Some Paladin ability names and a cross class are a bit...D and D?

[JerekKruger]

The definitions of sacred I see all reference God or religions.

[morhilane]

The definitions of sacred I see all reference God or religions.

Sacred : not to be violated, criticized, or tampered with

[Boeroer]

sacred

 

C1 considered to be holy and deserving respect, especially because of a connection with a god. [...]

 

C1 connected with religion. [...]

 

[Boeroer]

The only paladin order in Eora that I know of which has a direct connection to a god are the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr. Those are not even playable. All playable paladin orders are pretty mundane.

 

I don't have any problems with the names of the abilities - but I think Obsidian could have gone the whole way and name them accordingly instead of doing a balancing act with new lore/background/motivation of paladins and D&Dish ability names.

[morhilane]

The only paladin order in Eora that I know of which has a direct connection to a god are the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr.

 

You forgot about the Steel Garotte...

[Juodas Varnas]

 

The only paladin order in Eora that I know of which has a direct connection to a god are the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr.

 

You forgot about the Steel Garotte...

Those are the Woedica's nutjobs, right?

[Boeroer]

 

The only paladin order in Eora that I know of which has a direct connection to a god are the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr.

You forgot about the Steel Garotte...

No, I didn't forget them. I actually didn't know about them, tehehe.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[morhilane]

 

 

The only paladin order in Eora that I know of which has a direct connection to a god are the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr.

 

You forgot about the Steel Garotte...

Those are the Woedica's nutjobs, right?

 

They aren't nutjobs, they kill people who unlawfully break contracts on behalf of the wronged party. Some might be nutjobs that do it without being asked but saying they are all nutjobs is like saying all Bleak Walkers are psychopaths.

Edited March 19, 2018 by morhilane

[Boeroer]

Which they are...

[JerekKruger]

Sacred : not to be violated, criticized, or tampered with

True, although I don't think that's the usage being used for Sacred Immolation.

 

Similarly I doubt the Deadfire ability Divine Purpose is using the word to mean "very pleasing".

[JerekKruger]

Which they are...

Technically they needn't be, but in the real world I don't think anyone could follow that ideology for any length of time if they weren't. Your have a breakdown.

[Torm51]

I think people misunderstand Paladin orders in Eora. They might not be exclusively tied to the gods (some are), but they still have a tenet: a set of sacred beliefs/ideals.

Definitely don’t misunderstand them, I agree they hold tenets sacred and agree with what you are saying. Like I said when you say Holy and Light it takes me back to divine type stuff.

[Torm51]

And ya the Steel Garrotte are dedicated to Woedica.

[Boeroer]

Even in this case where a paladin order is connected to a god (Woedica) I would say that "hands of light" and "Sacred Immolation" don't fit. It's Woedica...

Edited March 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

I do find the religious aspects of being a Paladin very off-putting.

 

But, I think that's fine.  Not everything has to cater to me.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

I like it that there's both among them: religious fanatics/zealots (Steel Garrote, Fellows oSWM) and mundane ones (Goldpact, Darcozzi and so on). That way everybody could play their favorite types of paladin (in theory). I just don't understand why OBS didn't take the chance and introduced more paladin orders (and also more priests) as playable subclasses with Deadfire. I hope they do it with expansions.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

I like it that there's both among them: religious fanatics/zealots (Steel Garrote, Fellows oSWM) and mundane ones (Goldpact, Darcozzi and so on). That way everybody could play their favorite types of paladin (in theory). I just don't understand why OBS didn't take the chance and introduced more paladin orders (and also more priests) as playable subclasses with Deadfire. I hope they do it with expansions.

On point.

[injurai]

I would not be opposed to some 11th hour semantic changes to ability names if it better reflects the lore. Perhaps they could poll the community for ideas, like they did for multi-class names.

[PneumaticFire]

I think they should have in fact, committed to both instead of just keeping to a watered down middle ground.  Have your overtly religiously inspired sub-classes and go all out.  Also have your non religious ideologically inspired sub-classes.

A Paladin doesn't take half measures, classes that strongly lean one way or the other is in line with that

[No idea]

Historically, Paladins weren't religious zealots; they were esteemed knights of the Court of Charlemagne. Their particular qualities were heroism and chivalry, rather than just slaying evil creatures. Obsidian has just moved away from the particularly LG D&D-bent of the class and made them more general. I'm not really seeing a problem with that.

But with that historical precendent on mind, a Paladin should be a PRestige class, after all the player character would have first to become an "esteemed knight" (somebody who has made heroic and chivalric acts) instead of a base class.

 

Not that I would be against it. Some kind of "holy warrior" or "chivalric warrior" would work as prestige class even better than as base class

[neotemplar]

As I understand the lore, being a PAL in PoE is being in a certain state of mind, and in DnD it is being on a certain side of morality scale.

 

If you are very-very sure of your own morality code (even if it seems doubtful or completely disgusting to some others) you are able to "ignite" your soul and do some soul magic. 

 

So, it seems that in Eora you may be, let's say, extreme nazi, or religious fanatic, or small dogs hater, but if you are very sure that your cause is just, and better for the greater good, you will be able to do things, that in DnD are associated with "light side of the force".

 

I really like the idea.

Sometimes terrible people do terrible things, but their faith in their good cause keeps their psyche from collapsing and even gifts them great inner power.

 

In DnD if paladin commits a certain act he is "fallen", and the kind of act is usually prerecorded in rules and judged by GM (or the game engine being the GM) = objective judgment.

In Eora the paladin himself judges his or her acts, if you are ok with your soul, feel no regret - you are still a paladin = subjective judgment.

 

That is more evolved and mature view of paladins IMHO.

 

So, let's say I am a goldpact. For me a contract is holy. Even if this contract is to kill a group of robbers, and among them there is a pregnant thiefgirl. I kill a pregnant woman, but my view of my actions as "holy" actions is not doubted, so in my eyes I remain a holy warrior, have "something of LIGHT", etc. Makes sense.

Edited March 25, 2018 by neotemplar

[Torm51]

As I understand the lore, being a PAL in PoE is being in a certain state of mind, and in DnD it is being on a certain side of morality scale.

 

If you are very-very sure of your own morality code (even if it seems doubtful or completely disgusting to some others) you are able to "ignite" your soul and do some soul magic.

 

So, it seems that in Eora you may be, let's say, extreme nazi, or religious fanatic, or small dogs hater, but if you are very sure that your cause is just, and better for the greater good, you will be able to do things, that in DnD are associated with "light side of the force".

 

I really like the idea.

Sometimes terrible people do terrible things, but their faith in their good cause keeps their psyche from collapsing and even gifts them great inner power.

 

In DnD if paladin commits a certain act he is "fallen", and the kind of act is usually prerecorded in rules and judged by GM (or the game engine being the GM) = objective judgment.

In Eora the paladin himself judges his or her acts, if you are ok with your soul, feel no regret - you are still a paladin = subjective judgment.

 

That is more evolved and mature view of paladins IMHO.

 

So, let's say I am a goldpact. For me a contract is holy. Even if this contract is to kill a group of robbers, and among them there is a pregnant thiefgirl. I kill a pregnant woman, but my view of my actions as "holy" actions is not doubted, so in my eyes I remain a holy warrior, have "something of LIGHT", etc. Makes sense.

Agreed

[JerekKruger]

As I understand the lore, being a PAL in PoE is being in a certain state of mind, and in DnD it is being on a certain side of morality scale.

 

If you are very-very sure of your own morality code (even if it seems doubtful or completely disgusting to some others) you are able to "ignite" your soul and do some soul magic. 

 

So, it seems that in Eora you may be, let's say, extreme nazi, or religious fanatic, or small dogs hater, but if you are very sure that your cause is just, and better for the greater good, you will be able to do things, that in DnD are associated with "light side of the force".

 

I really like the idea.

Sometimes terrible people do terrible things, but their faith in their good cause keeps their psyche from collapsing and even gifts them great inner power.

 

In DnD if paladin commits a certain act he is "fallen", and the kind of act is usually prerecorded in rules and judged by GM (or the game engine being the GM) = objective judgment.

In Eora the paladin himself judges his or her acts, if you are ok with your soul, feel no regret - you are still a paladin = subjective judgment.

 

That is more evolved and mature view of paladins IMHO.

 

So, let's say I am a goldpact. For me a contract is holy. Even if this contract is to kill a group of robbers, and among them there is a pregnant thiefgirl. I kill a pregnant woman, but my view of my actions as "holy" actions is not doubted, so in my eyes I remain a holy warrior, have "something of LIGHT", etc. Makes sense.

 

Very well explained, and I agree that it's a cool idea. In Pillars a Paladin would fall not because they break an external code, but because they start to doubt their own internal one.

[neotemplar]

I always hated "flat" paladins of DnD (classic early editions, later they allowed them to be of any alignment), but I greatly enjoyed roleplaying goldpacts in PoE. When you really think hard, should you take the quest or not, don't feel shy to negotiate price, or refuse the quest completely, but if you take it - you do it no matter what. Like literally you "Let the whole Rome burn down, but the contract be executed".

 

And if your employer refuses to pay or tries to change the terms on the fly... well, let's say...

 

you better pay a goldpact  

[Torm51]

I always hated "flat" paladins of DnD (classic early editions, later they allowed them to be of any alignment), but I greatly enjoyed roleplaying goldpacts in PoE. When you really think hard, should you take the quest or not, don't feel shy to negotiate price, or refuse the quest completely, but if you take it - you do it no matter what. Like literally you "Let the whole Rome burn down, but the contract be executed".

 

And if your employer refuses to pay or tries to change the terms on the fly... well, let's say...

 

you better pay a goldpact

As long as the employer pays they don’t care if it forces them to do something outside the original contract. It says in the character creation screen on the order description.

 

I always had trouble with the Goldpact Knight role play wise because many enemy Paladins are Goldpact Knights and they all fight you on sight. It would be cool if they gave us diologue to ID ourselves and avoid the fight. When you are the Lord of Caed Nua “mercenaries” attack the keep and some of the Paladins are GP Knights. Also the one in the endless paths and at Magrans Fork. These guys would not be so successful if they fought themselves. I was a contractor after I got out of the military and while it’s not true mercenary work it’s similar (except your company can’t take contracts to fight allied governments, you aren’t true neutral)I can’t see a company lasting long if they take and act on contracts to fight itself, killing its own personnel.

 

The Darcozzi do at times fight themselves because they are royal guards for a noble family that’s broken so I get that but I don’t from GP Knights.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Torm51