Pondering Questions...

[daveyeisley]

Some musings on the story, not really looking for debate.... just curious how some of these questions could be explained, or if I maybe missed something - or if they were left unanswered on purpose.

 

If Thaos created the gods out of harnessed soul essence, where did souls come from? 

 

What force or other entity ensured death/life/rebirth before the gods existed?

 

If the gods were created, how did Abydon get a giant body (before he sacrificed himself)?

 

If Wael continually wants knowledge concealed and hidden for people to seek it out, never letting anybody actually retain it, then shouldn't Wael be considered the God of Ignorance?

 

If the Engwithans sacrificed their souls to create the gods with Thaos, how could he allow or approve of the gods destroying his entire civilization? If his plan was to empower Woedica to punish the gods, why didn't she stop them before they did it in the first place? And if the other gods really are that sort of lying betrayers of their creators and the people they were created to shepherd and preserve, then why is Woedica protrayed as the bad one?

 

Why does Ondra get away with causing people and even other gods to lose things just to she can lay claim to them in perpetuity? Its one thing if losing a memory or posession is a willing choice, but she basically admits she has engineered for certain things to be lost. And she doesn't seem to see the problem with laying claim to them (isn't that stealing?) Especially the White Forge and the Eyeless, even while Abydon technically still exists, and the memory she took from him was not by his choice. Just seems like there should be some way to punish her for being such a douche.... sort of like how Durance eventually calls Magran on her BS and vows to punish her.

 

If the Player chooses to absorb the souls of the machine in Heritage Hill, and they gain power from it.... doesn't it stand to reason, when faced with an option to empower a goddess to reign over the other gods with another massive boost of soul essence, that the player might decide to give all the gods and Thaos the middle finger and instead absorb the souls and make themself a deity? I mean, considering how ethically bankrupt and incompetent some of the gods are, the PC would probably do a better job....

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Not going to pretend I can answer everything, but here are my two cents:

 

Thaos did not create the gods single-handedly. He was part of the initiative or didn't take part at all. I think the way it is explained, it leaves a bit of empty space for the individual to fill at their own leisure. The way I interpret it is, not everybody were in the same boat when the 'gods' were getting created. Thaos thoroughly believes that people cannot be left to their own devices, and apparently, people not belonging to his civilization at the time were doing blood sacrifices, which appeared appalling to him. He and few others(or perhaps Thaos was not involved at all in the initial creation), through the power of animancy--the science his civilization developed, created the 'gods', but since those are artificial entities, they are bound within certain ideals, albeit being very powerful. To keep humanity in check, Thaos and his like-minded individuals created the churches and cults, for a lack of better words, following the various 'gods.' In doing so, they believed, humanity will be better guided. It looks like they gained the support of a lot of the Engwithan people, as they willingly sacrificed themselves in order to provide souls to become amassed into these being called 'gods', while the last of the Engwithan people remained as the priests to the 'gods.' That was their 'gift' to humanity. Iovara learned, by eavesdropping, of the artificial nature of the 'gods' and started preaching that one can live without fearing them. Thaos is not unsympathetic to her--he clearly says that in the end, but the belief that humanity cannot guide itself is stronger with him, so he organized the Inquisition to ultimately stop her. His public brutalities against her only serve to strengthen the fear of the 'gods' in normal people. He really does not hate her. Apart from that, he works with Woedeca as an ally, rather than as a servant, albeit he states that he is indeed a servant. He appeals to her in that manner only to keep on her good side, using her pride, but I think that to him it's more like partnership. He, after all, needs powerful allies to keep doing his work, which as we learn, spanned and continues to span over many generations and affects great many people as he is trying to maintain the fear of the 'gods.' His work to strengthen Woedeca is probably part of the plan to do so. Sort of, keeping even the gods themselves in check. 

 

The thing is, one does not needs the 'gods' to oversee anything. They are just ideals, certain aspects of existence given a sublimed entity. Ultimately, they are not needed. The wheel keeps turning with or without Berath and so on.    

 

The question about the player character becoming a 'god' is a good one. I wish I could.

[daveyeisley]

Thaos was the one who flipped the switch to create the gods. I just wonder about the metaphysicas of the PoE setting, like how is the existence of souls and soul essence explained. What is the source? Void, Adra? The planet?

[Messier-31]

If Thaos created the gods out of harnessed soul essence, where did souls come from? 

 

What force or other entity ensured death/life/rebirth before the gods existed?

 

The answer is as simple as in our own real world: no one knows.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Thaos was the one who flipped the switch to create the gods. I just wonder about the metaphysicas of the PoE setting, like how is the existence of souls and soul essence explained. What is the source? Void, Adra? The planet?

 

I think that's only your interpretation. Although there is a scene where he puts on a machine to suck the souls out of a lot of people, I don't think he single-handedly created all the gods at once. 

[Torm51]

 

Thaos was the one who flipped the switch to create the gods. I just wonder about the metaphysicas of the PoE setting, like how is the existence of souls and soul essence explained. What is the source? Void, Adra? The planet?

 

I think that's only your interpretation. Although there is a scene where he puts on a machine to suck the souls out of a lot of people, I don't think he single-handedly created all the gods at once. 

 

Correct, that flipping of the switch could have been creating the gods or it was just another sacrifice of Engwithans to power Woedica or whatever god needed more souls at the time/some other plot he was orchestrating.

[Bob Hope]

Well, in order,

 

In this setting souls are a natural force like gravity

 

Nobody ensured life death and rebirth before the gods came along, and the gods don't ensure them now

 

The gods are extremely powerful, and presumably able to incarnate.

 

Wael is basically the god of ignorance, yeah. Or really, the god of always asking questions

 

The Engwithans were already gone, all Ondra planned to destroy was their ruins. Thaos probably would consider that a necessary sacrifice to keep the big secret, but whether he approved or not he's not the boss of the gods

 

One thing I like about the portrayal of Ondra as extremely stupid and unpleasant is that it adds to the final reveal of the gods being creations. People frequently say "what does it matter where they came from, they're still gods" and the answer is, well, they're ****

 

I don't think the natural laws of the setting would allow someone to absorb all that energy and gain power. If they do, then I'd expect them to save "become a god" for the big ending of a trilogy or something

[fgalkin]

That wasn't a ruined city that Abydon was protecting. Clearly, not all Engwithans died in the ritual. In fact, we know this, because they invited the Glanfathans to settle down in Twin Elms, and that was after the creation of the gods. 

 

 

Why does Ondra get away with causing people and even other gods to lose things just to she can lay claim to them in perpetuity? Its one thing if losing a memory or posession is a willing choice, but she basically admits she has engineered for certain things to be lost. And she doesn't seem to see the problem with laying claim to them (isn't that stealing?) Especially the White Forge and the Eyeless, even while Abydon technically still exists, and the memory she took from him was not by his choice. Just seems like there should be some way to punish her for being such a douche.... sort of like how Durance eventually calls Magran on her BS and vows to punish her.

 

Because Ondra is a god, and in the setting, gods are the sources of moral authority. Or, rather, each god's morality is given legitimacy by their divine nature. So, what Ondra did would seem evil to, say, a follower of Eothas, but perfectly legitimate to one of her followers (or a follower of Berath/Rymgard). It's how things like the Bleak Walkers can be a legitimate thing, and not being chased out of every town as a bunch of evil bandits. 

 

This is what Iovara had been fighting against, and the implication of her message. If the gods aren't truly gods, but super-powerful soul robots, then they can be held to account for their actions against mortals. They have no inherent right to rule, or even to exist. 

 

 

If the Player chooses to absorb the souls of the machine in Heritage Hill, and they gain power from it.... doesn't it stand to reason, when faced with an option to empower a goddess to reign over the other gods with another massive boost of soul essence, that the player might decide to give all the gods and Thaos the middle finger and instead absorb the souls and make themself a deity? I mean, considering how ethically bankrupt and incompetent some of the gods are, the PC would probably do a better job....

 

Consider the fact that you ate the souls of an entire city district, and all you got was a measly +1 Might out of it. The number of Hollowborn souls is greater, but not by that much. Had you absorbed them, your +20 might would turn into +200 might, but it wouldn't be enough to turn you into a god.  

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

That wasn't a ruined city that Abydon was protecting. Clearly, not all Engwithans died in the ritual. In fact, we know this, because they invited the Glanfathans to settle down in Twin Elms, and that was after the creation of the gods. 

 

 

Why does Ondra get away with causing people and even other gods to lose things just to she can lay claim to them in perpetuity? Its one thing if losing a memory or posession is a willing choice, but she basically admits she has engineered for certain things to be lost. And she doesn't seem to see the problem with laying claim to them (isn't that stealing?) Especially the White Forge and the Eyeless, even while Abydon technically still exists, and the memory she took from him was not by his choice. Just seems like there should be some way to punish her for being such a douche.... sort of like how Durance eventually calls Magran on her BS and vows to punish her.

 

Because Ondra is a god, and in the setting, gods are the sources of moral authority. Or, rather, each god's morality is given legitimacy by their divine nature. So, what Ondra did would seem evil to, say, a follower of Eothas, but perfectly legitimate to one of her followers (or a follower of Berath/Rymgard). It's how things like the Bleak Walkers can be a legitimate thing, and not being chased out of every town as a bunch of evil bandits. 

 

This is what Iovara had been fighting against, and the implication of her message. If the gods aren't truly gods, but super-powerful soul robots, then they can be held to account for their actions against mortals. They have no inherent right to rule, or even to exist. 

 

 

If the Player chooses to absorb the souls of the machine in Heritage Hill, and they gain power from it.... doesn't it stand to reason, when faced with an option to empower a goddess to reign over the other gods with another massive boost of soul essence, that the player might decide to give all the gods and Thaos the middle finger and instead absorb the souls and make themself a deity? I mean, considering how ethically bankrupt and incompetent some of the gods are, the PC would probably do a better job....

 

Consider the fact that you ate the souls of an entire city district, and all you got was a measly +1 Might out of it. The number of Hollowborn souls is greater, but not by that much. Had you absorbed them, your +20 might would turn into +200 might, but it wouldn't be enough to turn you into a god.  

 

Well... if you put it like this, it takes the souls of great many people to do anything on the level of the gods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greedy bastards.