Flail's Fire Lash

[Braven]

I just noticed yesterday that the unforgiven flail seem to have a +10% additional fire lash.  I wonder if it works like enchantment elemental lashes?  Given how powerful we know those can be given that it applies to the full damage instead of just base damage and can be boosted with Scion of Flame, does this makes this flail the best option with the right build?  One thing that gives it an advantage over sabers is that unforgiven is a speed enchanted weapon (sabers don't have any).

 

I guess maybe 10% just isn't significant enough, but it seems like a -true- MonsterLash needs it on principal.  Monk might already get scion of flame and, since full-attacks only use the primary weapon's recovery, torments reach will benefit from this even if you only have it in one hand and the other non-speed fire-lashed flail (star caller) in the other hand and they will both effectively have the speed enchantment when spamming Torrents Reach; now with extra fire.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Not only Unforgiven, but also Starcaller and Justice have this - and every torch, too.

 

The problem with lashes is that they don't have MIN damage - which means that no damage will come through DR if the lash is too weak. The difference between 10% and 25% is immense because of DR. They also don't profit from DR bypass like Vulnerable Attack. In most cases you will not see the 10% lash make it through. You either need a weapon with damage per hit or a lot of damage bonuses (or ideally both) in order to witness such a small lash to overcome DR and be mentioned in the combat log. Flails are fast but low base damage weapons which clearly doesn't help either.

 

With Justice on a rogue you can see some additional crush damage make it through here and there - but it's not enough to make it a great alternative to Tidefall for example.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Interesting. I can see how it will be useless. I am guessing lashes of the same type are not added up before DR, but each checked seperately

 

Maybe I over-estimate lash greatness. Tough enemies usually have high DR making lashes worthless when you need the damage most.

 

Maybe it could still work for rogues; particularly ones with low perception to make use of the graze to hit and low dexterity or heavy armor to make dual-weilding desirable when comparied with tidefall (tankier rogue). Or maybe a shield using one. With backstab and deathblows and sneak attack, even 10% should have no problem blowing through DR. What rogues need most is speed. Even if just in one hand for all their many full attack powers.

 

It used to be that sabers were clearly the best because of the higher base damage, but now it is a more open field.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Braven

[Gnomic]

It's really too bad the 10% fire lash doesn't merge with a 25% fire lash for a total of 35%.

 

Justice would still be bad unless its 10% lash were changed to one of the four lash-addable types.

[Braven]

I wish at least the DR reduction matched the lash. For example, 10% lash would get 1/10th the DR like how 25% lashes get 1/4 DR. That would also make it more desirable and easier to judge the relative value of a lash. Part of the reason 50% lashes are so good is because they are still only penalized 1/4th DR.

[Boeroer]

@Braven: Yes, lashes will not be combined and form a bigger lash but instead get calculated seperately. This is also the case with FoD + Intense Flames and Wildstrike + Greater Wildstrike (I think?). Lashes that add up before getting applied are Turning Wheel and Blood Testament - which makes the max 50% Turning Wheel bonus so powerful - same with Torment's Reach's crushing lash of 50%.

 

Lashes are an awesome addition to damage because as you said they are a multiplicative bonus. And right: the higher the lash the more powerful in an exponential way because of DR (unless it's a raw lash).

 

Boosting the normal 25% lash to 30% with Scion of Flame (only 5%) is already a lot better than having an additional 10% lash.

 

It would be neat if DR bypass would be applied before DR is divided by 4 and if there was MIN damage. That would make fast, light weapons more useful. Because atm nobody likes them too much because of DR issues. It's always hammers and sabres and two handers.

 

@Gnomic: In terms of usefulness Justice's crushing lashes (10% + 25%) are as good as elemental lashes. You just can't improve them with Scion of Flame or one of the other elemental boosters. Besides that why should it be better if there's an elemental lash on it instead of a crushing one?

[Moneo]

I have Unforgiven as an emergency weapon on my ranged cipher. When he is surrounded by enemies and oppressed, he can switch from a warbow to the Unforgiven+shield combo and continue hitting and getting the focus. WF: Adventurer also helps. For the cipher, every bit of damage is valuable, 'cause with this class, you either have enough focus to cast the desired power, or need to make yet another hit with your weapon.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

But it doesn't help the cipher if the small lash doesn't get through.

 

Maybe a cipher with 15 MIG, Savage Attack, Apprenice Sneak, Soul Whip and Biting Whip, exceptional flail (like Unforgiven is) as well as Scion of Flame can manage to bring the small lash through enemies' DR. Let's see:

 

Flail's average base damage is 11.

 

11 * (1+0.15+0.2+0.15+0.2+0.2+0.3) = 24.2 average damage on hit

 

24.2 * 0.12 = 2.9 burn damage --> enemies burn DR has to be 9 or lower so that damage comes through (over DR 9 the lash damage is <0.5)

24.2 * 0.30 = 7.26 burn damage --> enemies burn DR has to be 27 (!) or lower so that damage comes through

 

And this is with a pretty good damge bonus setup. Of course it gets better with crits (will add 5.5 damage, 9.9 with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver), but still...

 

You can see what a huge difference those "few" percentages make because of DR, no DR bypass for lashes and no MIN damage going through - paired with a light hitting weapon. It's better with Justice but still not very good.

 

Originally Lightning Strikes of the monk only added +15% shocking lash. They changed it to 25% because it seldomly made it through DR and thus was useless.

 

P.S.: as a sidenote: if you want to have a constant stream of focus gain for your cipher then try a cipher + priest with Spark the Souls + chanter with Mith Fyr. I don't know why but Sparks generate focus - even more so with an additional lash (if it gets through - amybe also bring a wizard with Expose Vuln.) - and the lash also works for your weapon of course. Thanks MaxQuest for the hint!

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

Well, your calculations are precise, but as I said, that's not for "constant stream of focus", just for emergency cases on occasion. The warbow is the weapon which gives my cipher reliable focus generations, Borresaine, then Rain. But there are some battles when I find my team surronded by enemies, like the one at the White Forge. Enemy AI for some reason likes to concentrate fire at my cipher. In that cases, being surrounded, he switches to 1h+shield, this helps him not to fall down. And what weapon to give him? Of course, a hatchet is a choise defensive-wise, but offensive-wise the best choice here is a flail, which shares WF: Adventurer with the warbows. And the best choice for the flail here is Unforgiven.

 

Of course I don't state that Unforgiven is the strongest 1h weapon, although it's quite strong (any weapon with the "speed" enchant isn't weak). I just describe a case, where it could be useful.

 

And yes, I use my cipher buffed with Aefyllath chant (actually, Sure-Handed+Aefyllath, as I described in another thread), but I have just never used Sparks, thanks for the advise!

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

Sure, I agree. It's a nice backup setup for your character.

 

I just wanted to point out (with regard to the topic) that the small burning lash is not very good on a flail even for ciphers who have good damage bonuses and might speculate on some additional focus. But I can see that it works to bring the lash through DR if you manage to reliably do crits and are the MC. Then it will do somtehing for your focus - also paired with speed. Maybe one should check if dual flail (Starcaller + Unforgiven) is a good option for a critty cipher - both have that mini-lash. Or if dual torches are an option.

 

Heck - I never even thought about using Justice for a cipher, but it makes some sense now... glad we talked about this.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

Well, for the ciphers, having plus-minus just 1 point of the focus can be quite a difference, depending on the fact, is this amount of focus sufficient for a required cast or not. Though a 10% fire lash on a flail adds a little, as you figured, even then for the cipher, every little bit helps. That's what I wanted to say,  the cipher is the class which benefits the most from such a 10% lash, it's not in the terms of bare damage numbers, but tactical-wise. For other classes benefits are marginal because of low damage numbers, that's true.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

The thing is that a cipher would probably be better off with another one handed weapon when it comes to focus generation (for example Shatterstar or Bittercut) although those flails have that additional lash. Not in your case of course because it's your backup set and you're set on the Weapon Focus.

 

And with probably I mean surely.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Agreed with Moneo, these flails (Unforgiven and Starfallen) have potential to be a decent choice for a melee cipher who is going to use one-handed weapons.

Flails being fast weapons, have x1.5 faster attack and recovery durations compared to warhammers and sabres.

Due to inter-action delay, and when at 18DEX and zero recovery this advantage is reduced x1.5 -> x1.4, which is still nice.

 

Now let's compare base damage:

- war-hammers: 11-16 

- flails: 9-13

 

And dps vs 0 DR:

- war-hammers: (11+16)/2 * 30/28.2 = 13.5 * 1.06 = 14.31

- flails: (9-13)/2 * 30/20.1 = 11 * 1.49 = 16.39 (or 14.5% higher)

 

Now we will have to factor in:

- extra lash (flail), annihilation (warhammers, sabres) and +0.2 damage coef (sabres, spirit of decay)

- target DR and DR bypass means

And maybe I will do some day the math...

 

P.S. But anyway, so far my vote goes for Blade of the Endless Paths for focus generation in the late game / and Firebrand in the early game.

Edited October 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Against very soft targets Unforgiven is of course way ahead.

 

When only doing crits Bittercut and Shatterstar will be behind until you attack targets with around maybe 15 to 17 DR I would guess - and Shatterstar would be in front of Bittercut of course (because 0.5 is more then 0.4).

 

With a more realistic hit:crit ratio of 50:50 I would supect that this shifts down to around 10 to 12 DR and that Shatterstar obviously loses ground compared to Bittercut. Can't say what Vulnerable Attack will do for Unforgiven at that point, but nothing good for the lashing part...

 

But the main reason why I mentioned Bittercut and Shatterstar and why I think they are better for a cipher is dual damage. I can't say for sure how this factors in but it's a pretty big advantage in my experience. Encounters where you can't get good focus are really annoying. There's also Strike Hard which has speed by the way.

 

Firebrand (with some dmg mods, critting a paralyzed enemy) is pretty much the best focus tool you can get in the early to mid game, I agree.

[Braven]

Because atm nobody likes them [small weapons] too much because of DR issues. It's always hammers and sabres and two handers.

Are fast (small one handed) really worse than normal (large one handed) weapons? Sure the average base damage is 2.5 lower, but the attack speed is almost 50% faster. DR will play more of a role, but I don't think it is as bad as often assumed. The extra speed clearly helps any "effect-on-hit" like stunning since you will have more hits to apply it and it lasts just as long, duration wise, as a slower weapon's stun. Interrupts are also better because of this. Mosquito interrupts better than shatter-star even though it has a lower interrupt rating because of the speed difference. For damage, it depends mostly on DR and the number of additive damage multipliers you have. Lower DR helps fast speed weapons and Higher DR favors normal speed weapons. Larger damage multipliers help small weapons more than large one-handers.

 

First some observations about faster and slower one-handed weapons:

 

1) Min damage helps fast weapons more than normal weapons because fast weapons hit MIN damage more often. Min damage increases the damage you were supposed to deal based strictly on a DR formula, so it is actually a good thing. The reason we think of MIN damage as bad is because fast weapons are more likely to use it and they are always low numbers. But this is really a DPS boost for fast weapons.

 

2) Two of the fast weapons have a slightly faster animation speed than others (rapier and stiletto). It is very minor, but it can still amount to 1-2 DEX worth of additional speed with zero attack recovery. For example, zero recovery with a rapier and 20 DEX is the exact same speed as a dagger at 22 DEX

 

3) Normal speed weapons get a bit better relatively the closer you get to zero recovery because the ~4 frame delay is a smaller percent of the total attack cycle.

 

4) Limited use abilities benefit normal weapons because speed is less of a factor for measuring the effectiveness of those abilities. If that is a big part of you strategy (example: alpha strikes with FoD or gun-switching), bigger weapons are going to be better. We will assume auto-attacking for comparison.

 

5) The dagger with wounding is not being considered since it works very differently and there are not any large one-handers with wounding to compare against. Generally, it is a great weapon and doesn't suffer so badly against high DR as other fast weapons.

 

6) Damage multipliers benefit small weapons more for the same reason that lower DR helps small weapons. More total damage means that DR has less of an impact.

 

For this calculation I am assuming a Rapier vs Warhammer at zero recovery with 10 dexterity. This is pretty fair because the speed enchanted ones both effectively decrease DR and increase accuracy and in my mind have roughly equally useful enchantments, at least for a solo character. I will look at different additive bonuses and DR levels to see where the DR breakpoint is in which one does more damage over time than the other.

 

Speed:

Rapier: 23.1 frames (guessing this rounds to 23 frames)

Warhammer: 34 frames

Rapier is: 47.8% faster (full attack cycle)

 

Formula Used: (base damage * multiplier * speed) - (DR * speed) = Damage

Example: Rapier @ 100% additive damage multiplier: (11 * 2 * 1.478) - (DR * 1.478) = Damage

 

I am not sure if this math is correct, but it came up with the following DR break points.

 

0% damage multiplier: 5 DR and lower favor small weapons

50% damage multiplier: 8 DR and lower favor small weapons

100% damage multiplier: 11 DR and lower favor small weapons

150% damage multiplier: 14 DR and lower favor small weapons

200% damage multiplier: 17 DR and lower favor small weapons

 

If this math is correct, higher damage multiplier characters like rogues are better with small weapons. If you really ramp up your damage multipliers, only against dragon-level DR is a large weapon superior... and then you are best off with wounding enchant. If DR is super high, such that both large and small weapons hit MIN damage, small weapons will again have better DPS (20% higher)... but who is fighting dragons in a fair fight.

 

The same breakpoints apply for lashes (only you can't factor in any MIN damage so they are worse at the upper end of DR and are not helped by DR-Bypass). Single attack lashes that are limited use, like Paladin's Flames of Devotion, would still favor big weapons of course since a DPS equation wouldn't apply to them because of their limited uses.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Braven]

One other note: The damage drops off very quickly after those break points (exponential curve drop-off as the DR increases) which is why it is really noticeable with small weapons when attacking enemies with high DR early in the game before better accuracy, crit multipliers, and quality enchantments.

 

Interestingly, rogues benefit the most from small weapons yet people like to use sabers or other big weapons thinking that the higher base damage is better for high damage classes. Drawn in spring is so much better now because small weapons out-dps large ones for high multiplier characters in all situations and it has a 25% raw damage lash on top. Only tidefall with a DAOM potion can beat it. Without the potion and other extreme measures to reduce recovery time (like no armor) and Tidefall is worse.

 

Regardless, In the early/mid game before you collect a bunch of damage multipliers (or if you have low might and few talents or equipment to help damage), large one-handers are going to be better overall. This can be mitigated a lot with vulnerable attack, making small weapons more viable.

 

Normal weapons are never that far behind fast weapons before the breakpoint. Across all damage multipliers, in the examples above, at zero DR the rapier was only 20% higher DPS than the Warhammer. Maybe it is worth it to usually have slightly worse damage in order to not have to worry about the massive drop when fighting high DR enemies.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Moneo]

@ Braven

 

Exactly, the drop-off because of DR growth isn't exponential, it's just linear. That's why PoE DR mechanics (according to what exact DR your foes have in practice, not in theorycrafting) favors slow and heavy-hitting twohanders, at least with a barb. But base damage boni have additive returns, and boosting attack speed has multiplicative returns. That's a bit sophisticated, 'cause pumping up Dex has diminishing returns with attack speed, but raising up the exact attack speed leads to accordingly exact linear growth of DPS.

 

Thus, certain classes like rogue and cat-formed druid, which can collect quite a number of boni to their damage and therefore mitigate high DR, can favor fast-hitting weapons in order to boost their DPS. Also, for such classes, the more hits means the more crits and further boost to DPS.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

That's right. When auto-attacking then the fast weapons are better - as long you don't face quite high DR or if you have means to lower DR or to bypass DR (or both). Or they have wounding which makes Drawn in Spring the weapon with the highest potential dps gainst nealry every enemy that is not immune to slash damage.

 

But why don't rogues, barbs, fighters and so on use those weapons more often?

 

I guess beseides the DR issue most people like the heavy one handers more because they are better with all abilites that have limited uses (most of them Full Attacks which makes dual wielding heavy one handers even better than using a two hander in most cases).

 

Rogue's strikes and blows (except Sap), Fighter's Knockdown and Charge and Sunderung Blow, Paladin's FoD, Monk's Stunning Blows, Barbarians Barbaric Blow, HoF and Vengeful Defeat, Ranger's Wounding "Shot" and so on are all better with heavy one handers or a two hander than with flails, daggers, rapiers and the like. And since most melee classes do have those abilites it's logical why the heavy one handers are used more often.

Even Drawn in Spring is inferior when used with Heart of Fury for example. Bittercut is the best option for HoF, FoD and the like (only speaking about damage).

 

All classes or builds like ciphers, priests, chanters and so on who don't use those abilites may be better off with the fast, light weapons in the long run (after they get some dmg bonuses and DR bypass)...

But only if you ignore the fact that there are no light weapons with two damage types (besides stilettos - not in one weapon, but there are Lagufaeth stilettos that do slash damage while the others do pierce - you still have to switch) - which again is a big drawback in my opinion that seldomly gets adressed. It simply sucks on PotD if you can't deal damage because

 

a) you graze a lot in general in the early game (bad for light weapons)

b) you don't have decent damage bonuses

c) you only deal MIN damage because the DR is too high, also because of a) and b) (esp. true when using single damage weapons - or if the enemy is immune)

 

A very special ability in this regard is Torment's Reach: the faster you are the better. Because for the AoE it doesn't matter how low your weapon damage per hit is: it has its own base (crush) damage. And the use is not limited as long as you have wounds. So - for a monk with TR fast weapons are the best pick - like two flails, two daggers or two clubs for example.

 

With a melee cipher I simply hate it if I always have to pick the low DR (or non-resistant or -immune) targets in order to get decent focus - because it can mean you have to run around a lot (=dps drops a lot). That's another reason besides two damage types why I think flails are not as good for ciphers as they seem to be on paper. Although the cipher without any Full Attacks, with decent dmg bonuses and not much use for wounding seems to be the class that profits most from Unforgiven and Starcaller and such.

 

I think because of all those reasons light, fast weapons don't get used as often as the heavier ones.

 

Doing calculations while assuming the optimal situation and all is nice and great to compare stuff.

But it's very hard to factor all those things in that happen in a real playthrough.

 

I think most people who play rogues prefer heavy one handers because they simply made the experience that those weapons work better than flails, clubs, rapiers, stilettos or daggers.

 

It would have been smarter from OBS to declare Primary or Full Attacks not as a single or double strike (no matter the sluggishness of the weapon), but to allow more than one strike based on the speed of the weapon. A Primary Attack for light weapons could mean three swings with the same weapon while heavy one handers and two handers get two swings. Full Attack would simply add one additional swing (just some random thought). This would have made the lighter weapons more attractive for those x/encounter abilites. Now we have rogues who do "Backstabs" with a two hander or a blunderbuss instead of using daggers, ah well...

 

My priest of Eothas uses Unforgiven by the way. It's very good with Aggrandizing Radiance + Minor Avatar if you just want to smack people instead of casting them to ashes.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

BTW, if you are running a monk, there is no reason to use other weapon than his fists, except for those cases when you are fighting crush-immunes. Monk's fists are just incredibly awesome. It's a fast 1h weapon which deals 10-15 base damage with a bonus from the Transcendent Suffering.

 

Speaking about 1h melee weapons, I'd rate them in such an order:

 

1. Druid's claws (esp. cat's)

1.5. Druid's teeth (esp. boar's)

2. Monk's fists

3. Reaping Knives

4. Arguably, sabres

5. Everything else

Edited October 7, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

Transcendent Suffering's bonus damage is not counted as base damage and thus is not taken into account when calculating crits, Savage Attack and Apprentice's Sneak bonuses. However, it gets boosted by MIG. And it also doesn't change when you graze, which is a plus. Same with Sandals of the Forgotten Friar.

 

The bonus accuracy of Transcendent Suffering doesn't work with Torment's Reach, Force of Anguish or any other monk ability.

 

No lashes besides Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes.

 

No durgan steel (no speed bonus, no improved crit damage or chance).

 

Fists have no special on-strike effects like spellchance, overbearing or stunning which some weapons have. Those work with Torment's Reach's AoE and especially well with Enervating Blows.

 

So, besides the single damage type there are several reasons why a monk shouldn't stick to fists after the early game. Except if he wants to dabble in ranged combat, because The Long Pain + monk's abilities is the best ranged weapon of the whole game in my opinion (see Witch Doctor build for further info).

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

As I said, monk's fists are fast and heavy-hitting 1h weapon. That's incredibly good by itself. Monk's abilities are abilities, so they get +1 acc per level, which is good after you level up your char.

 

I take on-hit/on-crit effects on weapons like something rather underwhelming in most cases. Hit with your weapons and deal damage, and let the spellcasters to bother about disables. For me, that's the best way to go.

 

Fists not only cannot be durganized, but also should not be durganized. So you spare those precious durgan ingots for other purposes. And you still have your pretty sturdy and heavy-hitting melee warrior. You can't durganize all weapons and all armors for your chars if you go full-party.

 

Just roll a coastal aumaua with 21 Mig / 16 Con / 18 Dex / 3 Int and let him punch your enemies. Set AI behaviour to "Offensive", and he'll be using his abilities automatically from time to time, it's handy and not so much micro as it is discussed here. In practice, such a character will be inflicting a decent load of damage and debuffing a bit, meanwhile being very tanky. The aforementioned mechanics of having fast and simultaneously heavy-hitting weapon for rising up your DPS works here very well, just max out your Mig. This monk crushes his enemies with just his bare fists and does this pretty well, what else to desire? If you give him some weapons, this would only weaken him - or your party.

 

Of course, if you are going solo or running a party of spellcasters, for example, then things can be different, and you may pick a good weapon for your monk (but, for me, a fighter is better suited for weapons than a monk).

 

So, if you want to use DW blades in your party, roll a fighter, a rogue, a barb or even a cipher. If you want to have a melee warrior in your party and spare weapons and durgan ingots, roll a monk.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

Eh?

 

There's no doubt that fists are a good alternative for several reasons.

 

But you said there is no reason for a monk to not use fists - and that's not right.

 

I showed that there are several possible reasons why you might not want to use fists.

 

Some or all or none of those points may have impact on your build or your playstyle.

[Moneo]

Eh?

 

There's no doubt that fists are a good alternative for several reasons.

 

But you said there is no reason for a monk to not use fists - and that's not right.

 

I showed that there are several possible reasons why you might not want to use fists.

 

Some or all or none of those points may have impact on your build or your playstyle.

 

Well, I admit I was too rigid in that sentence

[Boeroer]

 
 

By the way, speaking of monks and fire lashes: did anybody ever tried Firebrand on a monk with Scion of Flame, Two Handed Style, Lightning Strikes and Turning Wheel? I reckon that the high lashes combined with the high base damage of 25 + Annihilation + Damaging III might be pretty awesome? Maybe add Battle Forged and Runner's Wounding Shot as well...

 

Sadly, I didn't...

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

This could be powerful, but to use Firebrand effectively you need to have high Int, not to mention other stats. I've only played with low-to-mid-Int monks. This class relies on many stats, and not so many stat-points go in Int. The build you described performs a strong but IMO too narrow approach. It requires definitely a lot of micro and, perhaps, resting.

 

On the other side, a monk with fists and "Offensive" AI option is quite easy in managing. I had a great experience playing with such a build, it's a powerhouse, and the only reason I fired him is that he doesn't perform well enough with Reaping Knives.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Moneo