Thoughts on Wizard Summoned Weapons

[Heijoushin]

Frankly, I was always surprised in PoE1 at just how good summoned weapons were. I mean, Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is a game changer all on its own. But this was probably because, as thelee said, we're used to them being garbage in the infinity engine games.

 

One other disadvantage to summoned weapons: you need to plan ahead and take a relevant weapon proficiency. Fine for Concelhaut's staff on level 1, but you really need to meta game to prepare for Citzal's Spirit Lance on spell level 5.

[Gromnir]

well at least we have dropped the silly notion that 'cause a summoned weapon replaces equipped it should, by default, last as long as the fight.  good.  and it seems as if this is no longer a generalized summoned weapons concerns thread as most seem to admit spiritual priest weapons is somewhere 'tween good and op and the other summoned weapons is either situational useful or need be nerfed a bit.  good.  is now simple a matter o' firebrand?  maybe change the thread title?  regardless, is nice to see progress. good.

 

gonna ignore the misrepresentation o' firebrand advantages by jk other than to say he might wanna ask boeroer why bittercut were so efficacious in poe... and why durance's staff were less so. we will note 2% guestimate by boeroer sounds a bit hyperbolic. heck, two o' the dragons in poe were particular vulnerable to burn damage, not to mention the numerous primordials, spirits, troll, and constructs. 

 

if a smallish lash (not the 50 or 60% nonsense) were added to firebrand, am doubting it would be game breaking, particular as the spell duration could be reduced a bit as a kinda balance.  other than a few boss fights, a 60 second base duration is largely wasted.  

 

feels like progress.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lamppost in Winter]

Speaking of the Spiritual Weapon, should all of them be a Corrode Lash? Seems like they should have different lashes depending on the deity.

[Gromnir]

Speaking of the Spiritual Weapon, should all of them be a Corrode Lash? Seems like they should have different lashes depending on the deity.

we assumed such uniformity is a placeholder quality for such an early build o' the beta, but am not certain.  worth asking, but we would be surprised if all such weapons were corrode at final release.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[OrangePulp]

Frankly, I was always surprised in PoE1 at just how good summoned weapons were. I mean, Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is a game changer all on its own. But this was probably because, as thelee said, we're used to them being garbage in the infinity engine games.

 

One other disadvantage to summoned weapons: you need to plan ahead and take a relevant weapon proficiency. Fine for Concelhaut's staff on level 1, but you really need to meta game to prepare for Citzal's Spirit Lance on spell level 5.

I honestly don't remember if they were always this way, as I don't think I used any on my initial playthrough at release, but summoned weapons in PoE1 are currently typed Universal (like soulbound weapons) so you get the benefit of any proficiency you have.

[Boeroer]

Their are no proficiencies in PoE1. Only Weapon Focus groups. I guess you meant that.

 

However, both don't work with universal weapons in Deadfire atm.

Weapon Focus of the Deadfire-Barb only works for weapons you are proficient with while Weapon Proficiency doesn't apply to universal weapons. So - currently the term "universal" means/does nothing. No idea how OBS wants to solve this.

 

@Gromnir: how often did you use Firebrand to kill a dragon in PoE? My (hyperbolic, yet educated) guess is 0 times.

 

But yes, priests' weapon are def. powerful enough, if not too powerful. The staff: we don't know because draining is not in yet. Lance: good enough for me after some testing. Especially the implementation that triggers on hit/crit effects in an AoE (like Swift Flurry, Soul Whip, Soul Annihilation...) make it prone to cheesy exploits. I didn't even test what happens if you do disengagement attacks with it...

 

Firebrand is the only one that I consider rather pointless at it's current state.

 

It's just annoying that it takes so long to summon all of them. I would prefer shorter summoning time and shorter duration rather than longer casting time and longer duration (see the Long Pain: short cast, shorter duration). It's just better and less micro/standing around when you use a whole party.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Lance: good enough for me after some testing. Especially the implementation that triggers on hit/crit effects in an AoE (like Swift Flurry, Soul Whip, Soul Annihilation...) make it prone to cheesy exploits.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that is removed given Carnage no longer works that way (same for the Rod modal too I suspect).

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir: how often did you use Firebrand to kill a dragon in PoE? My (hyperbolic, yet educated) guess is 0 times.

 

your guess would be way off, particular for pre wm poe. we most often played priests and paladins as mains... why play anything else from our pov? could add a hireling to the companions if we wished, but only priest and paladins received gameplay benefits from disposition gains. sure we ended up getting around to just 'bout anything, but priests and paladins were our staple. have stated many times how we thought folks were using priests all wrong in poe as ours were typical doing considerable weapon damage, after throwing down a few buffs.  firebrand did burn damage and the sky dragon, in spite o' breathing fire, were weakest to fire. not sure how many times our priests o' berath, wael and eothas switched over to firebrand to fight the sky dragon.  were an ideal weapon as we likely had two-handed style for those characters.  high base damage and burn meant it were an ideal option for overcoming skydragon dr. so, how often? Most o' the time pre wm... and often enough after depending the order we finished quests. were a highly effective weapon 'gainst the sky dragon... and trolls and constructs and primordials and... 

 

we played our paladin tanks with intellect as highest stat 'cause we believed they were wasted as simple meat shields.  no 3 dex nonsense for us neither.  so, as firebrand were a universal weapon, once we had debuffed the sky dragon we typical switched over to firebrand for a few flames o' devotion strikes. 

 

*chuckle*

 

keep in mind the adra dragon weren't immune to fire or petrification at the release o' poe.  she were having something in the order o' +30 burn dr?  maybe even 40?  petrification were admitted ridiculous broken, but even so, we killed the adra with fire multiple times. 

 

so, yeah, your hyperbole 'bout how often we benefited from firebrand burn quality were way off, but so too were your guestimate 'bout the number o' times we killed the sky dragon with a firebrand.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps alpine dragon were having better overall defenses and were just as weak to fire as the sky dragon.  the alpine dragon got a kiester full o' Gromnir's firebrand more than once.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Gromnir

[thelee]

 

Frankly, I was always surprised in PoE1 at just how good summoned weapons were. I mean, Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is a game changer all on its own. But this was probably because, as thelee said, we're used to them being garbage in the infinity engine games.

 

One other disadvantage to summoned weapons: you need to plan ahead and take a relevant weapon proficiency. Fine for Concelhaut's staff on level 1, but you really need to meta game to prepare for Citzal's Spirit Lance on spell level 5.

I honestly don't remember if they were always this way, as I don't think I used any on my initial playthrough at release, but summoned weapons in PoE1 are currently typed Universal (like soulbound weapons) so you get the benefit of any proficiency you have.

 

 

Summoned weapons in POE1 used to be of their specific type, but with 2.0 (and the introduction of soulbound weapons) universal type weapons were introduced.

[Boeroer]

 

@Gromnir: how often did you use Firebrand to kill a dragon in PoE? My (hyperbolic, yet educated) guess is 0 times.

 

your guess would be way off, particular for pre wm poe. we most often played priests and paladins as mains... why play anything else from our pov? could add a hireling to the companions if we wished, but only priest and paladins received gameplay benefits from disposition gains. sure we ended up getting around to just 'bout anything, but priests and paladins were our staple. have stated many times how we thought folks were using priests all wrong in poe as ours were typical doing considerable weapon damage, after throwing down a few buffs. firebrand did burn damage and the sky dragon, in spite o' breathing fire, were weakest to fire. not sure how many times our priests o' berath, wael and eothas switched over to firebrand to fight the sky dragon. were an ideal weapon as we likely had two-handed style for those characters. high base damage and burn meant it were an ideal option for overcoming skydragon dr. so, how often? Most o' the time pre wm... and often enough after depending the order we finished quests. were a highly effective weapon 'gainst the sky dragon... and trolls and constructs and primordials and...

 

we played our paladin tanks with intellect as highest stat 'cause we believed they were wasted as simple meat shields. no 3 dex nonsense for us neither. so, as firebrand were a universal weapon, once we had debuffed the sky dragon we typical switched over to firebrand for a few flames o' devotion strikes.

 

*chuckle*

 

keep in mind the adra dragon weren't immune to fire or petrification at the release o' poe. she were having something in the order o' +30 burn dr? maybe even 40? petrification were admitted ridiculous broken, but even so, we killed the adra with fire multiple times.

 

so, yeah, your hyperbole 'bout how often we benefited from firebrand burn quality were way off, but so too were your guestimate 'bout the number o' times we killed the sky dragon with a firebrand.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps alpine dragon were having better overall defenses and were just as weak to fire as the sky dragon. the alpine dragon got a kiester full o' Gromnir's firebrand more than once.

So... three times?

[Gromnir]

*insert eye roll here*

 

played a couple different priests o' eothas and wael (each) as well as one priest o' berath.  heck, we played an all preist party which turned out to be a bit op.  had a half dozen different paladins... at least three of whom used the firebrand on a regular basis.  typical would give firebrand to pallegina when she were in the party, and hiravias would summon his own when the alpine and sky dragons were debuffed.  barbarians were obvious beneficiaries o' firebrand, but moreso for the mobs accompanying the dragon. alpine and sky were weakest 'gainst burn, so why wouldn't we take advantage o' firebrand?

 

3 is still hyperbolic... but regardless, the point you thought you were making were not much o' a point. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[AndreaColombo]

So, what would the purpose of reducing the duration of summoned weapons be? To make them even less worthy of attention?

Edited December 12, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Gromnir]

So, what would the purpose of reducing the duration of summoned weapons be? To make them even less worthy of attention?

well, as h.alloy did concede regarding druid summoned weapons via shifting, the relative power o' such weapons should be taken into account when looking at durations.  even when the bug affecting spiritual weapons is fixed, they is still gonna be a bit op. personal, we would reduce the lash damage, but decreasing duration o' priestly spiritual weapons would be another option for addressing the current excess.

 

is current a non-decision as to whether a priest/_______ who is doing most damage through weapons is gonna cast priestly spiritual weapon spell.  if a choice is obvious, then is no choice at all... which should be repugnant to a game such as deadfire. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[AndreaColombo]

Afraid you linked to the wrong bug; I assume you were referring to the bug whereby the 60% lash from a Priest's summoned weapon applies to spells as well? Similarly, Wildstrike is applying to a Druid's spell. I don't believe either behavior was intended and they certainly need fixing.

 

60% is very powerful; I agree it could be reduced while keeping these weapons attractive—perhaps to 40%. I would honestly prefer that to a shorter duration, but your mileage may vary.

 

Weapons like Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, Kalakoth's Minor Blights, or Citzal's Spirit Lance are fine as is in terms of power and duration (with the caveat that the carnage effect from the Lance needs fixing to behave like a Barbarian's carnage). Firebrand I haven't really checked, so I can't comment. All should be fast cast though, or my other melee guys will have mopped the floor long before I get a chance to use them (which is what is happening right now in my beta play through.)

 

EDIT: Just checked Firebrand—it's just a regular great sword except it does burn/pierce damage. Pretty unimpressive. It could stand to have a burning lash.

Edited December 12, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Gromnir]

Afraid you linked to the wrong bug; 

 

correct link

 

"as an aside, another quirky priest bug is resulting from the lash damage of spiritual weapons, such as the flail o' eothas, being applied to spell damage.  a templar with a spiritual flail equipped will add corrode damage when utilizing the aforementioned divine mark."

 

was not in the title, but as far as we could tell via search, the bug had not previous been mentioned... though has been identified frequent subsequent and more prominent.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 12, 2017 by Gromnir

[AndreaColombo]

"as an aside, another quirky priest bug is resulting from the lash damage of spiritual weapons, such as the flail o' eothas, being applied to spell damage.  a templar with a spiritual flail equipped will add corrode damage when utilizing the aforementioned divine mark."

 

I stand corrected.

 

At least, we were talking about the same thing anyway!

[JerekKruger]

So, what would the purpose of reducing the duration of summoned weapons be? To make them even less worthy of attention?

 

Apparently they'd be too powerful otherwise.

[Boeroer]

That was why I said it's better to have fast cast and shorter duration instead of long cast and longer duration. It's a party rpg and no matter how powerful your summoned weapon is: if your friends killed all enemies before your weapon materializes it's a waste. Rather have a good weapon from start to 75% of the fight, when it's most needed - than to start at 75% and clean up the last near-death enemy with mighty force (you don't need anymore).

[AndreaColombo]

But fast cast doesn’t require a shorter duration and, with the possible exception of the Priest weapons with 60% lashes, none of the other summoned weapons would justify the shortening. They just aren’t good enough to require nerfing.

[Boeroer]

Yeah, I just meant if I would have to decide between long cast/long duration and short cast/short duration then I'd always opt for the later.

 

I would also gladly trade some lash power from the priests' weapons for a faster casting process.

[Dr <3]

I hope that the conjured weapon will turn out as similar as possible to poe1 ( more powerful than your "actual" weapon, long enough duration, fast cast. )

Sure, there will be more sinergy between conjured weapons and abilities of martial classes, but what is bad in this?

And if they scale with power level, if you multiclass you already autonerf a bit the weapon in itself, relative to a single class user.

Moreover this game will be full of unique items with a wider ( and powerful?) spectrum of special abilities in confront to poe1, so i can bet that we will be able to assemble much stronger comboes than " concelhaut staff + carnage" or "priest weapon + sneak attack + backstab + high might + high penetration".

 

In particualar: Claiming that firebrand ( or another random conjured weapon) *should* be just a bit better than the averege greatsword for "balance" or "because if it too powerful there will be no real choice" is a nonsense, you will not use the avarege greatsword anyway, you will use the best op greatsword aviable. In poe1 nobody uses Justice, everyone goes to Tidefall or hours of saint rumbald asap; firebrand should be a *possible* ( not best) alternative to them, not to a random fine or exceptional greatsword.

[Skaddix]

Hey Justice has it uses its useful to dump on your alternate melee character Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian as at least a backup until you get them something better.

[dragubaba]

My fighter used Justice throughout the entire game because I like the name and backstory. Even enchanted it to Legendary. Sometimes it's form over function.

Edited December 14, 2017 by dragubaba

[Boeroer]

Ok, but there's no point to both arguments in this discussion.

 

"as backup until something better" - that fits for every weapon in the game and says nothing about the overall effectiveness.

 

"because I liked the name and backstory" - that also can fit for every weapon in the game regardless of how bad it is. I once finished a playthrough with fully enchanted torches because I liked the looks...

[Skaddix]

Ok, but there's no point to both arguments in this discussion.

 

"as backup until something better" - that fits for every weapon in the game and says nothing about the overall effectiveness.

 

"because I liked the name and backstory" - that also can fit for every weapon in the game regardless of how bad it is. I once finished a playthrough with fully enchanted torches because I liked the looks...

 

I was being sarcastic it was crap. sorry if it didnt come across that way.