The best frontman

[Slack83er]

Hi there, I'm trying to figure out what the best frontman of the game could be. It's just an exercise of the mind, nothing more, but I wonder if some kind of character like this could be viable:

 

Someone who can:

 

-Talk with people and get most answers availabile

-Scout ahead and come back just to remove fog of war 

-Disable traps

-Fight ahead of the front of the party

-Of course survive..

 

All this may sound like a rogue, but I'm sure maybe some of you may have different approaches to the concept, or maybe have even played this archetype. 

 

Difficulty is not important, as aren't race, bg, whatever, as long as you reach the abovementioned purpose.

Someone ever tried?

[smjjames]

Your main character is the only one that actually uses the dialogue options, regardless of who approaches and starts the conversation. So, that one is moot as the only times the companions talk freely (other than when you're talking to them, obviously) are in interjections and some quest related interactions.

 

As for traps, since anybody can use the mechanics skill, well, anybody can do it. I have Aloth as my traps/lockpicker guy atm.

[Slack83er]

No no..I'm talking about player characters. Imagine a character whose main point is not simple and plain fighting but excelling as a group guide. A real leader like in table top rpgs.. the one you always send ahead because he's the best party frontman.

[Belfaldurnik]

You cannot do all of that. High Stealth for scouting ahead, high Mechanics for locating secrets and disarming traps, high Survival for resting bonus options. Not enough skill points for that. You need very high Mechanics to disarm some traps, and even if using items, rare scrolls and resting bonuses to boost Mechanics, it would be tedious at most and would require you to spend all skill points into Mechanics.

 

Rogue only gets +1 to Stealth and suffers from low base Deflection, very low Endurance and low Health. It takes some effort to make them durable enough as frontliners.

 

Talking to people is not about "getting most answers available", but about getting different options based on your disposition, reputation, attributes (such as high RES, high INT, high MIG), race, cultural background, Paladin Order, chosen god. You cannot cover all of that with a single character or a single playthrough. Say, with high RES you may be able to resolve conflicts peacefully more often than with high MIG and intimidation or with aggressive/cruel disposition and poor reputation.

 

Chanter, Monk, Paladin or Fighter are versatile enough as frontline jack-of-all-trades, but better let one companion focus on Mechanics.

[Slack83er]

Chanter, Monk, Paladin or Fighter are versatile enough as frontline jack-of-all-trades, but better let one companion focus on Mechanics.

Mmm... does mechanics also allow you to SPOT traps or only to disarm them? 

I have a monk in my playthrough which is doing good, and I wonder if with stealth I will be able to spot the traps...

 

I'm saying this because...well I don't understand how it works...that is:

 

If I'm the frontliner, then it's me who goes ahead. But if I don't spot traps we'll be all dead in no time..

Edited May 12, 2017 by Slack83er

[Belfaldurnik]

Mechanics is the skill to spot traps and other hidden things, such as levers and loot areas. No, it's not Perception as some people still claim.

 

Skill value needed to spot a trap may be lower than skill needed to disarm the trap.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Belfaldurnik

[Slack83er]

No, it's not Perception as some people still claim.

Pity, it would have been more logic that way...

[JerekKruger]

Skill value needed to spot a trap may be lower than skill needed to disarm the trap.

 

I'm almost certain this is the case, since I have detected traps that I can't disarm. However I am not quite sure whether it's easier to spot traps whilst in stealth mode or not (I think it is but haven't done any tests).

[Slack83er]

I've found this line in the wikia:

Traps are both hazards and usable items in Pillars of Eternity.

Hostile traps are invisible by default. The mechanics skill is used to spot and disarm hostile traps. Being in scouting mode lowers the difficulty check for spotting a trap.

[Blades of Vanatar]

A Chanter built for Dialogue would be my choice. With a starting bump in Mechanics and no super need for Dex and Per the Chanter can easily be party mouthpiece, scout, trap springer and Tank with hatchet/shield setup. All the while Deagon Slashing. I'd say he is perfect for the task. I have used this exact build it is definitely a winner. There are lots of items that boost skills plus rest bonuses that the Chanter can easily excel at all Party leader needs.

[Slack83er]

A Chanter built for Dialogue would be my choice. With a starting bump in Mechanics and no super need for Dex and Per the Chanter can easily be party mouthpiece, scout, trap springer and Tank with hatchet/shield setup. All the while Deagon Slashing. I'd say he is perfect for the task. I have used this exact build it is definitely a winner. There are lots of items that boost skills plus rest bonuses that the Chanter can easily excel at all Party leader needs.

Give me some more insight...race...stats...bg...

[Belfaldurnik]

 

No, it's not Perception as some people still claim.

Pity, it would have been more logic that way...

 

 

Not really. You do need the knowledge/education to recognize mechanical devices.

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Perception

 

 

 

Skill value needed to spot a trap may be lower than skill needed to disarm the trap.

 

I'm almost certain this is the case, since I have detected traps that I can't disarm. However I am not quite sure whether it's easier to spot traps whilst in stealth mode or not (I think it is but haven't done any tests).

 

 

It is the case. I could have written "can be lower" instead of "may be lower" to be more clear.

 

Give me some more insight...race...stats...bg...

 

Uh, come on. The game will be less fun if you want to follow build guides. There are many ways to be successful in the game. Spend a little bit of time in the character creation screens and read all the details there. That's most important. Then decide what you like. In the game you can retrain your characters at any inn keeper's interface for a bit of gold. Not the race, the sex and the cultural background, but the attributes and talents.

[Slack83er]

If a certain build works wonders with a certain setup, then why not follow it? 

This isn't a tabletop rpg that I can freely interpret what's on my mind. This games follow scripted rules that some setups exploit more than others, so I'm just curious to hear them..

[Belfaldurnik]

 

If a certain build works wonders with a certain setup, then why not follow it?

 

 

No build "works wonders" in this game. Jump into the fray, and you are killed in less than a few seconds. That's because you won't be unhittable, and due to the four different defenses and the Miss/Graze/Hit/Crit system, a single Graze can cause devastating afflictions that let enemies get rid of you at the blink of an eye.

 

For the easier difficulty modes, no special builds are needed. One can play the game almost like an action rpg. Hack'n'slash with a group of tough warriors. Perhaps one Cipher and Chanter for unlimited per encounter spells. Overthink it, and your party may become weaker.

 

And if you wanna play at the higher difficulty modes, what works wonders is hands on experience.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Belfaldurnik

[scythesong]

For the record you cannot fully remove the fog of war unless you have someone stand in that location indefinitely.

 

Personally I'm not a big fan of chanter tanks since there's a lot of other nice things they can be doing, and while the build is definitely solid you already get one with Kana anyway.

Edited May 12, 2017 by scythesong

[Slack83er]

Nono, I play easy mode anyway, I favor roleplay over the rest so difficulty is not as important as story plot for me.

 

I'm just thinking at the two characters that I got on the scales: monk and chanter. Two different approaches, two different playstyles, both suit me. What I'd like, as I said at the beginning, is be an excellent frontman, not just the one with the most hp or the bigger fist.

[Belfaldurnik]

Your scout can be anyone of the companions, even with low Stealth skill. Or let the entire party move forward with just one point in Stealth for everyone. Use a customized party formation, so the trap finder is near the front. Scout ahead, retreat if you spot enemies you don't want to fight. I've played with a warrior Priest of Berath hireling a dozen times and have given that priest maximum Mechanics skill, but no more than 1 Stealth. As good a warrior such a priest can get, I would let others be at the front at start of combat.

 

Stealth becomes more interesting, if you want to sneak past enemies, instead of avoiding them, or sneaking past patrolling guards with someone - however, even when stealing a certain quest gem, Mechanics is more helpful and Stealth skill isn't strictly needed. Or if you want to have a Rogue join ongoing combat in Stealth mode to use the special backstab talent, which isn't worthwhile often. Some players also ignore the circumstance that you can remove and replace companions freely, and removed companions will be available at every inn and the stronghold, and meanwhile you can continue with a smaller or different party.

[ShadySands]

Let me just start off by saying I'm more than a little disappointed as I came in here ready to discuss the likes of Mick Jagger, Robert Plant, and Freddie Mercury.  

 

On topic, I also played mostly on easy and then story because I didn't care much for the combat in the game so I did everything with my PC, first playthrough a cipher and second a wizard.

[Slack83er]

What about the cipher? What does he excel into? Can he play frontman?

 

Let me just start off by saying I'm more than a little disappointed as I came in here ready to discuss the likes of Mick Jagger, Robert Plant, and Freddie Mercury.  

Epic win.

[smjjames]

No no..I'm talking about player characters. Imagine a character whose main point is not simple and plain fighting but excelling as a group guide. A real leader like in table top rpgs.. the one you always send ahead because he's the best party frontman.

 

Only the main characters stats are counted for the conversation dialogue stuff, so, it's kind of moot.

 

 

What about the cipher? What does he excel into? Can he play frontman.

 

 

If by frontman, you mean tank, then sure, melee ciphers are totally doable.

[Slack83er]

What about the cipher? What does he excel into? Can he play frontman.

 

If by frontman, you mean tank, then sure, melee ciphers are totally doable.

No. Tank is the least of the things that I care for. I have Edér in that role, Kana even. I care for dialogue options, trap detecting, scouting.. Try to imagine you're sitting at a table playing your favourite rpg. Now the group will elect someone who will be ahead during exploration, someone who can be the mouth of the group, and of course someone that can even hold his own if in combat. This doesn't necessarily mean tank. This is what I'm asking for. I know the player character is the one who speaks, but I want to do it properly and with many options.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Slack83er

[smjjames]

Since the skills are completely independent of character class and everything else, the scout and trap handler can be anybody. I mentioned earlier that I was using Aloth as the trap defuser and lockpicker.

[Belfaldurnik]

There is no "leader" position. Your main character will be the talker, regardless of the position within the party. Same for scripted interactions. In a few cases you can select companions in scripted interactions.

 

The only other important thing with regard to party formation is that the game sometimes does forced encounters, turning off Stealth and moving all companions to a fixed place close to enemies. Making the tanks the left-most characters at the bottom of the HUD can be helpful then.

[JerekKruger]

No. Tank is the least of the things that I care for. I have Edér in that role, Kana even. I care for dialogue options, trap detecting, scouting.. 

 

Well, as mentioned dialogue options are always handled by the main character: it doesn't matter if a dialogue is initiated by a companion who's scouting ahead, which options are available will be determined by the attributes, background and class of the main character. As for trap detection, that can be done by anyone since skills can be selected by any class. Sure Rogues can start with the highest mechanics but any character dedicated to the job of trap detection will be fine. Similarly for the stealth skill.

 

Try to imagine you're sitting at a table playing your favourite rpg. Now the group will elect someone who will be ahead during exploration, someone who can be the mouth of the group, and of course someone that can even hold his own if in combat. This doesn't necessarily mean tank. This is what I'm asking for. I know the player character is the one who speaks, but I want to do it properly and with many options.

 

What class you use for this (if you do this at all) is dependent on the game you're playing, because the rules of the game you're playing determine which character is best suited to this role. In Pillars there is very little difference between classes when it comes to fulfilling this role, so you can use whatever class you want. If you, for role-play reasons, want to use a class you think fits this role well (rogues, ranges etc.) that's fine, but that's completely a question of personal preference and other people can't really help you out.

 

Personally I don't really have a character doing this. I move my whole party as a group, making sure the person with the highest mechanics is near the front, and occasionally use Sagani (the only character I ever invest points into stealth with) to scout an encounter more carefully before engaging.

Edited May 13, 2017 by JerekKruger

[smjjames]

Or even have the scout be someone who can dart away quickly in case combat starts while scouting. Also useful when trying to kite some enemies out of a group. The rules in PoE regarding scouting, etc. are a whole lot looser than a tabletop RPG, so, you just have to realize that you have way more options than you would for a tabletop RPG.

 

If you want to have a wizard be your trap defuser guy or your scout, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so.

 

As for dialogue options, yes, right now, the only exceptions to your character being the one who talks are some quest related interactions and various interjections/commentary. However, from what I've heard for PoE2, that might change some since there will be more interactions between companions. I imagine it might be handled something like the way it was in Tyranny.