Miasma of Dull-Mindedness & Wild Orlan Wizard

[hansvedic]

So, I was thinking about how one might activate the Wild Orlan's Defiant Resolve, which led me to look for spells that target will. Lo and behold, the wizard spell "Miasma of Dull-Mindedness" targets will and is not a Foe AOE, allowing it to be used to activate Defiant Resolve. There's just one problem, of course; that spell comes with a fairly hefty toll to perception, intellect, and resolve. 

 

Thus, I decided to see if there was a way to make my will defenses high enough to ensure that the spell misses me. If my theorycrafting is correct, there is. Please see my calculations below:

 

Base Wizard Accuracy -- -20 (negative to account for effect on defenses)

Base Will Defense -- 20

Base Resolve (20) -- 20

Base Intellect (18) -- 16

Llengrath's Safeguard -- 20

Bull's Will -- 10

Ring of Protection -- 9

Cloak of Protection -- 10

Level Defense Bonus (cancelled out by Level Accuracy Bonus)

 

Altogether, this comes out to 85 defense, allowing a maximum of 15 on any will attack roll from the player character to itself. Given that any roll whose total comes to 15 or less results in a miss, with these items, and the Llengrath's Safeguard spell, a solo Wild Orlan can activate Defiant Resolve at will. Of course, this is a whole lot easier to manage with a party, especially if there is a priest.

 

With this in mind, one could create, I suspect, a defensively oriented Wild Orlan wizard that can, especially with high defense gained through items, nuke the ground it is standing on with spells without a worry of being hit, especially with the addition of other items, such as Little Savior with its Herald enchantment.

 

So, what are your thoughts regarding this?

 

 

[mosspit]

It is good to have a discussion on Defiant Resolve. I remembered seeing it a while back. In my opinion, that is a lot of prep work to activate Defiant Resolve.

 

The common discussion point is during Dragon fights. Their fear/terrify aura attacks Will and procs Defiant Resolve just by staying in the vicinity. It is an aura so it will pulse every few (3?) secs. Needs verification, but if Im not wrong Protection against Fear will nullify or prevent the fear/terrifiy effects while still enabling the Defiant Resolve proc.

[Boeroer]

A few points:

- all abilities, including wizard spells, get +1 ACC per level (on top of their innate ACC bonus of +10 most of he time and the bonus your char's ACC base gets).
It's hard to raise the will defense that high so that grazes will not happen.

- Prayer against Fear will make you immune against Fear bit still Defiant Resolve will get triggered.

Can you cast the priest lvl one spells Halt (with a stag helmet) or Divine Terror (with a prayer first) directly on an ally? That would be perfect.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Boeroer

[hansvedic]

Thanks for the suggestions, Boeroer. According to the wiki, Divine Terror is a Foe AOE, so that's probably out. As for Halt, I'll give it a try.

 

It is quite a bit of prep work, to be sure, mosspit. That being said, the items do seem to fit with the idea of a defensively-oriented wizard.

 

I suppose that, in a party, a priest could cast Devotions or Crowns for the Faithful to make up for the added accuracy per level to abilities benefit, or Holy Power at lower levels. Perhaps a scroll of Protection, or a priest casting the similar spell could work as well? EDIT: Just realized that scroll of protection probably doesn't stack with Llengrath's Safeguard.

 

EDIT: Just realized a potential problem - does Cloak of Protection stack with Ring of Protection? If not, might use Cape of the Cheat instead. Cape of the Cheat is probably better, anyways, given its Deceptive enchantment.

Edited October 11, 2017 by hansvedic

[mosspit]

How about this.

 

Create a Wild Orlan Cipher with Mind Wave (lvl 1 spell). Character needs to be at least lvl 2. Cast Mind Wave on yourself or another Wild Orlan. Defiant Resolve activated. Can be done out of combat too.

 

Focus will be refunded since not in combat. So technically just costs some health (Not endurance).

 

 

Not to say you cant still go via the MoDM method. If you do just note that Cloak of Protection and Ring of Protection can't stack.

Edited October 11, 2017 by mosspit

[hansvedic]

Interesting idea, Mosspit.

 

One of the reasons I was thinking about a wizard, in particular, has to do with their deflection-raising spells and Llengrath's Safeguard. Still, a cipher is worth investigating further. Thanks for the info.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that the wiki says that ciphers cannot target themselves. Is this true?

 

EDIT2: If it is possible for ciphers to target their allies with Mind Wave, then having a cipher partner could be very beneficial. Also, later on in the game, Defensive Mindweb + buffed-up Wild Orlan wizard should be an excellent combo. Thanks again, Mosspit.

Edited October 11, 2017 by hansvedic

[mosspit]

It works I tested it. You can also cast Mind Wave on your fellow wizard. And the wave effect will still hit foes not your own party.

[Moneo]

Wow, a complicated tactics of self-buffing via self-debuffing, yeah. But the best thing about Defiant Resolve is that it triggers even if an attack vs Will misses, even if your character is immune to that effect, as Boeroer mentioned. In practice, the nastiest high-level foes in the late game use frightening/terrifying auras, so in toughest battles Defiant Resolve will be constantly up. It's a great thing, it's probably the best racial ability, and I always play the game with a Wild Orlan tankadin in my party, but I don't bother myself in triggering it manually. When the things turn badly, it triggers automatically.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

I also tested it and I think Spell Mastery "Halt" + Stag Helmet is the perfect combo. Only one spell and immunity through an item.

If you can cast Eyestrike on an ally you could also use the Crossed Patch to prevent blinding.  

[Moneo]

Also, there is Hermit's Hat which grants immunity to Confusion. But again, its a weird tactics IMO.

[Boeroer]

I don't know if there is any spell that can cause Confusion on an ally. All mind control spells are foe only. But some others (like Mind Wave) you can cast directly on an ally. Maybe this is also the case here. Would have to test if the wizard's spells work that way...

[Braven]

I got it. First you knock the orlan wizard prone while the wizard is wearing a +50 to defenses while prone/stunned shield and another piece of equipment with that enchantment (they stack for +100 to all defenses). You can then use a will attack on them (which will miss), triggering defiant resolve.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Braven

[Dr <3]

Interesting, but maybe this is a bit overcommitment for only +10 to all def... And anyway, in the fights where this can matter (dragons/boss) there will always be someone with fear aura, so it will be up all the time automatically.

 

I mean: nice theorycrafting, but difficult to have a practical use

[hansvedic]

It may be an overcommitment for only +10 to all defenses... unless of course that +10 puts you into the unhittable range.

 

Still, you're probably right, Dr <3, and I appreciate that you like the theorycrafting, even if it serves no practical useage.

 

Also, Braven, I found your post funny. Thanks for the laugh!

[Moneo]

It can be not so obvious, but in PoE it's more profitable to boost high defenses than to improve weak ones. That's because of saving throw mechanics which is based on difference between Acc and Def values.

 

For example, if an enemy has a 20% chance to hit you, and you boost your defense by 10, then the enemy will have a 10% chance, which means 50% improvement. But if he has a 80% chance to hit you, then the same boost will lead to 70% hit chance, which is only 12.5% improvement.

 

So the best way to exploit Defiant Resolve is to roll a tankadin, who has overall the highest defenses in the party (except for Reflex, maybe) - yes, Defensive Mindweb, that's you who I'm looking at. At least, it's reasonable to take Bull's Will talent to every Wild Orlan no matter what class.

 

And yeah, the aforementioned tactics is definitely funny. "I've beaten the game several times, I'm bored and I has nothing to do, so why not to try a new thing..."

Edited October 11, 2017 by Moneo

[Braven]

I wonder if the soul bound sword Steadfast triggers defiant resolve.  In that case, you could have a buddy give you a whack with it.  

 

Interesting idea, Mosspit.

 

One of the reasons I was thinking about a wizard, in particular, has to do with their deflection-raising spells and Llengrath's Safeguard. Still, a cipher is worth investigating further. Thanks for the info.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that the wiki says that ciphers cannot target themselves. Is this true?

 

EDIT2: If it is possible for ciphers to target their allies with Mind Wave, then having a cipher partner could be very beneficial. Also, later on in the game, Defensive Mindweb + buffed-up Wild Orlan wizard should be an excellent combo. Thanks again, Mosspit.

 

Ciphers can target themselves with the level 2 power, vampiric shield.  This was probably a developer oversight, but lets take advantage of it.

 

This, too, can be cast outside of combat and targeting yourself should trigger defiant resolve.  Granted, I think defiant resolve only lasts 10 seconds and is not affected by Intelligence.  Using vampiric shield on yourself is a good idea anyways because it raises your deflection by +25 and has a long duration  (net 15 deflection if you have at least 11 resolve, since it drains 10 away).  Out of combat, the focus immediately replenishes and it doesn't do damage.  

 

This works best if you start with only 3 resolve; a tempting thing to do anyways with cipher since they benefit a lot from more offensive stats.  This is because you can't go below 1 resolve.  With 3 resolve, you only lose 2 for a +23 net deflection boost.  If you are using drugs or wearing the hat that lowers resolve by 2, you get the full +25 deflection with no downside at all and another +10 to all defenses from defiant resolve.  You can then continue casting it on yourself periodically during the battle.  It is probably worth more casting it on yourself for the +10 to all defenses than just lowering an enemy's resolve; just be sure not to buff your will defense so high that you miss yourself.  Having only 1 resolve helps this as it keeps your will defense relatively low.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Braven

[hansvedic]

Hrmm... does anyone know what the highest accuracy an enemy in the game has is?

 

EDIT: I'm asking to check how practical this theorycrafting may be. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by hansvedic

[Lampros]

Interesting, but maybe this is a bit overcommitment for only +10 to all def... And anyway, in the fights where this can matter (dragons/boss) there will always be someone with fear aura, so it will be up all the time automatically.

 

I mean: nice theorycrafting, but difficult to have a practical use

 

I totally agree. Why not just duplicate Little Savior and give +10 to everyone - which is what I am doing on my current PotD run?

[Braven]

 

Interesting, but maybe this is a bit overcommitment for only +10 to all def... And anyway, in the fights where this can matter (dragons/boss) there will always be someone with fear aura, so it will be up all the time automatically.

 

I mean: nice theorycrafting, but difficult to have a practical use

I totally agree. Why not just duplicate Little Savior and give +10 to everyone - which is what I am doing on my current PotD run?

Well, little Savior requires going to the bottom of the endless paths and defeating a terrifying beast. Defiant resolve is available at level 1. Also, they both stack so why not both?

[Lampros]

 

 

Interesting, but maybe this is a bit overcommitment for only +10 to all def... And anyway, in the fights where this can matter (dragons/boss) there will always be someone with fear aura, so it will be up all the time automatically.

 

I mean: nice theorycrafting, but difficult to have a practical use

I totally agree. Why not just duplicate Little Savior and give +10 to everyone - which is what I am doing on my current PotD run?

Well, little Savior requires going to the bottom of the endless paths and defeating a terrifying beast. Defiant resolve is available at level 1. Also, they both stack so why not both?

 

 

I guess so much micro-management for an incremental benefit on just one character perplexes me. But then we are all wired differently!

[Dr <3]

I wonder if the soul bound sword Steadfast triggers defiant resolve. In that case, you could have a buddy give you a whack with it.

 

Interesting idea, Mosspit.

 

One of the reasons I was thinking about a wizard, in particular, has to do with their deflection-raising spells and Llengrath's Safeguard. Still, a cipher is worth investigating further. Thanks for the info.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that the wiki says that ciphers cannot target themselves. Is this true?

 

EDIT2: If it is possible for ciphers to target their allies with Mind Wave, then having a cipher partner could be very beneficial. Also, later on in the game, Defensive Mindweb + buffed-up Wild Orlan wizard should be an excellent combo. Thanks again, Mosspit.

Ciphers can target themselves with the level 2 power, vampiric shield. This was probably a developer oversight, but lets take advantage of it.

 

This, too, can be cast outside of combat and targeting yourself should trigger defiant resolve. Granted, I think defiant resolve only lasts 10 seconds and is not affected by Intelligence. Using vampiric shield on yourself is a good idea anyways because it raises your deflection by +25 and has a long duration (net 15 deflection if you have at least 11 resolve, since it drains 10 away). Out of combat, the focus immediately replenishes and it doesn't do damage.

 

This works best if you start with only 3 resolve; a tempting thing to do anyways with cipher since they benefit a lot from more offensive stats. This is because you can't go below 1 resolve. With 3 resolve, you only lose 2 for a +23 net deflection boost. If you are using drugs or wearing the hat that lowers resolve by 2, you get the full +25 deflection with no downside at all and another +10 to all defenses from defiant resolve. You can then continue casting it on yourself periodically during the battle. It is probably worth more casting it on yourself for the +10 to all defenses than just lowering an enemy's resolve; just be sure not to buff your will defense so high that you miss yourself. Having only 1 resolve helps this as it keeps your will defense relatively low.

Yeah, autovampiric shield is actually a good plan i think. Or the best proposed up to now.

Just care to skip brutal psychic backlash talent! Normal backlash is not a problem, since stun autoresolves out of combat.

[mosspit]

Well the effect of lowering the Res of the team mate seems counter intuitive, at least in OP's case as he is trying to buff up the Wizard's saves.

 

Psychovampiric Shield is one of the effects I though of too but decided not to voice it out due to the above-mentioned reasons. Mind Wave on the other hand just reduces health. And during actual combat, it is fast cast plus the resultant propagated wave still has the CC property which will affect enemies. Pyschovampiric Shield will stand to benefit more if it was cast on an enemy, in my opinion anyways.

Edited October 12, 2017 by mosspit

[Braven]

Well the effect of lowering the Res of the team mate seems counter intuitive, at least in OP's case as he is trying to buff up the Wizard's saves.

 

Psychovampiric Shield is one of the effects I though of too but decided not to voice it out due to the above-mentioned reasons. Mind Wave on the other hand just reduces health. And during actual combat, it is fast cast plus the resultant propagated wave still has the CC property which will affect enemies. Pyschovampiric Shield will stand to benefit more if it was cast on an enemy, in my opinion anyways.

I was just responding to OPs followup question about ciphers (that some cipher spells can target themselves despite what the wiki says because they are considered attacks instead of buffs). Also, OP said wizard was considered because of deflection boosting spells, so I thought it worth mentioning that ciphers have a great deflection boosting spell too that can also trigger defiant resolve.

 

As for the trade off, gaining +25 deflection (+23 after attribute drain) and than +10 to all defenses after seems like a good trade to me. You lose the -10 deflection and -20 will on an enemy. Though, that is not an option if prebuffing outside of battle. Generally I use mental binding on enemies I plan to attack for the massive deflection debuffs it applies (-50 with stuck and paralyzed) so the extra -10 doesn’t really matter. I suppose casting it on a different enemy could help your party more; I was thinking more from a solo perspective. Or casting it on an enemy before mental binding or a charm, etc for the will debuff. It might not always be the best, but I think it is a valid strategy. I kind of want to try it now myself in-game.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

 

Well the effect of lowering the Res of the team mate seems counter intuitive, at least in OP's case as he is trying to buff up the Wizard's saves.

 

Psychovampiric Shield is one of the effects I though of too but decided not to voice it out due to the above-mentioned reasons. Mind Wave on the other hand just reduces health. And during actual combat, it is fast cast plus the resultant propagated wave still has the CC property which will affect enemies. Pyschovampiric Shield will stand to benefit more if it was cast on an enemy, in my opinion anyways.

I was just responding to OPs followup question about ciphers (that some cipher spells can target themselves despite what the wiki says because they are considered attacks instead of buffs). Also, OP said wizard was considered because of deflection boosting spells, so I thought it worth mentioning that ciphers have a great deflection boosting spell too that can also trigger defiant resolve.

 

As for the trade off, gaining +25 deflection (+15-25 after attribute drain) and than +10 to all defenses after seems like a good trade to me. Like I said, I think it is more beneficial than casting it on an enemy because you don’t need to lower thier accuracy further. Generally I use mental binding on enemies I plan to attack for the massive deflection debuffs it applies (-50 between stuck on paralyzed). You have no need for further accuracy after casting that. I suppose casting it on a different enemy could help your party more; I was thinking more from a solo perspective.

 

Even if the OP is a wizard, this works. Just have a cipher party member cast it on them. The cipher gets +25 deflection while with mindwave they get nothing. Losing a measally 2 deflection seems better than taking damage, in my opinion. The fast cast is nice though and has a cheaper focus cost.

 

Sure but when I reference Mind Wave I wasn't referring to solo. But to OP's situation. Just to be clear, the point here is to buff the wizard who imo should not be Res dumped. Otherwise as I said, it will counter intuitive to raise the saves of a character who is Res dumped. In the case the trade off is 10 Res, which is 20 less Will and 10 less deflection.

 

And that is out of combat. What about during combat? Would it still make sense to Psychovampiric Shield the orlan wizard instead of an enemy when you can actually lower their defences? Or use Mind Wave on a Wizard Orlan which can proc CC effects, proc Defiant Resolve at the cost of some Endurance?

Edited October 12, 2017 by mosspit

[Braven]

I don’t value the will save at all in this situation. If they needed will then they wouldn’t need to cast a spell on themselves to trigger defiant resolve; the enemy would do it for them. This strategy is specifically for encounters where the enemy has no will attacks (and thus will defense is not relevent)

 

I agree this works best with low resolve. Wizards typically have low resolve anyway since Might, perception, and intelligence is important for a lot of spells and Con too due to low endurance pool and fortitude being the most important defense. It is just hard to find the stats for the relatively small amount of deflection resolve provides (particularly when wizards can get +75 deflection on demand from a talent when they really need it bad)

Edited October 12, 2017 by Braven