WIZARD - BASIC & SPECIALISTS

[TygerxEyes]

In order to accommodate the request for multi-classing, PoE-2 has resulted in major and significant changes to many of the classes including massive changes in spell casters (wizards, priests, druids).  In truth, I think that these have diminished the classes in significant ways which is a little disappointing for myself personally... as I thought the wizard, priests, and druid classes were really nicely done by the end of PoE-1.  I am aware that some of these massive changes are also the result of players who did not like "per rest spell casting limits" and wanting "per encounter casting limits."  In any case, I will offer some thoughts on those matters at another point.

​PART I: WIZARD SPECIALISTS - Opposing Schools Limited, But Not Restricted

 

Without changing the overall structure of things, I would like to offer several observations regarding Wizard Specialists.  First, I would like to suggest that rather than be restricted from certain spell schools that, like their more powerful versions of spells from their specialty school, they have significantly weakened spells within their two opposing spell schools which they would not gain access to until they are +2 levels. So, Wizard (Evokers) would not access 2nd Level Spells from Conjuration and Transmutation Schools until 5th Level (when they have access to 3rd Level Spells from all other schools). Special Note: 2nd Level Conjuration and Transmutation Spells are still consider 2nd Level Spells but remain grayed out and cannot be learned or used until caster is higher level (+2 levels).
 

​Reasoning:

 

In traditional table-top games where entire school or schools are restricted, for example AD&D, Wizards had access to a lot of spells at each level which meant even with complete restriction of school(s) there were a lot of spells to choose from at each spell level (e.g., PH E1 Wizard 1st Level Spell List included 30 spells then by PH E2.0 1st Level Spell List included 45 spells).  In addition, AD&D (and similar games) almost always provided a vehicle and means for wizards to research their own spells - further increasing the number of spells that they could place in their spell book and access-memorize-use. In AD&D, Wizard Spells tended to be drawn from a single school though there were a good handful of spells that were drawn from (involved) 2 (and in some cases 3 schools cf., Guards & Wards Spell) schools (e.g., Alteration, Necromancy; Alteration, Enchantment; Abjuration, Conjuration/Summoning, etc.,). In less restrictive campaigns, Wizards were granted buffs when their mastered school was involved (less restrictive) and (even less restrictive) could all spells involving multiple schools even when opposing school was involved provided the spell did not exclusively involve opposing schools). Moreover, AD&D released a several volume series called Wizards Spell Compendium - Vol 1-4 (or something like it...) which contained every bloody spell they created including tons from the Dragon Magazine... so a lot​ was multiplied by several factors (e.g., by the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol 3 - the possible available spells on the lists for 1st, 2nd, 3rd Level Spells were will over a 100 spells at each level).

In PoE-2, Wizards have a pretty small selection of spells relative to table-top games like AD&D, most spells are single school spells, and wizards are not able to research new spells to further deepen the number.  Now, I am not saying that these limits do not make sense in the computerized variation - of course they do... but that means these limits make complete school restriction (let alone two​ schools) a much bigger deal and not at all the same as the balance in table-top and paper-pencil game like AD&D (as above 30, 45, and 100+ depending).  So, I believe a single​ school, let alone a two school restriction does not balance out with so few spells and unbalanced array of spells in the various schools  Moreover, PoE-2 does not have a balanced number of spells from each school at each level and some specialists would have access to notably fewer spells per spell level, too. So, PoE-2 school restrictions (remembering it is not even a single school but ​​two​ ​schools​) is not equivalent in terms of a balance.
 

By allowing specialist classes a somewhat delayed access, Wizard Specialists never gain the highest level spells with the +2 level delay (e.g., 9th and/or 10th level spells).  If you want a more restriction, you might limit their access to restricted schools to an even lower maximum spell level (e.g., specialists can only learn up to 5th level spells in opposing schools or​ maybe it could be intelligence dependent Specialty Wizards with Intelligence of 9-13 could only learn Opposing School Spells up to 4th level, Intelligence of 14-15 = 5th, Intelligence of 16-18 = 6th, and Intelligence = 19+ = 7th or whatever you might decide).

​By allowing them weakened versions, Wizard Specialists (Enchanters) could still learn and use weakened spells from opposing school(s), but these schools would be harder for them to learn (+2 levels higher as above) up to maximum spell level limit (as above): 

OPPOSING SCHOOL SPELLS - Specialists May Use Very Weakened Versions, But Are Not Barred From Opposing School - Rough Ideas :

 

                          - Effects: - 30 to -50% (Range, AoE, Effects)
                          - Interupt -20%
                          - Opponents Resistances +20%
                          - Duration: -20 to -30% On Non-Instantaneous
                          - Damage:  -30 to -50% (Round-Up)

​MASTERED SPELLS:

​Wizard Specialists should be restricted to mastering (memorized/non-tome spells selected) spells from their specialty.  It not only makes sense ~ after all, what self-respecting specialist would masters spells outside their most loved and preferred school (duh), but it also provides a slight advantage and/or incentive to be a generalist who can choose any spell to master. 

SIDE NOTE:

TRANSMUTER SPECIALISTS consider Wurm & Drake rather than Ogre (Creature Level increasing as Spell Caster Level Increases so balance with party/class levels) though I use Wizards normal Hit Points (not Wurm/Drakes)

 

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PART II: WIZARDS (GENERALISTS)​ - Consider minor advantages and incentives.

​Wizards, who chose to remain generalists, should have some of minor advantages and incentives.

 

Wizards (Generalists) should be allowed to master (memorize/non-spell book) spells from all schools.  In addition, Wizards (Generalists) might gain access to, and automatically learn, Arcane Assault (1st Level), Arcane Veil (2nd Level), and Arcane Slam (3rd Level) as their benefit for remaining generalists.  

 

Optionally, Wizard might be able to cast these spells 1 x Encounter (or for more restricted ability limit - cast any one, rather than each one, of these spells 1 x Encounter) which would not effect spells used per encounter, but additional uses for generalists would require them to have spell page in tome and use a regular per encounter spell casting. Generalists learn this while their colleagues learn their school specialists special powers.

 

Specialists might not be granted any access to these three spells at all - cannot learn or use them (more restrictive) or (less restrictive) might be allowed to learn them just like any other spell, but do not automatically gain or learn these spells but instead must find, learn, and write into book and get no free use.  Problem​ - Not sure how, Illusionists and Evokers feel about not having access to Arcane Veil, but oh well... unless my previous suggestion for specialists is implemented whereby they would have delayed access to weaker versions of whatever spell.

 

1ST LEVEL SPELL:      Arcane Assault [Evocation ?] - Weak Instant Short Range Missile Attack (Raw Magic)

2ND LEVEL SPELL:   Arcane Veil [Conjuration] - Gained Automatically Like Priest God Specials (Still Each Casting Is At Cost)

​3RD LEVEL SPELL:     Arcane Slam [Transmutation - Not Sure How This Is Not Evocation But Okay] - (Now 3rd) +0.5m Radius of Impact w/Damage 18-30 points

                                   (bumps due to increased level from 2nd to 3rd)

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​DISCLAIMER: In all honesty, I have never found enjoyment in playing specialists casters so I will still opt for single class Wizard (Generalists) over all else... but these are observations for balance given extreme difference between Wizard Specialists in AD&D (Paper-Pencil/Table Top) and PoE-1 (Computer).

Edited February 8, 2018 by TygerxEyes

[PhesojSS]

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1.  Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Honestly I think Wizards would be better if forced into a specialization with no maluses (like Paladins and Priests) that gives a passive ability beneficial to casting their chosen specialization. Evokers are the only ones who did this well the last I played a Wizard focused on casting, with the abilities granted by other specializations not being nearly as good.

 

If we want to keep generalists, do the above for specialists and give vanilla wizards some sort of useful active ability and/or passive.

[Torm51]

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1. Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

Why not?

[TygerxEyes]

PhesojSS & Torm,

​I tend to take the approach that I have contributed to be a Beta Player and I will share my thoughts with the hope that they are read.  I will post later about alternative systems for multi-class (really Dual Class from Classic AD&D as true multi-classing involves divided experience and parallel class advancement) which I do not believe can be incorporated especially in the initial release (but who knows) with the hope that Obsidian will pull-out feedback that works for them or that they see the logic in... for future games PoE-2+ or PoE-3 or whatever.

​One of the reasons I wrote (as you noted is that Wizards and Spell Casters were, IMHO, were nerfed quiet hard to accommodate 'per encounter' requests and multi-classing because of their approach to multi-classing (kinda' like the WoC AD&D E3+ d20) rather and other alternatives.

​I figure I paid to help... which might include 'bug identification' as well as 'feedback on play and game mechanics' - so I will offer such comments and reserve the right to be critical later if I feel it necessary - taking the "if you do not offer comments (or vote or whatever) then do you have a right to complain after the fact."  If I participate in a positive fashion, I might just get some things changed, even if just some of them, and, as noted, then the right to be critical review (positive and/or negative) or note what I regard as weak points in PoE-2 or PoE-2+ (DLC/Expansion) - so, I feel perfectly comfortable.

​One of the advantages to my age is I have been around RPGs since D&D was in paperback (Blackmoor, Gods Demi-Gods & Heroes - still own copies) and Judges Guild existed (own pristine copies of several original City States) and have played under various systems AD&D, D&D, Arcanum, Palladium, Arduin (Paperback & E2), Call of Cthulhu, and so on. So, Obsidian is the developer and has a lot of game design experience and exceptional talent in graphics and software and video game development... but I feel very comfortable with my experience, comments, and feedback.

 

​Regardless, I do appreciate your thoughts and comments - you might be right with no changes though in absence of any feedback no changes will be made.  

​

Cheers & Appreciate Your Thoughts...

​

 

 

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1.  Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

 

 

 

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1. Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

Why not?

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by TygerxEyes

[JerekKruger]

 

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1. Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

Why not?

 

I'd say it definitely will change. The only question is whether it'll change before the release, or change at some point down the line.

[Torm51]

In order to accommodate the request for multi-classing, PoE-2 has resulted in major and significant changes to many of the classes including massive changes in spell casters (wizards, priests, druids).  In truth, I think that these have diminished the classes in significant ways which is a little disappointing for myself personally... as I thought the wizard, priests, and druid classes were really nicely done by the end of PoE-1.  I am aware that some of these massive changes are also the result of players who did not like "per rest spell casting limits" and wanting "per encounter casting limits."  In any case, I will offer some thoughts on those matters at another point.

 

​PART I: WIZARD SPECIALISTS - Opposing Schools Limited, But Not Restricted

 

Without changing the overall structure of things, I would like to offer several observations regarding Wizard Specialists.  First, I would like to suggest that rather than be restricted from certain spell schools that, like their more powerful versions of spells from their specialty school, they have significantly weakened spells within their two opposing spell schools which they would not gain access to until they are +2 levels. So, Wizard (Evokers) would not access 2nd Level Spells from Conjuration and Transmutation Schools until 5th Level (when they have access to 3rd Level Spells from all other schools). Special Note: 2nd Level Conjuration and Transmutation Spells are still consider 2nd Level Spells but remain grayed out and cannot be learned or used until caster is higher level (+2 levels).

 

​Reasoning:

 

In traditional table-top games where entire school or schools are restricted, for example AD&D, Wizards had access to a lot of spells at each level which meant even with complete restriction of school(s) there were a lot of spells to choose from at each spell level.  In addition, AD&D (and similar games) almost always provided a vehicle and means for wizards to research their own spells - further increasing the number of spells that they could place in their spell book and access-memorize-use. In less restrictive campaigns, Wizard Spells, which were drawn from multiple schools, and Wizards could use any spell that had their school listed among the various schools which allowed access to more spells and kept the restricted spells lower.  Moreover, AD&D released a several volume series called Magic Compendium (or something like it...) which contained every bloody spell they created including tons from the Dragon Magazine... so a lot​ was multiplied by several factors.

 

In PoE-2, Wizards have a pretty small selection of spells relative to table-top games like AD&D, most spells are single school spells, and wizards are not able to research new spells to further deepen the number.  Now, I am not saying that these limits do not make sense in the computerized variation - of course they do... but that means these limits make complete school restriction (let alone two​ schools) a much bigger deal and not at all the same as the balance in table-top and paper-pencil game like AD&D (i.e., as I remember it by AD&D E2 there were around 30 1st level spells in the PH which paired with Tome of Magic and related materials resulted in 80-120+ spells for most 1st to 5th level spells.  So, I believe a school, let alone a two school restriction does not balance out with so few spells and unbalanced array of spells from various schools  Moreover, PoE-2 does not have a balanced number of spells from each school at each level and some specialists would have access to notably fewer spells per spell level, too. So, PoE-2 school restrictions (remembering it is not even a single school but ​​two​ ​schools​) is not equivalent in terms of a balance.

 

By allowing specialist classes a somewhat delayed access, Wizard Specialists never gain the highest level spells with the +2 level delay (e.g., 9th and/or 10th level spells).  If you want a more restriction, you might limit their access to restricted schools to an even lower maximum spell level (e.g., specialists can only learn up to 5th level spells in opposing schools or​ maybe it could be intelligence dependent Specialty Wizards with Intelligence of 9-13 could only learn Opposing School Spells up to 4th level, Intelligence of 14-15 = 5th, Intelligence of 16-18 = 6th, and Intelligence = 19+ = 7th or whatever you might decide).

 

​By allowing them weakened versions, Wizard Specialists (Enchanters) could still learn and use weakened spells from opposing school(s), but these schools would be harder for them to learn (+2 levels higher as above) up to maximum spell level limit (as above): 

 

OPPOSING SCHOOL SPELLS - Specialists May Use Very Weakened Versions, But Are Not Barred From Opposing School - Rough Ideas :

 

                          - Effects: - 30 to -50% (Range, AoE, Effects)

                          - Interupt -20%

                          - Opponents Resistances +20%

                          - Duration: -20 to -30% On Non-Instantaneous

                          - Damage:  -30 to -50% (Round-Up)

 

​MASTERED SPELLS:

 

​Wizard Specialists should be restricted to mastering (memorized/non-tome spells selected) spells from their specialty.  It not only makes sense ~ after all, what self-respecting specialist would masters spells outside their most loved and preferred school (duh), but it also provides a slight advantage and/or incentive to be a generalist who can choose any spell to master. 

 

SIDE NOTE:

 

TRANSMUTER SPECIALISTS consider Wurm & Drake rather than Ogre (Creature Level increasing as Spell Caster Level Increases so balance with party/class levels) though I use Wizards normal Hit Points (not Wurm/Drakes)

 

-------

 

PART II: WIZARDS (GENERALISTS)​ - Consider minor advantages and incentives.

​Wizards, who chose to remain generalists, should have some of minor advantages and incentives.

 

Wizards (Generalists) should be allowed to master (memorize/non-spell book) spells from all schools.  In addition, Wizards (Generalists) might gain access to, and automatically learn, Arcane Assault (1st Level), Arcane Veil (2nd Level), and Arcane Slam (3rd Level) as their benefit for remaining generalists.  

 

Optionally, Wizard might be able to cast these spells 1 x Encounter (or for more restricted ability limit - cast any one, rather than each one, of these spells 1 x Encounter) which would not effect spells used per encounter, but additional uses for generalists would require them to have spell page in tome and use a regular per encounter spell casting. Generalists learn this while their colleagues learn their school specialists special powers.

 

Specialists might not be granted any access to these three spells at all - cannot learn or use them (more restrictive) or (less restrictive) might be allowed to learn them just like any other spell, but do not automatically gain or learn these spells but instead must find, learn, and write into book and get no free use.  Problem​ - Not sure how, Illusionists and Evokers feel about not having access to Arcane Veil, but oh well... unless my previous suggestion for specialists is implemented whereby they would have delayed access to weaker versions of whatever spell.

 

1ST LEVEL SPELL:      Arcane Assault [Evocation ?] - Weak Instant Short Range Missile Attack (Raw Magic)

2ND LEVEL SPELL:   Arcane Veil [Conjuration] - Gained Automatically Like Priest God Specials (Still Each Casting Is At Cost)

​3RD LEVEL SPELL:     Arcane Slam [Transmutation - Not Sure How This Is Not Evocation But Okay] - (Now 3rd) +0.5m Radius of Impact w/Damage 18-30 points

                                   (bumps due to increased level from 2nd to 3rd)

-------

 

​DISCLAIMER: In all honesty, I have never found enjoyment in playing specialists casters so I will still opt for single class Wizard (Generalists) over all else... but these are observations for balance given extreme difference between Wizard Specialists in AD&D (Paper-Pencil/Table Top) and PoE-1 (Computer).

Wanted to apologize for not giving your post a thorough read was in class at the time and responding to the other brash post lol.  Although my favorite class is the Paladin I loved Vancian Casters in POE 1 (and D and D) and really like Wizard/Mages in all settings (after Paladins of course ).  When they started developing POE 2 I KNEW this would happen because the Vancian system was going away, they had to somehow make them less powerful, for in game balance reasons they cant be that strong on a per encounter basis.  This is why I DID NOT want multi classing but the majority beat me so here it is.  

 

I really like your suggestions and would 100% support everything you said, your experience is evident and it makes sense.  That being said I think A LOT could be fixed if they REDUCED CAST TIMES!  If they just did that I think it would go a long way.  What do you think?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Torm51

[Torm51]

 

 

Wizards are just plain trash in POE 2, with all the nerfs from POE 1. Good luck playing one. The Devs over nerfed all the spells casters in this version and it will likely NOT change.

Why not?

 

I'd say it definitely will change. The only question is whether it'll change before the release, or change at some point down the line.

 

Hopefully at release but I doubt it.

[Yosharian]

I like the concept of Specialist Wizards getting access to restricted spells but at later spell levels than normal (whether it's +1 or +2), but I don't like the idea of weakened/nerfed spells.

 

Another alternative could be to make it into a feat that you could choose, for example:

 

Spell Research I

Gain access to level I spells that are normally restricted by your Wizard Specialist School.

 

Spell Research II

Gain access to level II spells... etc

Edited February 9, 2018 by Yosharian

[hilfazer]

I really like your suggestions and would 100% support everything you said, your experience is evident and it makes sense.  That being said I think A LOT could be fixed if they REDUCED CAST TIMES!  If they just did that I think it would go a long way.  What do you think?

Everyone and his brother asks for faster spell casting but i don't think i've seen anyone mentioning how it will affect interruptions.

If casting becomes faster interruptions will suffer since there will be smaller time window when you can interrupt. I'm cool with faster casting but with changes to interruptions as well. There are interruption modals that have recovery penalty - it needs to go. It already needs to go since spells got faster by one second and slower attacks speed is counter productive if you want to interrupt.

Edited February 10, 2018 by hilfazer

[DexGames]

Maybe Specialists could have shorter Cast Times in their given School, while a Generalist would stay as it is at the moment.

Just my two cents.

 

Cast Times overall doesn't bother me that much personally, but a lot of you are really pissed off about it. 

[Can understand that]

[Osvir]

Single Class Wizard. Make the Wizard you deserve, not the one you need... xD or pick the Sub-Class you want to play (to get the Talents), and then use Cheat Codes to learn whatever spell you want. I think that's possible? (Isn't there a "LearnSkill" string somewhere? I've only used it for Gold and Experience in the Beta, to try out various features and also potential strength).
 

Wizard/Wizard ("Specialist Wizard", "Focused Wizard"... full title, or "Arcane Wizard")
Would be cool if Wizard could Multiclass with themselves. Illusionist/Evoker for instance.

A) No restrictions.
B) Can only pick and cast spells from those 2 Schools (A Sub-Class Wizard can still cast spells from 3 Schools).

Maybe possible to mod in.
 

Spell Research I

Gain access to level I spells that are normally restricted by your Wizard Specialist School.

 

Spell Research II

Gain access to level II spells... etc

This.

Then again, would you really want to spend 2 levels of points just to be able to cast a Spell outside your characters preferred School (being specialized in those spells with talents and such)? Seems like a bit of waste mechanically. Roleplaying-wise, many applications

[tinysalamander]

Another alternative could be to make it into a feat that you could choose, for example:

 

Spell Research I

Gain access to level I spells that are normally restricted by your Wizard Specialist School.

 

Spell Research II

Gain access to level II spells... etc

 

So, you pay a talent point to get access, then another to learn a spell, and then repeat the whole process. Sounds wasteful. Artifically inflates the number of talents without actually giving much. 1 talent that allows you to cast other school (your highest -1, or -2) is fine. This, eww…