Wizard's Level 0 Ability

[dunehunter]

 

This is easy to solve, ties spiritual form’s attributes to power level like monk’s fist. Then let Res boost power level.

 

Yes good idea.

 

But already the case for part. Or you cut the strength/resolve aspect and reinforce the power level aspect ?

 

But it is not ideal because here is no way to increase the value other than by the level up, with your solution.

 

Monk is not in the same case. There is no massive list of spells in monk panel.

 

Obsidian lets be very clear that the "window of level up" is mixed between PASSIVE and SPELLS ... If you have 90% of spells. You can not have 50% of passive. You have 10% ...

 

 

 

Contribution of the offensive attribute : 33 % (max without buff)

Contribution of spiritshifting : 15 %

 

With your system : 33 % / 2 (we cut the pear in half) = 15 % ~

 

Contribution without offensive stat scale = 15 + 15 = 30 %.

 

Min-max are not happy : p

If Resolve boost power level, either level up or increase Res can gives u more.

 

But for a real solution of shifter. I post a suggestion here

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95087-single-class-druid-shifter-subclass/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1968851

[theBalthazar]

Ok so it is an another way to tell resolve become the offensive attribute ? ok that's a good idea.

 

For me, this is the best solution.

[divjak]

 

point is that this game was designed from ground up for stat block with might, and everything worked then just fine.

 

Now when they changed to strength, it brought a boatload of issues, and if they dont plan to revert back, they will need to make class specific rules, which bring another boatload of issues with multiclassing like in DnD.

 

Might type of stat block was robust, worked the same for every class, and I dont see any good reason why would you change that, its a prime example of fixing what is not broken to break it, only arguments against that were of emotional nature, that it doesn't feel DnD where all wizards must be frail weaklings

To that a I agree mostly. They are possibly breaking more stuff while they want to patch up resolve which was a dump stat for almost everyone because concentration was no longer bound to it.

 

But instead of adding something new and useful to resolve (like for example that it influences afflictions on you) while leaving the rest of the stats as they used to be - they toppled the whole thing over.

 

While I'm not totally against the change when I only look at STR and RES I also fear that this change may lead to a whole string of consequences that are not intended. Like now we will suddenly have nukers and healers with a lot of deflection. Before the change they were strong, now they are masters of melee defense... and stuff like that.

 

Still the druid is not really gimped with this change. Still works perfectly well. It's just not possible any more to min-max him in such a way that he can do everything very well that a druid can possibly do. Don't know if this is a bad thing to be honest.

 

resolve was not a dump stat if you play POTD 1 save hardcore, on every char(unless you had another means to avoid damage through abilities or items on players that were not supposed to take damage all the time), and was always pumped on those you expect to  take damage, another thing is when you save scumming, then you can finish the game with all stats at 10

 

 

stat block was fine, you had 2 offensive stats,  2 defensive stats, and 2 utility stats

 

Offensive

Might- amount of impact that you do, be it damage or healing

Perception- ability to hit, crit, and interrupt 

 

Defensive

Constitution- ability to take damage

Resolve- ability  to  avoid damage and interrupt(which is hugely important for stuff like potions, second wind, and defensive buffs)

 

Utility-those affect both offense and defense

Dexterity- faster attacks, but also because your recovery is faster you can lets say drink your potion sooner in those o **** moments

Intelligence- affects aoe and duration of both buffs and debuffs

 

 

Every stat meant something,  and this robust system allowed you to play with the builds for hours, especially now with multiclassing, just by changing to strength, you change  the balance ratio and all went to hell, just by doing that without going into details, you have cut at least 50% of viable builds, and lots of built-in class features concerning paladins, druids and so on

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[Boeroer]

That's not true. I nearly finished an ultimate run with a barb who had 3 RES and only got killed because of a bug with Battle-Forged + Second Wind (making Battle Forged hit you - which is deadly).

 

I only played PotD except for my first playthrough on normal (which I cancelled because it was too easy). I can't count my playthroughs but I put 3K+ hours into that game. So - I'm not a total noob when it comes to character building and mechanics in PoE.

 

Lots of my melee builds had low or even completely dumped RES because you could easily counter it with items that boost concentration and/or spells/potions like Holy Meditation or Spirit Shield - while pumping self heals with tons of MIG and INT and Vet's Recovery, 14 survival, potions of Infuse with Vital Essence and whatnot. That way you could circumvent the problems of low deflection and concentration completely while focusing 95% on offense and stay pretty sturdy - which is fun I have to admit - but I don't consider it to be good attribute design. 

 

Resolve was quite unimportant if you didn't want to build a deflection monster.

 

And now in the first version of the Deadfire beta it was even more unimportant because concentration wasn't even tied to it anymore and the endurance/health system got simplified because "some players didn't get it". Now you can be healed nonstop. So they had to come up with something they could bind resolve to. I just don't think that the current solution was the best way to do that.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[divjak]

That's not true. I nearly finished an ultimate run with a barb who had 3 RES and only got killed because of a bug with Battle-Forged + Second Wind (making Battle Forged hit you - which is deadly).

 

I only played PotD except for my first playthrough on normal (which I cancelled because it was too easy). I can't count my playthroughs but I put 3K+ hours into that game. So - I'm not a total noob when it comes to character building and mechanics in PoE.

 

Lots of my melee builds had low or even completely dumped RES because you could easily counter it with items that boost concentration and/or spells/potions like Holy Meditation or Spirit Shield - while pumping self heals with tons of MIG and INT and Vet's Recovery, 14 survival, potions of Infuse with Vital Essence and whatnot. That way you could circumvent the problems of low deflection and concentration completely while focusing 95% on offense and stay pretty sturdy - which is fun I have to admit - but I don't consider it to be good attribute design. 

 

Resolve was quite unimportant if you didn't want to build a deflection monster.

 

And now in the first version of the Deadfire beta it was even more unimportant because concentration wasn't even tied to it anymore and the endurance/health system got simplified because "some players didn't get it". Now you can be healed nonstop. So they had to come up with something they could bind resolve to. I just don't think that the current solution was the best way to do that.

lots of solo builds have low resolve because most of the time you use stealth to completely bypass 90% of fights, and in other fights you cheese kite and have summon figurines to take hits for you, while you focus on offense to finish fights fast, and that completely falls under 'use items and abilities to avoid getting hit'.

That also works because you know the game inside out, and where every item is located

 

 

as for your barb, you basically need to waste other classes resources on you and items to nullify your weakness, so its fair, but thats the choice you made, and its good that you can play like that. Actually its a sign of a good system that allows you to play this way and still manage to beat it

 

 

then again is not really an  argument against stat system

Imagine you play PnP DnD at the table with your friends, and make barbarian with 8 strength, because when you start you know there are gauntlets of ogre power just behind a corner.

or

you make a thief with min dex and strength, but maxed cha and int, because you wont to pass all social and investigation checks, and you have a priest in your party that ill buff your combat stats every fight  :D

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[Boeroer]

An ultimate barb is a solo barb...

 

Point is that RES was a dump stat for many builds if you knew the mechanics - and in Deadfire beta 1 it was even more the case. Now it's not - which basically is a good thing. The way to achieve this may be debateable though because it entails a lot of other changes that might be bad. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[JFutral]

While I am no fan of money-ball strategies, one thing to keep in mind regarding stats is what sort of made actual stat distribution almost moot, almost ridiculously so, in PoE I was the proliferation of stat enhancing items and resting bonuses (never mind spells). In the right combination one could easily boost any attribute by as much as 6-7 points.

 

Obviously this being a beta and not a complete game yet, we are still in limbo about how that may change.

 

Personally I think 15 points to spread around is about 2 points too few. But like I have chanted regularly, I want epic heroes not common schmucks as my player characters.

 

Joe

[BrettNLowe]

For anyone who doesn't understand that Resolve was a dump stat in POE1, you have to look no further than 6th level priest spell Crowns for the Faithful, which adds a whopping 25 points of Resolve as a buff. Only one other buff goes into double digits (Champion's Boon), and it is a mere +10. Can you imagine a +25 buff for any other stat besides Resolve? It would be ludicrously overpowered.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Wizards do get grimoire, which is kinda like their level 0 feature

I don't think that's a very good substitute, even with trinkets out. I don't think it has to be much, but something like Arcane Assault or Arcane Veil separate from the spells per encounter would be pretty cool and give them one more thing before going into basic attacks or bomb throwing.

[Answermancer]

For anyone who doesn't understand that Resolve was a dump stat in POE1, you have to look no further than 6th level priest spell Crowns for the Faithful, which adds a whopping 25 points of Resolve as a buff. Only one other buff goes into double digits (Champion's Boon), and it is a mere +10. Can you imagine a +25 buff for any other stat besides Resolve? It would be ludicrously overpowered.

 

This is a great point, actually.

 

I remember when I first noticed that it gives +25 Res and was like "that's cool, holy ****."

 

I never really considered why it was possible for them to do that though, or like you say, that it would be impossible to do with basically any other stat.

[Wormerine]

Wasn’t “Crown of the faithful” completely broken though? I am not someone who likes to do a math, while playing RPGs but I did find that this spell pretty much wins encounters. Someone killed me? Cast “crown” and just not die next time.

[Boeroer]

Crowns for the Faithful in PoE is pretty strong, yes. But there are stronger priest spells. It is strong though not only because of +25 resolve (which would add a stackable +25 bonus to every party member's deflection) but also because +6 INT is very useful for anybody who uses duration- and/or AoE based abilites - like barbarians with Heart of Fury, basically all casters and so on. The combination of +6 PER (= +6 ACC) and +6 INT makes it very good for DoT spells like Shining Beacon whioch gain damage multiplicatively from crits AND INT. Not so much the RES - but +25 deflection is nice as well of course.

 

The OP thing is that it completely stacked with the spell that I believe to be on of the most powerful buffs on PoE1: Devotions for the Faithful. Together your whole party will get +4 MIG, +6 INT, +26 accuracy, +25 deflection and the enemy would get -10 MIG and -20 accuracy. It's like a win button.

 

Priests' level-0 ability Holy Radiance stayed in while the wizards' Arcane Assault got removed. I wonder why? Maybe because with this new system grimoires as a trinket have a lot more impact than in PoE1.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[DozingDragon]

I may have lost track of things, but are certain grimoires still also supposed to provide bonuses in addition to more/exclusive spells?

[theBalthazar]

and here at realase of the game, we discover that the grimoires will all bring -30% cast time. Obsidian had planned everything from the beginning and laughed at us.  Seeing us criticize the slowness of the casters : p

[deneweth]

It can be both a good thing that resolve isn't a dump stat and also a problem that hybrid classes that were already multi-ability dependent now need another ability.  This matter is going to be much further muddled by dual-classes, most of which are multi-ability dependent on top of having lower power levels.  From there you have to add on scaling.  In PoE 1 it was possible to get most of your party +2 or +3 items in most of their 'primary' stats while maintaining the essential cloak of protection, ring of overseeing, or class specific accessory.  Now that cloaks and necklaces are separate slots it should be easier.  Godlikes will still have problems without helmets.

 

The problem was that resolve only gave benefits that were attainable elsewhere.  Deflection was much easier to get from items/buffs than spell duration.  Deflection is only worth getting so much for non-tanks, where as say accuracy is worth stacking as high as you can get.

 

I'm starting to just wish stats were reduced in potency at higher values or there was an increasing cost point buy system since they seem to want stats to go from 8 to 16 anyways.