Weapon balance and comparision after 2/2/18 patch

[Ryz009]

Kind of weird that pistols are effected by strength. Its a firearm why does it care how much strength I'm using. (and so do wands?!? shouldn't the strength scaling be melee only because it's kind of dumb otherwise).

 

Rip my pistol mage from before I guess. This sucks.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Ryz009

[clouseau64]

 

 

It's all part of the boredom masterplan. Let's take the most boring part of combat (i.e. watching your men sit through recovery time), make it longer, and ensure it can't be skipped by preventing 0-recovery builds. Now everybody must sit through the slow drag—with an attack speed system where a single penalty weighs more than your stacked bonuses to boot! Since you can't go melee with no armor... there you have it.

 

 

I must agree with you on this. while i welcome the balancing and the fact that combat will last a little bit longer with the reduced dps, i think that nerfing base damage or boosting HP would have been much preferable route than this. characters spend more than 80% of their time idle. moreover what was the point of nerfing down movement in patch one to boost it again relatively in patch 2.

[dunehunter]

On a second glance, blunt weapon mace and warhammer seems really crappy. They are too bad compare to Club right now, bad modal bad damage, slow speed.

 

Blunt weapon seems way behind other single hand weapon except club now. Both modal of mace and warhammer seems unnecessary because blunt is already a better type than slash and pierce, giving more penetration or reduce AR is pretty useless.

 

For weapon like Sabre, their modal overcomes their weakness of low Pen, but for Warhammer and Mace, modal doesn't overcome their weakness, but make them worse.

Edited February 9, 2018 by dunehunter

[dunehunter]

Battle axe modal is stupid too, the bleeding debuff duration is super long so you will just want to use the modal once and turn it off. Specially if you have a fast weapon in offhand, you can just do a Full Attack ability with Axe modal on and put bleeding debuff on all enemies without suffering extra recovery time.

[gGeorg]

Good post, good tweaks.

Is it possible switch role of Hatchet and Sabre ?

 

In reality, Sabre is defensive weapon, Hatchet is damage focused.

Just switch numbers for 2 weapon models.

 

Sabre should dominate in defense not dmg output.

 

Quarterstaffs is typical defensive weapon too. acc bonus could be changed to defense bonus.

 

Please do not allow to equip silly dual wield like dual spears.

---

I am curious if weapon deflection bonus (or modal bonus) is used against ranged attacks?

Edited February 9, 2018 by gGeorg

[morhilane]

Quarterstaffs is typical defensive weapon too. acc bonus could be changed to defense bonus.

 

 

Quaterstaff's modal is a deflection bonus already.

[anfoglia]

I'm not wild about the modals. POE weapons already have distinguishing properties (e.g., base damage, damage type, speed, interrupt, and bonuses like reach, split damage, better crits, etc.). And those are plenty for the player to consider when picking weapons for a particular build. You don't really want an additional layer of, "does this have a good modal or not?" Which is probably part of the reason why many modals seem low-value. But the fact that they're low-value and common also makes them feel insubstantial as a way of defining your character. I guess the upside is that there's less of a "lock-in" effect than if the bonuses were large and the proficiency points were rare. Still, I wonder if a small, flat bonus wouldn't be better (higher accuracy, faster recovery, more pen, % chance to proc a double-attack, whatever). Or if you really wanted to go wild, give the player a choice between two upgrades.

[theBalthazar]

Question : Bonus of damage of sabre is additive or multiplicative, base damage or not ?

 

There is a diminushing return with upgrades ? (exceptionnal etc.)

[dunehunter]

Question : Bonus of damage of sabre is additive or multiplicative, base damage or not ?

 

There is a diminushing return with upgrades ? (exceptionnal etc.)

 

It is additive with all other damage bonus like sneak attack.

[dunehunter]

The maximum gain of +2 Penetration is doubling your damage. This only happens if your penetration is -2 or -3 under enemy's armor rate. In other case, +2 Penetraion gives less gain.

 

+100% Recovery time will ususally reduce your damage by half.

 

Conclusion, modal that +2 Pen but +100 recovery time is 100% useless for autoattacks.

 

It is only useful if you put a fast weapon in offhand and keep using Full Attack abilities, in this way you ignore all main hand modal penalties.

Edited February 9, 2018 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

Conclusion, modal that +2 Pen but +100 recovery time is 100% useless for autoattacks.

Pretty much that.

Or to be more specific (from auto-attack perspective):

- it is almost useless if your current PEN-AR = -2 (50%->100% going through); or -4 (25%->50%)

- it is good if your current PEN-AR = -3 (25%->75%) (that's a x3 damage increase; and in this case it's ok to have your recovery doubled)

- it is bad in other cases, meaning that enabling this modal actually decreases dps, by up to x2 times

[dunehunter]

 

Conclusion, modal that +2 Pen but +100 recovery time is 100% useless for autoattacks.

Pretty much that.

Or to be more specific (from auto-attack perspective):

- it is almost useless if your current PEN-AR = -2 (50%->100% going through); or -4 (25%->50%)

- it is good if your current PEN-AR = -3 (25%->75%) (that's a x3 damage increase; and in this case it's ok to have your recovery doubled)

- it is bad in other cases, meaning that enabling this modal actually decreases dps, by up to x2 times

 

 

Ah I forget about the -3 case, and yeah it is x3 not x2 my bad

 

Yet this is too situational to use.  Why one number diff makes so much difference in damage 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

Conclusion, modal that +2 Pen but +100 recovery time is 100% useless for autoattacks.

Pretty much that.

Or to be more specific (from auto-attack perspective):

- it is almost useless if your current PEN-AR = -2 (50%->100% going through); or -4 (25%->50%)

- it is good if your current PEN-AR = -3 (25%->75%) (that's a x3 damage increase; and in this case it's ok to have your recovery doubled)

- it is bad in other cases, meaning that enabling this modal actually decreases dps, by up to x2 times

 

 

Ah I forget about the -3 case, and yeah it is x3 not x2 my bad

 

Yet this is too situational to use.  Why one number diff makes so much difference in damage 

 

 

 

It would be marginally useful if the AI scripting was smart enough to switch you back and forth when it was optimal. As it is though since the AI scripting can't handle weapon switching and only the most detail-oriented of players would bother, it's useless.

 

Even with good AI it's not as effective as other modals, though.

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

Conclusion, modal that +2 Pen but +100 recovery time is 100% useless for autoattacks.

Pretty much that.

Or to be more specific (from auto-attack perspective):

- it is almost useless if your current PEN-AR = -2 (50%->100% going through); or -4 (25%->50%)

- it is good if your current PEN-AR = -3 (25%->75%) (that's a x3 damage increase; and in this case it's ok to have your recovery doubled)

- it is bad in other cases, meaning that enabling this modal actually decreases dps, by up to x2 times

 

 

Ah I forget about the -3 case, and yeah it is x3 not x2 my bad

 

Yet this is too situational to use.  Why one number diff makes so much difference in damage 

 

 

 

It would be marginally useful if the AI scripting was smart enough to switch you back and forth when it was optimal. As it is though since the AI scripting can't handle weapon switching and only the most detail-oriented of players would bother, it's useless.

 

Even with good AI it's not as effective as other modals, though.

 

 

Yeah it is tooooo situtional, at least give us a Pen-Armor range for us to use this kind of modal. Now only -3 is the only moment u will want to use it, but who bothers?

[MaxQuest]

I've made a similar number-crunching to that from the speed mod thread:

 

Auto-attack DPS:

 

- 2H: (22+27)/2 = 24.5; 24.5/4.7 = ~5.21 dps

- DW_SLOW: (15+20)/2 = 17.5; 17.5 / 3.51 = ~4.98 dps

- DW_FAST: (11+15)/2 = 13; 13 / 2.61 = ~4.98 dps

- 1H_SLOW: (15+20)/2 = 17.5; 17.5 * 1.24 (from +12 acc) = 21.7; 21.7/4.7 = ~4.61 dps

- 1H_FAST: (11+15)/2 = 13; 13 * 1.24 (from +12 acc) = 16.12; 16.12/3.5 = ~4.60 dps

- SLOW_SHIELD: (15+20)/2 = 17.5; 17.5/4.7 = ~3.72 dps

- FAST_SHIELD: (11+15)/2 = 13; 13/3.5 = ~3.71 dps

 

PrimaryAttack DMG (without damage bonuses):

 

- 2H: 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 17.5 dmg in 3.51s

- DW_FAST: 13.0 dmg in 2.61s

- 1H_SLOW: 21.7 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 16.12 dmg in 3.5s

- SLOW_SHIELD: 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 13 dmg in 3.5s

 

FullAttack DMG (without damage bonuses):

 

- 2H: 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 35.0 dmg in 4.21s

- DW_FAST: 26.0 dmg in 3.11s

- 1H_SLOW: 21.7 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 16.2 dmg in 3.5s

- SLOW_SHIELD: 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 13 dmg in 3.5s

 

As you can see DW_SLOW results in highest amount of damage from Full Attack. But (!) they inflict it over 4.21s, while faster weapons do it much faster, and there is more time left for auto-attacking.

Let's check how much damage such attacks deal over 4.7s:

 

PrimaryAttack DMG (over 4.7s!)(without damage bonuses):

 

- 2H: 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 23.42 = 17.5 dmg in 3.51s + ~5.92 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.19s remaining)

- DW_FAST: 23.40 = 13.0 dmg in 2.61s + ~10.40 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 2.09s remaining)

- 1H_SLOW: 21.70 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 21.64 dmg = 16.12 dmg in 3.5s + ~5.52 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

- SLOW_SHIELD: 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 17.45 dmg = 13 dmg in 3.5s + ~4.45 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

 

FullAttack DMG (over 4.7s!) (without damage bonuses):

 

- 2H: 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 37.44 dmg = 35.0 dmg in 4.21s + ~2.44 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 0.49s remaining)

- DW_FAST: 33.92 dmg = 26.0 dmg in 3.11s + ~7.92 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.59s remaining)

- 1H_SLOW: 21.70 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 21.72 dmg = 16.2 dmg in 3.5s + ~5.52 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

- SLOW_SHIELD: 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 17.45 dmg = 13 dmg in 3.5s+ ~4.45 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

 

And let's make one more experiment. For example imagine that Primary and Full attacks come with a +30% damage bonus (like FoD):

 

PrimaryAttack DMG (over 4.7s!)(with 30% bonus damage on PA):

 

- 2H: 31.85 = 1.3 * 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 28.67 = 1.3 * 17.5 dmg in 3.51s + ~5.92 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.19s remaining)

- DW_FAST: 27.30 = 1.3 * 13.0 dmg in 2.61s + ~10.40 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 2.09s remaining)

- 1H_SLOW: 28.21 = 1.3 * 21.70 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 26.59 dmg = 1.3 * 16.12 dmg in 3.5s + ~5.52 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

- SLOW_SHIELD: 22.75 = 1.3 * 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 21.35 dmg = 1.3 * 13 dmg in 3.5s + ~4.45 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

 

FullAttack DMG (over 4.7s!) (with 30% bonus damage on FA):

 

- 2H: 31.85 = 1.3 * 24.5 dmg in 4.7s

- DW_SLOW: 47.94 dmg = 1.3 * 35.0 dmg in 4.21s + ~2.44 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 0.49s remaining)

- DW_FAST: 41.72 dmg = 1.3 * 26.0 dmg in 3.11s + ~7.92 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.59s remaining)

- 1H_SLOW: 28.21 = 1.3 * 21.70 dmg in 4.7s

- 1H_FAST: 26.58 dmg = 1.3 * 16.2 dmg in 3.5s + ~5.52 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

- SLOW_SHIELD: 22.75 = 1.3 * 17.5 dmg in 4.7s

- FAST_SHIELD: 21.35 dmg = 1.3 * 13 dmg in 3.5s+ ~4.45 (auto-attack dmg, as there was 1.2s remaining)

 

Slowliness feeling of 4s recovery and FA aside, it's actually quite nicely balanced.

And if recovery stays at 3s and 4s for fast and slow weapons respectively, it might need just a few minor tweaks (if we keep considering 1 acc to roughly provide a +2% dps increase):

- the bonus for single-wielding increased from +12 to +15

- also it wouldn't hurt to have the base deflection of shields increased to +15 as well.

- and Balthazar also gave a nice idea of non-dw weapons dealing max damage on Full Attacks. This suggestion goes well here.

 

So you either dual-wield, and have a by ~30% higher attack rate; or single-wield and get ~30% dmg increase (due to higher accuracy); or take a shield and effectively make attacker lose his 30% damage bonus (at least when he targets deflection)

Edited February 20, 2018 by MaxQuest