question about dots and hots

[Madscientist]

- How is damage over time calculated?

 

Lets say an effect is described as: "causes 30 points of damage over x seconds"

Let us also assume that the enemy has 10DR

 

My first guess would be:

 

low int (x = 3 seconds)

After 3 seconds the enemy takes 20 damage (30damage - 10DR)

 

medium int (x = 6 seconds)

after 3 and 6 seconds the enemy gets 5 damage ( 15damage - 10DR after 3 sec + 15damage - 10DR after 6 sec = 10 damage total)

 

high int (x = 9sec)

after 3, 6 and 9 seconds the enemy takes 2 damage = 6 damage total (3*10damage - 10DR, 20%min damage each)

 

- Is healing over time the same (high int = bad) and the only difference is that the DR = 0?

So the amount is always the same and the only difference is the time it takes to add x endurance.

[Phenomenum]

As i know, DoT effects ALWAYS bypass DR.

[Boeroer]

Nope. Only raw damage DoTs bypass DR completely.

 

The other DoT ticks have to overcome a fractional part of DR. 

 

Concerning INT, there are diffferent types of DoT effects: ones that do more damage with more INT and others that are not dependent on INT.

The first group works in a way that INT adds more of the same ticks and therefore adds damage with ongoing duration. So here higher INT is better.

In the second group the overall damage is fixed and gets spread over the duration. Obviously, in this case it's benefical to have low INT because the damage is applied more quickly.

 

The first group are things like Envenomed Strike, Shining Beacon, The Dragon Thrashed and Deep Wounds for example. The second group would be wounding enchantment, Boar Tusks (druid), (Runners) Wounding Shot and also Enduring Flames (Goldpact Knights).

 

For healing effects: There are a few healing effects which are instant and therefore don't rely on INT at all (Triumph of the Crusaders, Healing Chain and so on). All the others work better with high INT. INT will always add more healing ticks.

 

For more in-depth knowledge on DR and DoTs let's ask Dr. MaxQuest: "Dr. MaxQuest, please take over!"

Edited February 26, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Nope. Only raw damage DoTs bypass DR completely.

 

The other DoT ticks have to overcome a fractional part of DR. 

 

Concerning INT, there are diffferent types of DoT effects: ones that do more damage with more INT and others that are not dependent on INT.

The first group works in a way that INT adds more of the same ticks and therefore adds damage with ongoing duration. So here higher INT is better.

In the second group the overall damage is fixed and gets spread over the duration. Obviously, in this case it's benefical to have low INT because the damage is applied more quickly.

 

The first group are things like Envenomed Strike, Shining Beacon, The Dragon Thrashed and Deep Wounds for example. The second group would be wounding enchantment, Boar Tusks (druid), (Runners) Wounding Shot and also Enduring Flames (Goldpact Knights).

 

For healing effects: There are a few healing effects which are instant and therefore don't rely on INT at all (Triumph of the Crusaders, Healing Chain and so on). All the others work better with high INT. INT will always add more healing ticks.

 

For more in-depth knowledge on DR and DoTs let's ask Dr. MaxQuest: "Dr. MaxQuest, please take over!"

 

This occurs to me to be something we should probably be pointing out as a thing they can improve on or fix in PoE II.

[Phenomenum]

Ouch. Sorry for misinform then.

So, if we have corrode DoT (druid 2-rd level spell), which hits 100 dmg over 15 seconds (5 ticks) for example, how DR 20 will be spread over this time? Each damage part must overcome trough DR=20/5? Am i right?

Edited February 26, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Madscientist]

Ok this means:

 

short answer: well, its complicated . . .

 

long answer:

- There are very few cases where low int is better, usually its better to have higher int (That would be good if it is true)

- From looking at the description alone you cannot predict the exact effect of a spell (Like you will have x ticks every y seconds and each tick does z damage or healing)

- When you read "causes a points over b seconds", you can be sure that it lasts b seconds, but you cannot be sure that the sum of all ticks will be a (even if we ignore DR)

Actually I am not even sure if the damage/healing number refers to a single tick or the sum of all ticks.

 

bonus questions:

- If it is an initial hit + dot, the dot damage depends on the base damage of the initial hit ?

- Lashes apply x% of the initial hit against 25% of the DR ?

[Boeroer]

@bonus questions:
- Those are two independent rolls.
- yes, if they are 25% lashes. A corrosive lash on a weapon will have to overcome 25% corrode DR. A FoD lash of 50% will also have to overcome 50% 25% of the burn DR. A wounding lash will bypass DR completely.

A talent like Intense Flames will not increase the original FoD lash but add a second one. It will not increase the original lash from 50 to 75%. So a paladin who uses FoD with an arquebus which has a burning lash and who also has Intense Flames will attack with three lashes: 25% against 1/4 burn DR + 50% against 1/2 1/4 burn DR + 25% against 1/4 burn DR. In this case Scion of Flame would be very beneficial.

Same for druids with Wildstrike, Greater Wildstrike and Wildstrike Belt. Although the last has some weird, powerful mechanics.
Or monks with Turning Wheel + Lightning Strikes + burning lash on a weapon... and so on.

You can see why blunderbusses are not good with lashes against high DR targets. Pen. Shot and all DR bypass things only apply to the initial hit, not the lashes. Things like Expose Vulnerabilities are good in this case.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

All lashes are done against 25% DR, so a paladin with FoD, Intense Flames and burning lash will do 100% burn damage against 75%DR (because there are 3 lashes). If you add also Scion of Flame it will become 120% burn damage vs 75% DR.

 

PS. Enduring Flames seems to have now a fixed duration and its damage isn't affected by INT anymore. It deals 50% burn damage against 100%DR (because there are a fixed 4 ticks) but each tick is affected by MIG and someone with 30MIG will do 80% burn damage overall instead. A paladin could end adding 200% burn damage against 175% DR which means you can one shot many enemies with an arquebus or Firebrand.

[Boeroer]

Ah oops. Sorry for the FoD against 50%. To be honest a got corrected about that already in the past, but it sticks in my head for whatever stupid reason. Edited my post accordingly.

 

 

PS. Enduring Flames seems to have now a fixed duration and its damage isn't affected by INT anymore. 

 It deals 50% burn damage against 100%DR (because there are a fixed 4 ticks) but each tick is affected by MIG and someone with 30MIG will do 80% burn damage overall instead. A paladin could end adding 200% burn damage against 175% DR which means you can one shot many enemies with an arquebus or Firebrand.

Yeah, it's all a bit weird and not intuitive. Wounding works nearly the same, but without the DR of course. A damage oriented paladin with very high MIG and lowish INT should go for wounding (with Tidefall for example), FoD + Intense Flames + burning lash + Scion of Flame + Enduring Flames (doesn't profit from Scion) and Runner's Wouding Shot (or in this case: Strike).

 

Bonus question from me: if the lash doesn't overcome the 25% DR, is there MIN damage or is it eaten up completely? Never thought about that before...

Edited February 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[peddroelm]

 

 

Bonus question from me: if the lash doesn't overcome the 25% DR, is there MIN damage or is it eaten up completely?

yes eaten completely. There are some unique weapons that have inherent 10% crush lash (justice ? 2h sword and a mace or flail ). Which you will seldom see in the combat log since it very rarely makes it past the 0.25 crush DR.

 

One of the main reason lightning strikes was trash before the buff from 10% vs 0.25 DR ..

Edited February 27, 2017 by peddroelm

[Madscientist]

That means it makes sense to add as many effects to the initial hit as possible, because everything except the initial hit rolls against 25% of DR (except raw damage, not sure about dots). You made this here http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87846-class-monksterlasher-elemental-lashing-retaliating-offensive-tank/

(off topic: maybe I use something similar one day. My paladin will be good, I already finished the game with a barbarien, so a monk might be a good choice for brutal bastard (= somebody with lots of mig and con who is beating his way through tons of enemies.))

 

-----------------------------

 

Would it make sense to change the description of dots to:

"causes x damage/healing every y seconds for z seconds"

 

example: The spell "Dot of Doom" causes 10 fire damage every second for 5 seconds.

If high int increases the duration to 5.6 sec, a final tick of 6 damage is applied after 5.6 seconds

If you take scion of flames (or might+), it would be 12 points every second.

Somewhere in the game should be written that all dots go against x% of DR, excepts when it is raw damage.

 

If you think that it makes sense, we might add this as suggestion to PoE2.

[Boeroer]

 

 

 

Bonus question from me: if the lash doesn't overcome the 25% DR, is there MIN damage or is it eaten up completely?

yes eaten completely. There are some unique weapons that have inherent 10% crush lash (justice ? 2h sword and a mace or flail ). Which you will seldom see in the combat log since it very rarely makes it past the 0.25 crush DR.

 

One of the main reason lightning strikes was trash before the buff from 10% vs 0.25 DR ..

 

Ah - thanks. Then that's the reason why I never see the burn damage of torches get applied. You can enchant a torch with any non-burning lash and that will show in the log, but the inherent 10% burning lash won't. I always thought it's just bugged.

[MaxQuest]

Who summoned me?  
 

---

  
DoTs and what we know about them:
- they deal damage over time. duh
- first tick deals damage immediately on 0s.
- attack resolution is checked only once (when the DoT was being applied); but enemy DR is checked on each tick.
- they do not benefit from elemental talents, like: Scion of Flame, Spirit of Decay, etc.
- they do not benefit from creature talents, like: Beast Slayer, Ghost Hunter, etc.
- their ticks do not trigger Combusting Wounds. (checked in v3.05)
- dots should not be confused with spells that deal periodic damage (like Sacred Immolation, Storm of Holy Fire or Symbol of <Deity>)
 .- dots' description always specifies that they deal a set x amount of damage over y duration..  
 
There are two types of DoTs (by tick-rate):
- hazard DoTs have a tick rate interval of 1s (but afaik there are no hazard DoTs in the game; so forget it)
- regular DoTs have a tick rate interval of 3s, e.g:
 .- if DoT deals damage over 12s, it means it will apply tick damage at: 0s, 3s, 6s, 9s, 12s
 .- if DoT deals damage over 11s, it means it will apply tick damage at: 0s, 3s, 6s, 9s, 11s; but the last tick will deal less damage.
- notes: Cleansing Flames doubles tick rate of all applied DoTs, for the duration of it's effect. Meaning that DoTs will tick every 1.5s, yet they do retain their total duration.
 
There are two types of DoTs (by the way they scale with Int)
- regular (like Shining Beacon, Disintegration, Soul Ignition) - their duration is increased by Int, and so is total damage.
- fixed (like Wounding Shot, Wounding) - their duration is increased by Int, but total damage remains the same. I.e. higher Int reduces dps.
 
How the total (pre-DR) damage is calculated?
- total_damage (regular DoT)(before DR) = base_damage * (1 + might_coef + deatblows_coef + fighting_spirit_coef + ...) * (1 + intellect_coef) * hit_quality_modifier
- total_damage (fixed   DoT)(before DR) = base_damage * (1 + might_coef + ?)
- notes:
 .- we know that wounding DoT does benefit from might twice. First it amplifies the weapon hit, from which the 25% is taken. And second it applifies the DoT damage itself. Maybe deathblows affect it in similar manner, but I haven't tested, and tbh doubt it.
 
How duration is calculated?
- total_duration = base_duration * (1 + intellect_coef) * hit_quality_modifier
- hit_quality_modifier = 0.5 (graze)
- hit_quality_modifier = 1.0 (hit)
- hit_quality_modifier = 1.5 (crit)
- afaik stuff like bonus damage on crit (e.g. The Merciless Hand) does not affect duration in any way.
 
How the tick damage is pre-calculated?
- let's say we have Shining Beacon that deals 80 base damage over 9s of default duration
- a character with 10 mig / 16 int, would deal 104 damage over 11.7s
- the system first calculates the amount of ticks: count = (total_duration + 3) / 3
- in our case count equals 4.9. This means there will be:
 .- 4 full ticks for 21.22 damage (104/4.9)
 .- 1 incomplete tick for 19.10 damage (21.22 * (4.9 - 4))
 
How is DoT damage affected by DR?
- each tick of non-raw DoT goes against 0.25 of target's current DR (checked at each tick; not when DoT is applied).
- there is no MIN going through, meaning that a tick can be eaten completely.
 
Fun facts:
- although on first sight it might appear that hit quality does affect only total_damage but not the dps; for non-raw DoTs it's not completely true, because of ticks dealing lower damage, and thus more being blocked by DR. E.g. a character with 10 might and 10 int casts a Shining Beacon:
 .- hit  :  80.00 damage over  9.00s | 8.888 pre-DR dps | 4 ticks of 20
 .- graze:  40.00 damage over  4.50s | 8.888 pre-DR dps | 2 ticks of 16.00 damage plus 1 tick of 8
 .- crit : 120.00 damage over 13.50s | 8.888 pre-DR dps | 5 ticks of 21.81 damage plus 1 tick of 10.9
- stacking seems to follow no specific rules:
 .- stuff like Dragon Thrashed, Wounding, Shining Beacon - does stack completely.
 .- stuff like Disintegration, Deep Wounds, Soul Ignition - uses an override mechanism. Afaik it is: if the new instance has duration greater than remaining_duration of existing DoT, new appliance will override the older one; otherwise not. But feel free to correct me on that.
 .- imho, there should be clear rules for stacking in PoE2. Edited February 28, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

What's even more confusing is that we have 3 types of wounds and all work differently:

- Deep Wounds - doesn't stack, its total damage depends on MIG/INT

- Wounding enchantment - stacks, its total damage depends on your weapon damage and MIG

- (Runner) Wounding Shot - stacks, its total damage depends on your weapon damage, MIG and enemies DR

[Madscientist]

Thanks a lot

 

3 questions:

- By stacking do you mean the dot stacks with itself? You can apply as many different effects as you like.

- Does Int coefficient means that the duration is 10% longer? In that example, the total damage number would be 10% higher than the base value.

- Is there no difference between healing and damage? Healing is always against 0DR, I guess.

[MaxQuest]

1. Yes, stacking with itself. For example you can cast 4 Shining Beacons one after another, and no ticks will be lost. While with Envenomed Strike you'd better wait it's full duration before applying it again.

2. Depends on Int. If you have 12 int, coefficient is 1.10. If you have 20 int, coefficient is 1.5. If damage coefficient is 1 and hit_quality is 'hit', than yes total damage of regular dot is directly proportional with int coef.

3. Yes, no DR). Also a HoT is auto-hit. There is no attack resolution.

Edited February 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

Boeroer, you said:

"Concerning INT, there are diffferent types of DoT effects: ones that do more damage with more INT and others that are not dependent on INT.

The first group works in a way that INT adds more of the same ticks and therefore adds damage with ongoing duration. So here higher INT is better.

In the second group the overall damage is fixed and gets spread over the duration. Obviously, in this case it's benefical to have low INT because the damage is applied more quickly.

 

The first group are things like Envenomed Strike, Shining Beacon, The Dragon Thrashed and Deep Wounds for example. The second group would be wounding enchantment, Boar Tusks (druid), (Runners) Wounding Shot and also Enduring Flames (Goldpact Knights)."

 

and then I asked: "If it is an initial hit + dot, the dot damage depends on the base damage of the initial hit ?"

and you said: "Those are two independent rolls."

 

 

I have the feeling that there is something wrong. When I look at examples of the second group (low int means the fixed amount of damage is applied faster), those are the ones where the dot is x% of the initial hit applied over time. The term fixed refers to the amount of the initial hit. This would mean there is no second roll.

 

Can you give me an example where you have one roll for the initial hit and another roll for a dot caused by this hit?

I know that there is a second roll if there is a status effect on hit, but at the moment I cannot remember a second roll for damage.

 

When writing this I found more questions:

- Do dots cause an interrupt roll? (If yes, is it the initial roll or each tick?)

- I just wrote that status effects on hit use a second roll. I know this is true for "normal" status effects. What about unique on hit effects of some weapons (marked, desoriented, . . . ). Are they always applied or is there a roll? If there is a roll, against what defense is rolled?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

This discussion is really detailed and useful.

 

Is there  any single thread in the PoE 2 subforum that collects all the wierd errata like this that should really be corrected in PoE 2?

 

I'm thinking things like this, the absurdly overcomplicated attack speed calculations, the problem with shield bash lowering DPS, etc?

[Boeroer]

@MadScientist:

 

I thought you meant things like Necrotic Lance, Touch of Rot and Autum's Decay. Those have an instant damage part, followed by a DoT effect. Usually it's around 50:50. My answer was aimed at those things. Sorry if I confused you guys.

[Madscientist]

This discussion is really detailed and useful.

 

Is there  any single thread in the PoE 2 subforum that collects all the wierd errata like this that should really be corrected in PoE 2?

 

I'm thinking things like this, the absurdly overcomplicated attack speed calculations, the problem with shield bash lowering DPS, etc?

 

- Dots and lashes are really complicated and it is not well explained in the game. You need to read this wall of text from MaxQuest to understand it.

They should change the description to: "Dot of Doom causes 10 fire damage every 3 seconds for 9 seconds (= 40damage total) vs 25% of DR."

For lashes it should be similar.

 

- If I understand attack speed correctly, only dex influences everything, everything else affects only recovery speed.

So the description for "whatever of speed" should be changed to "Reduces recovery time by 20% of base value."

 

- I do not think it is a problem that bashing shields reduce DPS. The main purpose of a shield is to give you protection. It seems normal that you do less damage if you attack with shields compared to attacking with weapons only.

 

- The description "increases damage by 20%" schould be changed to "increases damage by 20% of base value."

The formula is: damage = base * (1 + mod1 + mod2 + . . . )

So if you already have sneak attack, a critical hit and an excellent weapon, a +20% damage talent will increase your damage by less then 20%.

[Madscientist]

@MadScientist:

 

I thought you meant things like Necrotic Lance, Touch of Rot and Autum's Decay. Those have an instant damage part, followed by a DoT effect. Usually it's around 50:50. My answer was aimed at those things. Sorry if I confused you guys.

Thanks, those where the examples I wanted.

I cannot remember most spells, because I do not play that often and only on normal or hard.

[Madscientist]

One more bonus question:

When I hit with a dot, the combat log says "Ability x causes x damage over y seconds."

What happens if the enemy DR changes during the dot?

Will the message in the combat log be wrong or will the dot ignore the change in DR? Or does the x refer to the base damage before DR?

[Boeroer]

The message will be wrong then - in hindsight.

 

If the DR changes during the duration ot the DoT effect then the ticks have to deal with the changed DR. This can be good - for example if your wizards casts Expose Vulnerabilities on an enemy that already suffers a DoT effect: the ticks will then the lower DR more easily. But when the DoT still is working and Expose V. wears of the ticks will have to overcome the higher DR again.

[MaxQuest]

This discussion is really detailed and useful.

Is there  any single thread in the PoE 2 subforum that collects all the wierd errata like this that should really be corrected in PoE 2?

I'm thinking things like this, the absurdly overcomplicated attack speed calculations, the problem with shield bash lowering DPS, etc?

Not yet But we'll get there.

The thing is that such errata should be well structured, and each listed item have to be accompanied by [title, expected_situation, current_situation, reason_for_change].

Also we need to take balancing into account. For example Wounding Shot's raw DoT damage being affected by enemy DR as mentioned by Kaylon, breaks consistency, but in a way is more balanced than if it wasn't. Otherwise we would probably see a heavy shift towards blunderbuss rangers.

 

- If I understand attack speed correctly, only dex influences everything, everything else affects only recovery speed.

So the description for "whatever of speed" should be changed to "Reduces recovery time by 20% of base value."

Yeap, all tooltips that mention "+x% Attack Speed" actually reduce recovery duration. 

"Reduces recovery duration by x% of base value." is a good start. 

Although the x itself will still be inexact, as it depends on the fact if you dual-wield or not, have durganized shield or not, as well as other recovery-modifying effects (because some do apply multiplicatively, some additively).

 

- I do not think it is a problem that bashing shields reduce DPS. The main purpose of a shield is to give you protection. It seems normal that you do less damage if you attack with shields compared to attacking with weapons only.

The thing is: [1h + bashing_shield] was meant to be somewhere in between [1h + shield] and [1h + 1h] in terms of dps.

The problem is: at some point [1h + bashing_shield] starts to deliver lower dps than [1h + shield] (provided we don't take onHit and onCrit effects of barricade and dragon's maw)

 

- The description "increases damage by 20%" schould be changed to "increases damage by 20% of base value."

Absolutely right.

 

I would also like to mention a series of wizard buffs, that last until hit or critically hit, according to their tooltips.

For example Ironskin reads: "+8 Damage Reduction until hit or critically hit". No one would use a per-rest spell if it would just block 8 damage

Even if used by a very high-def character vs fast-hitting low-acc enemies, in a hope that they will graze or miss only.

 

---

One more bonus question:

When I hit with a dot, the combat log says "Ability x causes x damage over y seconds."

What happens if the enemy DR changes during the dot?

Will the message in the combat log be wrong or will the dot ignore the change in DR? Or does the x refer to the base damage before DR?

The message is almost always wrong for non-raw dots.

It shows you the damage as if the target had 0 DR.

And ofc it has no way to take into account something like Cleansing Flames.

Edited February 28, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

re: balancing -- 

 

I'd say at this stage an accurate description of the problem(s) is probably more important than balancing. Balancing is the game developer's job, and we know they're changing a lot of things around right now. The important thing is to make sure they have accurate information and understand what's poorly implemented & what's confusing players.