Things you want PoE 2 to specifically avoid if possible

[PizzaSHARK]

Oh, and another thing I would like to avoid is the huge amount of AoE.  Spell diversity needs to be upped.  I get that we need to make Intellect appealing, but so many spells are AoE that it becomes a bit bland.  Just look at the Druid, Wizard, and Chanter who almost require Intellect.  It's not a hard requirement like D&D, but it's a steep enough incentive that the requirement is there.  Anyway, it would make the game more tactical if there were more competitive single target abilities available.  It would also up build diversity in and of itself.  How many classes get huge benefits from Int?  Most of them IMHO.  Pally, Wizard, Barb, Cipher, Chanter, Druid, and Priest.  Where Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, and Monks can get away without it. 

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

I don't even understand why they felt the need to do away with D&D-style stats.  Pathfinder has stats that are core for classes, but that doesn't make the classes boring.  A Fighter may typically prefer Strength, but you can quite easily make a Dexterity Fighter instead (and this is quite common with limited rulebooks, where you want those Fighter levels to improve your Rogue's health pool, attack bonus, get some extra feats, etc.)  Pretty much all Wizards are going to pump their INT, but there's tons of wiggle room for other stats - do you want WIS so you can dip for some divine spells, do you pump CHA so you can be the party's face, do you want to pump DEX or STR for a back-up weapon when you're out of spells or against enemies with high spell resistance, do you invest heavily in CON to offset your class's small hit die?

 

I really just don't like the stat system they came up with for Pillars.  It feels excessively bland and MMO-like, especially since talents/feats have no stat requirements or anything like that.

[Durgarnkuld]

Can't say I agree. D&D stats are really one dimensional and boring for the most part. Sure, you can build a dex fighter and ****, but that just shifts your focus from STR to DEX. So what. I like that every stat does something in Pillars. Sure, it can always benefit from some tweaking, but I don't feel like: "Well, I don't need wisdom or charisma at all. Dump that ****."

Furthermore having saves tied to two stats is really smart, I think. It really always felt kind of OP that some stats had so much impact (like dex), while others did nothing (yeah, face of the party but no impact on anything relevant at all ...).

 

Dunno what kind of MMOs you played, but what's different from a max DEX WoW Hunter to a max DEX bowman in D&D style systems. Having to worry only about like two stats and no real drawback for it ... is boring.

 

Same goes for stat requirements in terms of talents. Well, this stat is ****? Guess we have to make it artificially important because this talents needs it! Deal with it. Meh.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of DnD or DnD style systems. But after some time you figure out the hard numbers you need and the rest becomes irrelevant.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Durgarnkuld

[draego]

I agree Durgarnkuld, i loved the stat system in Pillars. i want them to go down that road more where they attempt to make every stat relevant to every class. This makes class build diversity one of the best parts of the game.  Make it more repayable. 

[ShinsFortress]

Bugs.

 

I stopped playing PoE after buying WM1&2 and finding some time after returning from that section that I had a duplicate NPC in Caed Nua and their 'actual' character when I went to them had all items stripped.  It was quite a few hours after the return and I don't think I should have to replay all that just because such a fundamental bug scrubbed all a character's gear.

 

I hate bugs like that so much, I'd rather have less content than more bugs.

[Armanz]

 

(2 also heads off a potential problem: according to Josh Sawyer, PoE2 will be roughly the same length as PoE1. And yet after the stretch goals the level cap is going to be 20, whereas in vanilla PoE1 it was 12. Unless they're going to significantly speed up the pace of leveling, which I don't think I'd want, how to resolve this? One answer is to include more endgame-type content to keep us busy after the critical path is complete.)

Maybe they don't plan to make your chars actually hit lvl 20. Maybe it's just so that any future DLCs for the game won't have to raise the cap. Or maybe to allow mods or something, not sure there.

[PizzaSHARK]

Can't say I agree. D&D stats are really one dimensional and boring for the most part. Sure, you can build a dex fighter and ****, but that just shifts your focus from STR to DEX. So what. I like that every stat does something in Pillars. Sure, it can always benefit from some tweaking, but I don't feel like: "Well, I don't need wisdom or charisma at all. Dump that ****."

Furthermore having saves tied to two stats is really smart, I think. It really always felt kind of OP that some stats had so much impact (like dex), while others did nothing (yeah, face of the party but no impact on anything relevant at all ...).

 

Dunno what kind of MMOs you played, but what's different from a max DEX WoW Hunter to a max DEX bowman in D&D style systems. Having to worry only about like two stats and no real drawback for it ... is boring.

 

Same goes for stat requirements in terms of talents. Well, this stat is ****? Guess we have to make it artificially important because this talents needs it! Deal with it. Meh.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of DnD or DnD style systems. But after some time you figure out the hard numbers you need and the rest becomes irrelevant.

 

Right, but how is this different from Pillars?  Even without min-maxing there are stats that are obviously superior to others for specific classes.

 

Not only that, but the stats themselves don't make any sense.  How is the wizard with 18 Might strong enough to kick down a wall when the fighter with 14 Might isn't, even though the Fighter has trained with arms and armor their whole life while the wizard mostly just studies books?  How does increasing Intelligence increase the duration of a fighter's Knock Down or the AOE of a barbarian's yells?  Shouldn't Resolve be the stat that affects the barbarian's yells, since that's the stat that's tied to having a strong personality or presence (intimidation)?

 

Like I said, the stats feel very MMO-ified compared to traditional D&D stats.  Pillars is probably the least RP-friendly old-school RPG I've ever played, and the stat system and anemic feat/talent system has a lot to do with it.

[draego]

 

Can't say I agree. D&D stats are really one dimensional and boring for the most part. Sure, you can build a dex fighter and ****, but that just shifts your focus from STR to DEX. So what. I like that every stat does something in Pillars. Sure, it can always benefit from some tweaking, but I don't feel like: "Well, I don't need wisdom or charisma at all. Dump that ****."

Furthermore having saves tied to two stats is really smart, I think. It really always felt kind of OP that some stats had so much impact (like dex), while others did nothing (yeah, face of the party but no impact on anything relevant at all ...).

 

Dunno what kind of MMOs you played, but what's different from a max DEX WoW Hunter to a max DEX bowman in D&D style systems. Having to worry only about like two stats and no real drawback for it ... is boring.

 

Same goes for stat requirements in terms of talents. Well, this stat is ****? Guess we have to make it artificially important because this talents needs it! Deal with it. Meh.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of DnD or DnD style systems. But after some time you figure out the hard numbers you need and the rest becomes irrelevant.

 

Right, but how is this different from Pillars?  Even without min-maxing there are stats that are obviously superior to others for specific classes.

 

Not only that, but the stats themselves don't make any sense.  How is the wizard with 18 Might strong enough to kick down a wall when the fighter with 14 Might isn't, even though the Fighter has trained with arms and armor their whole life while the wizard mostly just studies books?  How does increasing Intelligence increase the duration of a fighter's Knock Down or the AOE of a barbarian's yells?  Shouldn't Resolve be the stat that affects the barbarian's yells, since that's the stat that's tied to having a strong personality or presence (intimidation)?

 

Like I said, the stats feel very MMO-ified compared to traditional D&D stats.  Pillars is probably the least RP-friendly old-school RPG I've ever played, and the stat system and anemic feat/talent system has a lot to do with it.

 

 

Its vastly different. Saying a stat is superior for a class (like in POE which is arguable for lots of classes) vs necessary for the class to even function (like in the BG games) is totally different. I really liked what the stats tried to accomplish. It makes build diversity within classes viable and more fun in POE. Hope they go this route even more in POE2. Just polish it.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

Can't say I agree. D&D stats are really one dimensional and boring for the most part. Sure, you can build a dex fighter and ****, but that just shifts your focus from STR to DEX. So what. I like that every stat does something in Pillars. Sure, it can always benefit from some tweaking, but I don't feel like: "Well, I don't need wisdom or charisma at all. Dump that ****."

Furthermore having saves tied to two stats is really smart, I think. It really always felt kind of OP that some stats had so much impact (like dex), while others did nothing (yeah, face of the party but no impact on anything relevant at all ...).

 

Dunno what kind of MMOs you played, but what's different from a max DEX WoW Hunter to a max DEX bowman in D&D style systems. Having to worry only about like two stats and no real drawback for it ... is boring.

 

Same goes for stat requirements in terms of talents. Well, this stat is ****? Guess we have to make it artificially important because this talents needs it! Deal with it. Meh.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of DnD or DnD style systems. But after some time you figure out the hard numbers you need and the rest becomes irrelevant.

 

Right, but how is this different from Pillars?  Even without min-maxing there are stats that are obviously superior to others for specific classes.

 

Not only that, but the stats themselves don't make any sense.  How is the wizard with 18 Might strong enough to kick down a wall when the fighter with 14 Might isn't, even though the Fighter has trained with arms and armor their whole life while the wizard mostly just studies books?  How does increasing Intelligence increase the duration of a fighter's Knock Down or the AOE of a barbarian's yells?  Shouldn't Resolve be the stat that affects the barbarian's yells, since that's the stat that's tied to having a strong personality or presence (intimidation)?

 

Like I said, the stats feel very MMO-ified compared to traditional D&D stats.  Pillars is probably the least RP-friendly old-school RPG I've ever played, and the stat system and anemic feat/talent system has a lot to do with it.

 

 

Its vastly different. Saying a stat is superior for a class (like in POE which is arguable for lots of classes) vs necessary for the class to even function (like in the BG games) is totally different. I really liked what the stats tried to accomplish. It makes build diversity within classes viable and more fun in POE. Hope they go this route even more in POE2. Just polish it.

 

 

Polishing may be good enough, but I don't see any difference in stat assignment.  Are you a direct damage dealer?  Max out your Might, no questions asked.

 

Tank?  Probably don't need Might, but you'll probably want to pump Resolve and Constitution, and probably Perception while you're at it.

 

Focused on buffs or disables?  Intelligence.

 

 

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from "all Wizards use INT" or "all Bards use Charisma."  The only difference might be that your role in Pathfinder is determined by spell choice (and for martial classes, feat chains) rather than your stat.

 

In some ways, Pillars' system is worse because of how the stats work.  Aloth, for example, will always be an utterly horrible choice for a damage Wizard because he only has 12 Might; instead, you need to run him as a control Wizard to maximize the impact of his 16 Intelligence.  Pallegina is kind of awful at everything because of her stats being all over the place - not enough CON to be a good tank, not enough MIG to be good at damage, etc.

 

This isn't necessarily a problem with the system so much as it's a problem with the companion design, though (compare Eder, who at 16 MIG and 16 CON is both acceptable as a DPS and as a tank, if not ideal for either.)  I do agree that the system has merit, and that it can become good if refined further, but in Pillars 1 I think it's categorically inferior to Pathfinder in terms of class customization as well as roleplaying.

Edited April 4, 2017 by PizzaSHARK

[draego]

Then you lack imagination. I have had runs where aloth was one of if not the top dps damager. 

 

 

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from "all Wizards use INT" or "all Bards use Charisma."  The only difference might be that your role in Pathfinder is determined by spell choice (and for martial classes, feat chains) rather than your stat.

 

Because in this game wizards dont need INT but in BG at least, i am not familiar with pnp pathfinder, Wizards had to have int or else you couldn't play them. That is a huge difference. Also priest, druid had to have wisdom for same reason but in this game they dont. And dont give me the companion stats sucks. That is the beauty of this game stats are not as important as you are making them out to be. Hiravias with the right build could spirit shift and do more dps damage than any melee character and he has 14 might. The stats are secondary to ability, talents, and gear.  If you cannot see what is different about the two systems then like i said you lack imagination for builds that are possible in this game as oppose to a game where Strength determines you damage and hit. Where int, wisdom were only really useful for casters. Where there were dump stats for every build because some stats were utterly meaningless. That is the description of an inferior system. I know some of that exist in POE but not to the extent of past games. 

 

Also the arguments about realistic stats are pretty ironic considering we are talking about a fantasy game.

Edited April 4, 2017 by draego

[PizzaSHARK]

Then you lack imagination. I have had runs where aloth was one of if not the top dps damager. 

 

 

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from "all Wizards use INT" or "all Bards use Charisma."  The only difference might be that your role in Pathfinder is determined by spell choice (and for martial classes, feat chains) rather than your stat.

 

Because in this game wizards dont need INT but in BG at least, i am not familiar with pnp pathfinder, Wizards had to have int or else you couldn't play them. That is a huge difference. Also priest, druid had to have wisdom for same reason but in this game they dont. And dont give me the companion stats sucks. That is the beauty of this game stats are not as important as you are making them out to be. Hiravias with the right build could spirit shift and do more dps damage than any melee character and he has 14 might. The stats are secondary to ability, talents, and gear.  If you cannot see what is different about the two systems then like i said you lack imagination for builds that are possible in this game as oppose to a game where Strength determines you damage and hit. Where int, wisdom were only really useful for casters. Where there were dump stats for every build because some stats were utterly meaningless. That is the description of an inferior system. I know some of that exist in POE but not to the extent of past games. 

 

Also the arguments about realistic stats are pretty ironic considering we are talking about a fantasy game.

 

"It's a fantasy game" is one of the dumbest, most pointless arguments ever made.  Stop making it, it makes you look incredibly foolish.

 

I don't lack imagination, I just have broad enough experience that I can see there's little functional difference between the systems.  You said you don't even know what Pathfinder is, so you honestly don't have enough experience with other systems to have a good opinion.  Go play 5E, go play Pathfinder, go play Shadowrun and a World of Darkness (old or new) game.  Go play some of the games JSawyer mentioned as inspirations for the tabletop version of Pillars they're working on.

 

The reason you're unable to see the obvious parallels between Pillars and those other systems, and why Pillars isn't particularly different, is because you don't have enough experience with other systems.

[draego]

 When you say stuff like:

 

In some ways, Pillars' system is worse because of how the stats work.  Aloth, for example, will always be an utterly horrible choice for a damage Wizard because he only has 12 Might; instead, you need to run him as a control Wizard to maximize the impact of his 16 Intelligence.  Pallegina is kind of awful at everything because of her stats being all over the place - not enough CON to be a good tank, not enough MIG to be good at damage, etc.

 

which is objectively not true its hard to take you seriously. And i suspect like i mentioned you cant imagine you could have a role in a party without having the most optimally perfect stats because you are married to systems where stats are the end all be all of builds, but that is the fun thing about POE you can build like you like and play almost any role. stats are for roleplaying in many ways just as much as mechanics so if you wanted to be a 10 might wizard damager you could be and still be good at it.

 

And to be honest i thought making might the single source of damage was a nice change to past DnD systems from BG to NWN.

Edited April 4, 2017 by draego

[Heijoushin]

Gentlemen, gentlemen! Attack the idea, not the poster.

 

The stat system in PoE is rather controversial and has been quite thoroughly discussed around here. I think it has its problems, but I see where the designers were coming from when they made it.

1. PoE’s stat system is designed to prevent "dump" stats. Now, granted, real min-max’ers will, by definition, always make dump stats, but generally speaking, there’s nothing that you can completely drop without some negative effects.
2. PoE’s stat system is also designed to make any character viable. An intelligent barbarian is viable in PoE, whereas it wouldn’t be in DnD. And if you’re a beginner who badly assigned his stats, you’re less screwed than you would be in DnD.
   In Icewind Dale, every single fighter I ever made was Str 18, dex 18, con 18. In PoE, it varies a bit depending on the role I want for them.  
3. "Might" is a little silly. It’s supposed to represent both physical strength and magical potency, but admittedly, in the dialogues it always comes off as physical strength, so your wizard always has the option to head-butt people. But I think this is a problem with the writing, not the system itself.
4. The companions are not perfectly optimized. For some people, this is a pretty big deal. I like to think of it as a touch of realism, as people aren’t perfectly optimized for their jobs in real life

Edited April 4, 2017 by Heijoushin

[HooAmEye]

I feel like this echoes my feelings on the subject quite nicely

 

[Varana]

If you can imagine Might only as physical strength, then your assumptions about a PoE wizard with high Might are simply wrong. He didn't just study books all the time; if your wizard has high Might, then obviously his training included a lot of physical exercise. If you can't imagine a wizard in the gym or in boot camp, then don't give them high Might.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Varana

[Ninjamestari]

If you can imagine Might only as physical strength, then your assumptions about a PoE wizard with high Might are simply wrong. He didn't just study books all the time; if your wizard has high Might, then obviously his training included a lot of physical exercise. If you can't imagine a wizard in the gym or in boot camp, then don't give them high Might.

Actually my dumbass wizard probably never studied a single book; he's a steroid-pumped gym-monster through and though, and is probably too stupid to even tell different letters apart, let alone read or write.

[Ninjamestari]

Polishing may be good enough, but I don't see any difference in stat assignment.  Are you a direct damage dealer?  Max out your Might, no questions asked.

 

Tank?  Probably don't need Might, but you'll probably want to pump Resolve and Constitution, and probably Perception while you're at it.

 

Focused on buffs or disables?  Intelligence.

 

 

I don't see how this is fundamentally different from "all Wizards use INT" or "all Bards use Charisma."  The only difference might be that your role in Pathfinder is determined by spell choice (and for martial classes, feat chains) rather than your stat.

 

In some ways, Pillars' system is worse because of how the stats work.  Aloth, for example, will always be an utterly horrible choice for a damage Wizard because he only has 12 Might; instead, you need to run him as a control Wizard to maximize the impact of his 16 Intelligence.  Pallegina is kind of awful at everything because of her stats being all over the place - not enough CON to be a good tank, not enough MIG to be good at damage, etc.

 

This isn't necessarily a problem with the system so much as it's a problem with the companion design, though (compare Eder, who at 16 MIG and 16 CON is both acceptable as a DPS and as a tank, if not ideal for either.)  I do agree that the system has merit, and that it can become good if refined further, but in Pillars 1 I think it's categorically inferior to Pathfinder in terms of class customization as well as roleplaying.

 

 

100% this. PoE traded away the class-specific min-max distribution in favor of a role specific min-max distribution, which is an even worse thing. Objectively speaking, the PoE stat system doesn't achieve a single goal it set out to achieve. It's just another min-max system, but feels more like an MMO than an RPG. You know, you're a tank, max out CON and RES and PER, kinda the same as with WoW, max out your STA and DEF and get to the HIT cap. This also causes a major disconnection between the stats and intuitive reality, which weakens immersion. The new stat system is the BIGGEST problem this game has.

 

And if Aloth manages to be the best dps in your group, then your group dps simply sucks. That's not you succeeding in "playing Aloth right", it's you completely failing to build your other characters.

[Varana]

 

If you can imagine Might only as physical strength, then your assumptions about a PoE wizard with high Might are simply wrong. He didn't just study books all the time; if your wizard has high Might, then obviously his training included a lot of physical exercise. If you can't imagine a wizard in the gym or in boot camp, then don't give them high Might.

Actually my dumbass wizard probably never studied a single book; he's a steroid-pumped gym-monster through and though, and is probably too stupid to even tell different letters apart, let alone read or write.

 

I really don't see a problem with this. *shrug*

 

Also, I seriously doubt that assertion that if Aloth is the main DPS character, the rest must suck, would hold up to actual scrutiny.

[rjshae]

If you can imagine Might only as physical strength, then your assumptions about a PoE wizard with high Might are simply wrong. He didn't just study books all the time; if your wizard has high Might, then obviously his training included a lot of physical exercise. If you can't imagine a wizard in the gym or in boot camp, then don't give them high Might.

 

Why can't Might be the same Physical Strength? Why can't the power of the magic in this world be based on your physique? It's a different world with different rules. Adapt to it. Deal with it as it is.

[draego]

 

 

If you can imagine Might only as physical strength, then your assumptions about a PoE wizard with high Might are simply wrong. He didn't just study books all the time; if your wizard has high Might, then obviously his training included a lot of physical exercise. If you can't imagine a wizard in the gym or in boot camp, then don't give them high Might.

Actually my dumbass wizard probably never studied a single book; he's a steroid-pumped gym-monster through and though, and is probably too stupid to even tell different letters apart, let alone read or write.

 

I really don't see a problem with this. *shrug*

 

Also, I seriously doubt that assertion that if Aloth is the main DPS character, the rest must suck, would hold up to actual scrutiny.

 

 

Ye it was more a comment about wizard having great martial and spell dps abilities. I dont get get what so hard to understand for some that the stats are secondary to abilities and gear and in wizards case spell selection.

 

This is the problem with all the arguments about how the attribute system is bad. Its fine if you dont like the system but dont start off your arguments saying things that aren't true. So comments like aloth must be a cc wizard or to build a character to do this they must have these stats and you must dump these other stats. None of this is true. or the below comment.

 

You know, you're a tank, max out CON and RES and PER

 

Again if you think this is the only way to make a front line tank in POE then you dont understand the system very well. Sure you can build front line characters this way but its in no way necessary especially if you go build tank wizard or priest but even for others especially companions like palligina who makes a good tank without the perfect stat setup.

 

I can empathize that you dont like the system but it did meet the goals of allowing you to role play the stats in the way you wanted and still play the combat role you saw fit. There was no min max requirement for any build ever. The game allows you to min max if you wanted but it wasn't ever necessary. To me that is an improvement on any system that had stats that you dumped no matter what and stats the were required no matter what you thought of your character. POE wasn't perfect and sure some stats worked better for some classes than other but working better isn't the same thing as REQUIRED. it just isn't and i know some of you wont agree but thats ok, your agreement is not required when you can beat the game with unoptimized companions and mc. That is a fact whether you like the system or not (which is subjective feeling which are valid but just don't say things that are not true to back up your feelings). 

Edited April 4, 2017 by draego

[Ninjamestari]

Also, I seriously doubt that assertion that if Aloth is the main DPS character, the rest must suck, would hold up to actual scrutiny.

 

 

A bold statement, I challenge you to go through that 'actual scrutiny'. The basic math is there, and Aloth is not a good dps character in comparison to what can be achieved, so if he's the best in your group, and he's not very good, then by definition the rest of your group must be even worse. If you can logically break that *without* succumbing to arguing through sentiment, like the people defending the system usually do, then I'd be amazed.

 

Objectively speaking the system of PoE restricts you to roles like "dps", "tank", "support" and "healer", and those roles determine your optimal stats. And since 4 roles are less than the 11 base classes and different multi-class variations D&D has, so *objectively* speaking PoE offers you *less* freedom in the way you can build your character than 3rd edition D&D. Most of the so-called choice in PoE is completely superficial, unlike D&D where those choices have a strong impact. This leads to the logical conclusion that PoE *is* the more shallow system, and D&D *has* more depth than PoE.

 

It's funny, and somewhat depressing, to see the mental gymnastics people go through in order to rationalize their defense of the PoE system. The reality is that they do not have any real standing arguments beside sentiment. This is a side effect of fanboyism, if you believe you may have contracted this dreadful disease somewhere, I recommend you seek medical attention immediately. It can truly have major negative consequences on your life.

[Ninjamestari]

Again if you think this is the only way to make a front line tank in POE then you dont understand the system very well. Sure you can build front line characters this way but its in no way necessary especially if you go build tank wizard or priest but even for others especially companions like palligina who makes a good tank without the perfect stat setup.

 

The game being ridiculously easy and the stats having ridiculously low overall impact do not make Pallegina into a good tank. Eder will out tank her 100% of the time. You can solo the entire game on PotD with any class, so being able to do something isn't a valid argument.

[Varana]

rjshae: That's what I was trying to say, as well.

 

Ninjamestari: If anything - what's the reverse of fanboyism? D&D and related (PF) stat systems should really be thrown out of the window, with a good kick in the rear.

Anyway, your claim is as good as mine. I can certainly live with that.

[draego]

 

Again if you think this is the only way to make a front line tank in POE then you dont understand the system very well. Sure you can build front line characters this way but its in no way necessary especially if you go build tank wizard or priest but even for others especially companions like palligina who makes a good tank without the perfect stat setup.

 

The game being ridiculously easy and the stats having ridiculously low overall impact do not make Pallegina into a good tank. Eder will out tank her 100% of the time. You can solo the entire game on PotD with any class, so being able to do something isn't a valid argument.

 

 

Then what are we talking about. Builds are not done in a vacuum. The point of the build is the play the game and the point of the stats are to help build your character to play the game, not some imaginary on paper setup. So yes if you can tank with palligina which you can easily then her stats are proof that the stat system works for POE in the way the devs said it could work. And yes paladin and chanters, like palligina, are better tanks thank fighters in this game but that is the beauty of the game. if you think a fighter is better than you can use that and i have used both palligina and Kana Rua as my tanks and won the game. It seems like your are making up imaginary goal post in your mind for what makes good builds but they dont mean anything outside the context of playing a beating the game. The goal of the stats was to allow diversity of builds and roles even within a classes and the stats met that goal. Just because you can't imagine how someone else could do that doesn't make what you are saying true.

 

if for a playthrough Aloth was my one of my main dps guys by using his martial and mostly dps spells instead of cc and i won the game, then it true that aloth can play that role of dps damager no matter what you say. The argument that i didn't do it right is stupid. i am not playing a mmo or competing with you on who does the most damage or what build has the highest damage potential. I am playing the game to win the game, that is it. So if my builds did it without min maxing or choosing the 'right' stats in your eyes, the what your are saying isn't true. I am giving you an example that proves you dont need min max or certain stats to win. I dont get what so hard to understand.

 

I actually dont care that you dont like the system and would rather another. I think that is fine. I am not trying to get you to like the stats. I am just pointing out that some of your reasons for not liking the stats aren't true and i gave you example of why they aren't true. If you don't believe me that is fine its doesn't make what i did any less invalid or untrue.

Edited April 4, 2017 by draego

[Ninjamestari]

Ninjamestari: If anything - what's the reverse of fanboyism? D&D and related (PF) stat systems should really be thrown out of the window, with a good kick in the rear.

Anyway, your claim is as good as mine. I can certainly live with that.

 

False, your claim isn't as good as mine, your claim isn't even good, while mine is a clearly observable fact. Also I've never even played PF, I have no stakes on that game what-so-ever, and that has nothing to do with anything. I often give people multiple threads to follow, the smart thread for people genuinely interested in the subject matter and the stupid thread for people who aren't. It's useful in determining the kind of person I'm dealing with. I'll let you guess which thread you followed.

 

Builds are not done in a vacuum. The point of the build is the play the game and the point of the stats are to help build your character to play the game, not some imaginary on paper setup. So yes if you can tank with palligina which you can easily then her stats are proof that the stat system works for POE in the way the devs said it could work.

 

Builds do not exist in a vacuum, but being able to play succesfully isn't a validation of quality. You can drive a Lada from point a to point b, doesn't make it into any less ****ty car.

 

And yes paladin and chanters are better tanks thank fighters in this game but that is the beauty of the game. if you think a fighter is better than you can use that and i have used both palligina and Kana Rua as my tanks and won the game. 

 

Another false statement and another false argument. Being better can be determined with math, and Paladins and Chanters are objectively worse than fighters. Whether you like to have them in that role more bears no consequence on this discussion, we're not interested in personal preference here

 

if for a playthrough Aloth was my one of my main dps guys by using his martial and mostly dps spells instead of cc and i won the game, then it true that aloth can play that role of dps damager no matter what you say. The argument that i didn't do it right is stupid. 

 

Aloth doesn't do good damage, his build doesn't exist in a vacuum and any character properly built for damage can outperform him. If Aloth is your top damage, then by definition the damage of your other characters is even less, and thus your other damage characters are even worse. This is so basic logic that if you are unable to follow it then no one can help you. Yes, you can use Aloth as a main damage dealer and beat the game. No, that doesn't make Aloth a good damage dealer.

 

This whole "my subjective experience is as valid as yours" is not a valid argument, it's just trying to pretend that the value of things cannot be determined, usually out of the fear that oneself might be found lacking in value. People who actually think things through and understand what they're talking about do not fall back on this, and they will not respect that position because they know it to be false. One person's ignorance is not worth as much as another person's knowledge, not even close, and hiding behind that mentality will never get you anywhere.

[draego]

 

It's funny, and somewhat depressing, to see the mental gymnastics people go through in order to rationalize their defense of the PoE system. The reality is that they do not have any real standing arguments beside sentiment. This is a side effect of fanboyism, if you believe you may have contracted this dreadful disease somewhere, I recommend you seek medical attention immediately. It can truly have major negative consequences on your life.

 

 

I dont understand the gymnastics. I play the game they way i wanted without min maxing using for instance using aloth as mostly a dps and won the game, and i have used him in other runs as cc but so what. That proves your statements are wrong. I dont have to go into anything specific about the stats to prove this point. The dev claimed you could role play the stats and play the game in they way you wanted and i did that and it worked. There is no complicated arguments here just an example to prove the devs meet the goal they stated for the stats. I am giving you a data point, a provable fact not my belief.

 

And i am not claiming that aloth or any one has the perfert dps or tanking stats but the goal for POE wasnt you can win and play only if you have the perfect stats.

Edited April 4, 2017 by draego