Frowning upon proficiency page as a monk

[Narcolypse204]

Unless you're doing some weird shield monk build it kinda sucks feeling like you miss out of choosing some weapons as a monk. I know they get a passive for fist damage and all but it would be cool to pick something.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Monk: yet another victim of the single class option drought...

[dam]

Erm, you do realize you *can* pick something ?

In fact, I did here.

 

Picked Saber and Maces (fck me, I regret maces).

 

 

Sabers remain as strong as they were in POE1.

And the stupid thing ? I actually deal (vastly more) damage with the saber than with my fists.

Fists are like 8-13 damage, sabers are something to the tune of 26-33.

 

Go figure

[morhilane]

Unless you're doing some weird shield monk build it kinda sucks feeling like you miss out of choosing some weapons as a monk. I know they get a passive for fist damage and all but it would be cool to pick something.

You should watch the latest Q&A, devs were pretty much "do people realize they can use weapons on Monks????".

 

I think it is clear that the Monk class is designed so you do pick and use weapons, not just your fists.

[Climhazzard]

As far as I can tell both force of anguish (prone doesn't work) and torment's reach (no aoe) are both broken at the moment.  Honestly even if they weren't broken I'm pretty sure the current monk is terrible at the moment compared to other options.  Torment's reach was nerfed terribly hard, even if it wasn't broken I'm not sure how good monk would be at the moment because they suffer badly from the penetration system.

 

Also, if we're forced to multi class to get a decent amount of talents to pick from then please provide a fists proficiency so I can multi class monk to devoted to get a decent amount of penetration with fists.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Boeroer]

Yes, they can use weapons, but there also should be a proficiency for unarmed or fists. I mean why not?

[Doppelschwert]

Also, if we're forced to multi class to get a decent amount of talents to pick from then please provide a fists proficiency so I can multi class monk to devoted to get a decent amount of penetration with fists.

 

I multiclassed a Devoted to a Monk. Turns out the penetration of his devoted weapon would be lower than the penetration of his fists if it wasn't for the devoted bonus, so fists seem to be perfectly in line with the normal weapons every non-devoted character needs to use:

 

Fine Sword: Penetration 9 = 5 + 1 + 3 (Base + Fine + Devoted)

Fists: Penetration 7 = 5 +2 (Base + Monk)

 

Base is the same, and the Monk bonus is already higher than the Fine bonus from the weapon.

 

Also, since Fists don't have a proficiency, they also don't get the penalty -10 acc from being devoted. Using fists and a devoted weapon for dual wielding (equip the weapon in the off-hand) can be great fun and makes for a good concept of someone who fights streetwise.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[Climhazzard]

 

Also, if we're forced to multi class to get a decent amount of talents to pick from then please provide a fists proficiency so I can multi class monk to devoted to get a decent amount of penetration with fists.

 

I multiclassed a Devoted to a Monk. Turns out the penetration of his devoted weapon would be lower than the penetration of his fists if it wasn't for the devoted bonus, so fists seem to be perfectly in line with the normal weapons every non-devoted character needs to use:

 

Fine Sword: Penetration 9 = 5 + 1 + 3 (Base + Fine + Devoted)

Fists: Penetration 7 = 5 +2 (Base + Monk)

 

Base is the same, and the Monk bonus is already higher than the Fine bonus from the weapon.

 

Also, since Fists don't have a proficiency, they also don't get the penalty -10 acc from being devoted. Using fists and a devoted weapon for dual wielding (equip the weapon in the off-hand) can be great fun and makes for a good concept of someone who fights streetwise.

 

 

 

7 is honestly low for a single damage type, fine maces are 8 I think?  I think 8 is honestly to low as well, but weapon users can benefit from going devoted (getting up to 11 with a modal that can reduce armor is good for most things I've encountered so far) while monks cannot so they're stuck at a penetration that's to low to be useful.  Remember that if your pen is to low you do 70% less damage, that's huge, the benefits from going devoted at the moment are huge.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Climhazzard

[cheesevillain]

Whether or not fists are good, the lack of a proficiency modal for them will make some players feel bad, as if it's "not a real weapon choice".

 

It also sucks that Devoted can't select fists, because a Devoted/Monk was was my first and favourite idea for the subclass.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

It also sucks that Devoted can't select fists, because a Devoted/Monk was was my first and favourite idea for the subclass.

I love this idea, and of course you should be able to be fist-devoted (no pun intended).

[Narcolypse204]

As far as I can tell both force of anguish (prone doesn't work) and torment's reach (no aoe) are both broken at the moment.  Honestly even if they weren't broken I'm pretty sure the current monk is terrible at the moment compared to other options.  Torment's reach was nerfed terribly hard, even if it wasn't broken I'm not sure how good monk would be at the moment because they suffer badly from the penetration system.

 

Also, if we're forced to multi class to get a decent amount of talents to pick from then please provide a fists proficiency so I can multi class monk to devoted to get a decent amount of penetration with fists.

This is sort of what I'm getting at, sure you can use weapons but with no unarmed prof it feels like the whole idea of using fists is lame because its left out.

[Climhazzard]

At the moment fists aren't as good as other one handed weapon options anyways.  They're a single damage type yet do less damage at the same speed.  One handed weapons are all to fast at the moment though so maybe when we get a build that fixes one handed weapons fists will hopefully stay at the current speed and become a good option comparatively.

 

My original estimate was a bit off though because lightning strikes is pretty good for every class.  I think my main problem with force of anguish and torment's reach was just whiffing (didn't know grazes were gone) but I haven't retested it yet and probably won't until the next beta version is released.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Gromnir]

Yes, they can use weapons, but there also should be a proficiency for unarmed or fists. I mean why not?

well, just one example:  it would be ridiculous op when stacked with barbarian weapon focus.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[morhilane]

 

Yes, they can use weapons, but there also should be a proficiency for unarmed or fists. I mean why not?

well, just one example:  it would be ridiculous op when stacked with barbarian weapon focus.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

A fist proficiency just mean it gets a modal like they other weapon proficiency.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Yes, they can use weapons, but there also should be a proficiency for unarmed or fists. I mean why not?

well, just one example:  it would be ridiculous op when stacked with barbarian weapon focus.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

A fist proficiency just mean it gets a modal like they other weapon proficiency.

 

barbarian weapon focus applies to any weapon with which you are proficient.  monks already got a built-in accuracy bonus with fists which increases with leveling. have monk fists Not count as proficient prevents excessive accuracy with fists when multiclassing with a barbarian and taking weapon focus. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Climhazzard]

Is that really excessive accuracy?  At level 6 a multi class monk with transcendant suffering only has 2 more accuracy than a fine weapon gives and there are exceptional weapons in game (you can find at least 2 as well as a soulbound weapon).

Edited November 18, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Gromnir]

Is that really excessive accuracy?  

at 6th level? is that a trick question? answer is affirmative. there is hardly a certainty such weapons will be available in deadfire when a party would natural hit such levels, but even if they is, considering you play a party and not a single character, at least two other members in your party will have weapons equivalent to your fists. party strength is thus considerable increased, and in deadfire you are playing a party.

 

now if you were to query whether the +6 is overkill when the monk hits level 14 and beyond, then am willing to concede we don't know. in poe, at high-level, monk fists became progressive inferior to constructed weapons.  additional benefits beyond the accuracy bonus were the reason for such inequity.  am not certain what the developers has done to correct the poe problem o' diminishing monk fist utility.  obvious solution is a few more monk specific gearing options, but am in the dark at the moment.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[KDubya]

I started with a Shattered Pillar/Devoted Boreal Dwarf.

 

1.) Devoted does not recognize a Monk's fist as a proficient weapon so you get a -10 to accuracy. So no using fists, not good but perhaps a weapon monk will do well, will see.   ​My mistake, the -10 is applied conditionally and does not apply to fists. So there is no downside to using fists as a devoted fighter multiclass with monk other than you don't get the benefits of the devoted favored weapon with fists.

 

2.) Boreal Dwarfs get Graze against wilders and primordials, Fighters get Confident Aim which gives grazes with a proficient weapon. Together you make your racial trait worthless. - ​The disciplined strikes also gives grazes when active while confident aim works all the time.

 

3.) Penetration looks to be the all important stat. My fists have 7 penetration which is usually too low and results in -70% damage, while my devoted Warhammer has 11 and does great. The devoted penetration also applies to Torment's Reach

 

4.) Shattered Pillar gaining wounds for doing damage meshes well with a shield and a more tanky approach.

 

I don't see the issue with having unarmed be a weapon proficiency choice. Its not free you still spend a talent choice on it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by KDubya

[Boeroer]

It seems like they simply forgot about it.

[dam]

 

 

 

Yes, they can use weapons, but there also should be a proficiency for unarmed or fists. I mean why not?

well, just one example:  it would be ridiculous op when stacked with barbarian weapon focus.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

A fist proficiency just mean it gets a modal like they other weapon proficiency.

 

barbarian weapon focus applies to any weapon with which you are proficient.  monks already got a built-in accuracy bonus with fists which increases with leveling. have monk fists Not count as proficient prevents excessive accuracy with fists when multiclassing with a barbarian and taking weapon focus. 

 

Accuracy is a vastly inferior stat to penetration, until :

- you reach a threshold that lets you crit consistently

AND

- your penetration + 50% from crit overcomes the enemy DR

 

 

What good is hitting, if you're gonna hit for 5 damage ?

 

Not much good, is what it's gonna be.

[dam]

2.) Boreal Dwarfs get Graze against wilders and primordials, Fighters get Confident Aim which gives grazes with a proficient weapon. Together you make your racial trait worthless. - ​The disciplined strikes also gives grazes when active while confident aim works all the time <--- with only a few select weapons

 

Corrected.

 

If we're gonna compare, let's compare evenly.

 

Confident Aim works only with your chosen weapons, which may or may not be vastly outclassed by this one OP weapon late game, for which you evidently didn't spec.

[the_dog_days]

It seems like they simply forgot about it.

I asked if there was an unarmed modal in their live stream beta announcement and the answer I got was that monks bare fists are already OP so they don't have any plans to add one. I can't blame them because in my last playthrough as a monk I was one shotting mobs on PotD by the end of the game. That said, if you want to punch dragons to death (as is my preference ) you have to play as a monk.

Edited November 22, 2017 by the_dog_days

[dam]

 

It seems like they simply forgot about it.

I asked if there was an unarmed modal in their live stream beta announcement and the answer I got was that monks bare fists are already OP so they don't have any plans to add one. I can't blame them because in my last playthrough as a monk I was one shotting mobs on PotD by the end of the game. That said, if you want to punch dragons to death (as is my preference ) you have to play as a monk.

 

Ok I'm confused, perhaps the character sheet is just fcked up.

 

 

Monk fists list 8-13 damage.

Sabers list 21-33 damage.

 

 

Long story short, I ended up playing my monk with sabers -.-

 

 

 

Gonna have to double check that I guess...

 

 

 

Edit: just to be on the same page here, when you talk about your last playthrough on POTD, you talkin' about DF or POE1 ?

Edited November 22, 2017 by dam

[Boeroer]

He means PoE1 where fists had completely different stats.

 

In Deadfire they are not especially powerful at the moment.

[the_dog_days]

I'm talking about POE1 monk being OP.