas$ ackwards and inverted.  you haven't identified a problem with casters and comparing 'em to multiclass exploitive builds is nothing save self-indulgent and counterproductive scarecrow beating.

 

HA! Good Fun!

If you're comparing to beta mercs, they're all terrible. I stated multiple times that in suboptimal build world damage spells are ok. They are not ok when you start optimizing. I've played the very same nature godlike evoker, it's decent for a caster but nowhere near top tier. Monk multi might hit bit harder than that, but you're missing PL and spell levels from multiclassing. Scepters also suck in beta 4 after pen rebalance with comically low base dmg at the cost of marginally higer pen. So this is an outdated build. I'll let you do the math.

 

Priest of wael with rod is decent but not really amazing due to terrible 6+s recovery with the rod modal. And this is a weapon summon, this whole thread is about damage spells being bad. Most of the builds you're suggesting are actually centered around weapons which I never argued about being not viable. 

 

The point is, spell based damage dealing is bad in current meta.

 

But let's agree to disagree, I don't really see a point arguing with you anyway.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

I missed a lot with Soul Annihilation, I'm playing on PoTD...

Did you max perception? Anyways, **** happens and everyone can miss. It's not like Soul Anihilation has lower accuracy than normal attacks. But you hit "most" of the time atm.

 

I mostly mess around solo PotD atm, party is easy mode .

 

 

Yep, I tried a pale elf paladin/soul blade with 20 Perception, dw doesn't really work well on PoTD because I just miss so much with my attacks, and my soul annihilation miss a lot. I might try a ranger/soulblade instead, or use single weapon style instead of dw.

 

 

Idk, my pala/souldblade is hitting just fine most of the time. How is dw bad accuracy wise if it doesn't give you any penalties?

 

The only style that would beat it is 1h + empty hand as it gets 12 extra acc but it's both squishy and pathetic dps for the most part.

 

Try dw spears for +5 acc although dw sabres and zealous focus are working just fine for me.

 

Ranger/souldblade dw should be still decent with wounding shot but not really as good as pala. FoD also has innate +20 acc while wounding shot needs an upgrade to get it.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[JerekKruger]

I've played the very same nature godlike evoker, it's decent for a caster but nowhere near top tier.

 

The nerf to the Evoker's unique ability was pretty big too, at least to my mind. 

[Gromnir]

complete missed the point on the beta party.  beta party is a constant.  we were not comparing nature godlike to the beta  party but were providing damage with a relative fixed party.  same nature godlike caster in a party of assassin/______, berserker/_______, or paladin/_______ would likely being doing less damage simple 'cause other party members would be doing more.  woulda thought such were self evident.

 

and we already made the point earlier that dedicated casters did not benefit much from multiclassing. 

 

"the casters typical do not benefit from multi-classing.  the passive weapon damage enhancers do little for dedicated casters and multi-class casters.  combine a wizard and priest also is tending to be counterproductive as  you is sacrificing higher level abilities simple to access a secondary spell catalog.  casters, with few exceptions, benefit little from multi-class, which is kinda what most people expected, no?"

 

we did note however how efficacious multiclasses which include casters can be and how general improvements to the casters only magnifies the gulf 'tween multiclass power and single.  as such you are chasing your tail on the weapon efficacy o' multiclass combos.

 

but yes, am thinking an impasse were reached a couple posts previous.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MaxQuest]

I agree that it's a hyberbole, it was intended as one. But the fact is, they are still very suboptimal.

Do agree here, there are several damaging spells and powers whose damage is suboptimal.

 

I'm not sure why you're arguing about CC spells being good in the 2nd part of your post, I never suggested they aren't.

Duh, that was a reply to Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, where I listed what spells I use in beta4 on wizard the most.

 

Most damage spells of all 4 categories you listed are nerfed pretty heavily tho e.g. shining beacon is only a fraction of what it was before.

Many indeed were nerfed. And Shining Beacon now deals 64 base damage, down from 80.

In PoE1 a buffed priest could deal ~240 preDR damage with one Beacon. At the same time I'll just say that I can do more in Deadfire. But shhhh... ^^

 

And weapons are capable of some serious alpha too, I can probably do 2 full attacks in the time it takes to cast a fireball for 200+ total damage + cleave.

200 damage + ~50 vs 2 adjacent targets, make a 75 dmg fireball worth it if it hits 4+ targets.

At the same time, fireball was listed as average cast in the last patch notes; and opening from stealth reduces recovery by 85% now.

 

Dunno, which is better atm as I haven't played an alpha-strike party since beta2; so would have to actually play-test and see how it feels first. Atm am playing via dot-charm-lots-of-heals style.

 

But generally I do see atm how to achieve ~50-60 single-target steady phys dps (with alchemy, but without cleave/flurry). And ~10-15 dps per spell vs all enemies in 4-5m radius, after the dots have landed.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Unless my party is built around alpha-strike, I spec my wizards for crowd-control, and leave "total spell damage" department for priests, druids and in case of poe1 also: ciphers and dragon-trashed chanters.

 

In beta4 my favorite wizard spell so far is Repulsive Visage. Even through terrifying is only partially working at the moment (as it doesn't prevent enemies from using all hostile spells like some aoes), it still prevents enemies from auto-attacking you and afaik from using single-targeted offensive stuff. The next spell I like is Miasma of Dull-Mindedness due it's decent malus to will; which helps with landing charms, beacons and also helps that visage.

 

Other than that there is Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights, which was UP in PoE1, but decent in Deadfire, since it guarantees that your armor won't be overpenetrated, if penetrated at all. And the rest is survivability ones like: Arcane Veil and Spirit Shield, because they have good effect/casttime ratio.

 

Special note about Confusion and Bewildering Spectacle: in PoE1 I sometimes used those as oh-shi- emergency buttons, since it could quickly transform a 10x6 into 6x10 fight. And was really disappointed with them in deadfire. But I can see a situational incentive to pick them after beta4 came in. For example Confusion could be good vs Scirocco as in: let them kill and blind themselves.

 

 

 

 

THanks, that's interesting.

 

I'e been choosing based on, roughly, "what's going to be so useful that I want it in EVERY fight," since lots of things are available in grimoires now, and "what works well with scripting,"  i.e., what's easy to program my wizard to use effectively. That means Eldritch Aim (a *perfect* prebuff), tattered veils ("if there is enemy caster, poke"), Arcane Veil for scriptable defense (if enemy engages, Veil Up) and then the Foe-AoE powers -- combusting wounds, blackened sight, etc. Expose Vulnerabilities seems like a must-pick given the penetration system.  Bounding and Concussive seem too valuable to miss; they're too useful for burning down single targets and I miss them every fight I don't have them. If my wizard is a Nature Godlike I pick one of the self-buffs that will trigger her powerup (generally the second rank one that also buffs Int) and script that to cast regularly also.

 

Enervating Visage is a good spot, I'd neglected that one. There is a better version of it available at 9th level, though, so I'd probably take that instead. I hadn't realized how potent Dazzling Lights would be either. If they improve the scripting slightly and add a way to set them to cast to "max enemy targets AND avoid ally targets" then I'd probably replace tattered veils with that, but as it is it seems like something to get from a grimoire instead.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[MadDemiurg]

200 damage + ~50 vs 2 adjacent targets, make a 75 dmg fireball worth it if it hits 4+ targets.

At the same time, fireball was listed as average cast in the last patch notes; and opening from stealth reduces recovery by 85% now.

 

Dunno, which is better atm as I haven't played an alpha-strike party since beta2; so would have to actually play-test and see how it feels first. Atm am playing via dot-charm-lots-of-heals style.

 

But generally I do see atm how to achieve ~50-60 single-target steady phys dps (with alchemy, but without cleave/flurry). And ~10-15 dps per spell vs all enemies in 4-5m radius, after the dots have landed.

 

Well, we're sorta comparing apples to oranges here since single target damage is more valuable than aoe as it allows to drop enemy count faster. I would say that if single target is approaching aoe levels in total damage the situation for aoe is really bad. E.g taking your numbers 50-60 single target vs 10-15 aoe is heavily unbalanced in single target favor. Plus let's say 100+ fireball is 1/enc using empower, you can full attack like 4-5 times with multi pala and then go on cleaving with still really high dps. 

 

Fireball is still 3s cast + 4s recovery base whereas a weapon attack would be like 0.5s attack + 4s recovery and -44% recovery from dw + dw style.

 

P.S. you could actually do a lot more than 240 with shining beacon in PoE1 too if you buff int and might through the roof (easy with priest spells).

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[MaxQuest]

Well, we're sorta comparing apples to oranges here since single target damage is more valuable than aoe as it allows to drop enemy count faster.

Usually yes, but if those enemies can't attack because they are terrified, stunned, charmed, dominated or paralyzed... the count doesn't matter much ^^. Another strategy could be to throw the dots, and than chain Barring Deaths Door)

 

Although yeap, these are different things, and can hardly be compared within the same party.

 

I would say that if single target is approaching aoe levels in total damage the situation for aoe is really bad. E.g taking your numbers 50-60 single target vs 10-15 aoe is heavily unbalanced in single target favor.

Depends on the enemy count. But yes, I wouldn't mind upping dot and periodic damage by ~20%, while lowering their duration by ~15%. This way dps is 20% higher, while total damage by only a fraction.

 

P.S. you could actually do a lot more than 240 with shining beacon in PoE1 too if you buff int and might through the roof (easy with priest spells).

I was doing 254dmg at 36 MIG/31 INT on a godlike hireling. Wasn't bothering with pumping more.

At the same time I doubt it was possible to go higher than 36 MIG/38 INT on her, which would result in 80*1.78*2.4 = 341. A main, non-godlike priest could probably get up to 400 if he's really dedicated. And these values are achievable in Deadfire, although in beta you have to use empower (with a single-class priest), or have a really high arcana on a single-class helwalker.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[dunehunter]

You shall try combo Evoker/Ascendent, it seems now the Ascended buff will apply to all caster spells, so once you are at max focus you, got more PL than a single class wizard(you got +3 PL from ascended, while -2 PL from multiclass), I tested a nature godlike Evoker/Ascendent and it nukes really hard, first use Arquebus or other firearms to reach max focus(which is really easy with draining whip), then use Wizard blasts first because they are more powerful, oncce u are run out of wizard ones, cast something like mind blades and soul ignition instead.

 

My mind blades did 100+ damage at lvl 9 so I'd say this combo is a very good aoe damage dealer, while didn't far behind meleers when killing single targets.

Edited April 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Sounds really nice. Ascended are go!

Edited April 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

Yeah, I actually said that Ascended are an exception and suggested an Ascended/Wizard nature godlike build in the other thread .

 

+3 PL working on wizard spells is a bug tho, so enjoy it while it lasts.

 

 

@MaxQuest

 

Yeah, I had a priest main doing like 360+ dmg with the shining beacon PoE1. Good to know you can still manage it PoE2.

 

I think if we don't start nerfing OP weapon combos and abilities most damage spells could use just a straight up buff, especially direct damage ones. DoTs seem to be in a bit better shape. It doesn't even have to be a direct buff, you could add passives like +20% spell damage or +20% spell duration (working on DoTs). There's also a ton of trash spells left from PoE1 they never bothered to rebalance so they're still trash. Although many of the new "rebalance" attempts like the new armor system have made the game worse imo.

 

Another thing would be making pure caster multiclasses bit more attractive e.g. legitimizing ascended +3 PL to be for all classes or making fury passives work for all elemental spells.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[JerekKruger]

You shall try combo Evoker/Ascendent, it seems now the Ascended buff will apply to all caster spells...

 

Okay that's awesome. Do you know if its intended or a bug?

[dunehunter]

 

You shall try combo Evoker/Ascendent, it seems now the Ascended buff will apply to all caster spells...

 

Okay that's awesome. Do you know if its intended or a bug?

 

 

Sadly I think it's a bug, and it's not the PL is applied to wizard spells, but the soul whip bonus from ascended is mistakenly applied to spell damage

[JerekKruger]

Sadly I think it's a bug, and it's not the PL is applied to wizard spells, but the soul whip bonus from ascended is mistakenly applied to spell damage

 

Just like lashes from Spiritual Weapons I guess. Out of interest has that been fixed or are they still doing so?

[dunehunter]

 

Sadly I think it's a bug, and it's not the PL is applied to wizard spells, but the soul whip bonus from ascended is mistakenly applied to spell damage

 

Just like lashes from Spiritual Weapons I guess. Out of interest has that been fixed or are they still doing so?

 

 

I tested and some does some not... Priest spiritual weapon = no, eternal flame from FoD = yes.

[MadDemiurg]

Well, this is logical, Fod gives your character +20% fire dmg, while spiritual weapon has lash on the weapon itself. Chanter's +25% fire dmg chant is also one of the rare things that works on spells. Skald is another pretty competitive caster build without the 2/encounter spell syndrome. Skald/fighter should be nice for fishing for crits and disciplined barrage should work on spells.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

 Sorry to say this, but sometimes I think the devs that go through the bug list and fix stuff must be half asleep... or boozed... or both.

[Boeroer]

Chanter's +25% fire dmg chant is also one of the rare things that works on spells.

Got removed with beta 4, now only works on weapon attacks.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Chanter's +25% fire dmg chant is also one of the rare things that works on spells.

Got removed with beta 4, now only works on weapon attacks.

 

Welp, let's nerf spells some more, why the hell not. Terrible decision.

 

Honestly, the ability to pile on ALL the bonuses on weapon attacks and almost none on spells is why we have the current imbalance. Also damage dealing passives like sneak attack and biting whip having full synergy with each other while spell passives explicitly designed not to work in multiclass e.g. fury working only on druid spells.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg