Help creating a challenge (more than usual)!

[zeldagaiden]

So, I wana build a strong party, 4-5 melees, 1-2 rangeds, with having NO VANCIAN CASTERS. I have to put this in caps because I never imagined playin this game without a cleric xD. Since I've started replaying Pillars, I've done a few runs with a 4 man squad, and here I stand, looking for ways to challenge myself, even if I have a bad habit of "abandoning" runs at high lvls (I haven't figured exactly why).

So, I think for this I need a paladin, which I didn't wana use for this run, because last 2 runs had paladin on it as MT... Thinking Golden Barbarian is the way to go here for MT.

But what else? Lady of Pain will have her spot of course, probably Fulmineo Prodroni and so will SOMEONE to use a Stormcaller. Who though? A rogue this time maybe? Or keep the ranger but change the pet to antelope or something for a HUGE melee? (5/6 characters in a messy melee? Sign me up!) Chanter might have his place back into the party this time around, and a melee cipher!! I so wana try this out :D. ? I dont mind at all duplicating classes, I believe fighter would serve best as knockdown and innate regen is the best all around stater out there. Maybe double chanter? Or maybe double melee cipher? Also, bear in mind another thing, there won't be enough GREAT items for everyone, basicaly not until endgame. Not enough sanguine or adras out there sadly.

 

So, food for thought, what would your comp be?

[peddroelm]

I only ever play no shield/no main tank fully offensive full melee party:  

 

Fighter/Paladin[MC]/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Rogue 

 

party AI turned off. Have fun.

[Blades of Vanatar]

4 Barbs, 2 Rangers. Or 2 Barbs, 4 Rangers.

 

Barb's can Offtank and multiple ranged Rangers give you a plethora of choices. Make one of the Rangers a Aumaua Gunner with quick switch for bursting single targets. Borresaine the other for stuns so your Barbs can have free reign in melee.

[Boeroer]

Instead of Prondroni use the Witch Doctor monk. He can be played in melee but also ranged with a lot of fun.

 

You can't bind Stormcaller to a rogue, only chanter, cipher and ranger. A chanter with Sure Handed Ila and The Champion (stacks) can achieve tremendous rate of fire and will proc the stunning cone more often than one might think. Before getting the Champion you can use Outlander's Frenzy. But such a chanter is not suited well for The Dragon Thrashed. He will alter between Sure Handed Ila and maybe the first lvl chant that gives Reflex + move speed. He will use summons to help with distractions and support with AoE regeneration and invocations while firing his bow. Sure Handed Ila will also speed up the monk with his flying fists.

 

If you want to try a ranger with max pet damage, use either a melee one with Tidefall (see Riptide & the Pit Fright build) or with Persistence hunting bow. Wounding will constantly trigger Predator's Sense for your wolf (pet with the highest single target dps).

The Riptide build is well suited for offtanking by the way. If you have no priest and don't want to use potions of Spirit Shield to avoid interrupts, you can spend some more points for resolve.

 

Any cipher will do. If you like a bit more micro but supergood focus flow at the start of a battle, use an Island Aumaua with Arms Bearer and Quick switch + four arquebuses. You can fire right away and have a ton of focus at the start of the battle.

 

 

If you want no vancian casters but still a bit of nice casting then try a spellslinging rogue. Basically you optimize him for spell bind items and scrolls: high MIG,INT,DEX and PER. Then try to get your hands on any item with a spell binding: the Sun Touched Mail, Amulet of Summer Solstice (both 3 Sunbeams per rest), the Flames of Fair Rhian (3 fireballs per rest, siphon knowledge from Maerwald after slaying him), Scath Gwannek (Winter Wind), Bittercut (Vile Thorns), Ring of Searing Flames, Swaddling Sheet,the White Crest armor and so on. He can still weild sabres and stuff for melee, being a "full" rogue. I made a theme build with the Sorcerer's Apprentice build (it's focused on Missiles though, but as an inspiration).

The basic trick is that Deathblows work with spells. This makes fireballs and such really powerful (double damage). The rogue's high ACC and hit/crit conversion is also great with spells. Deep Wounds works in an AoE with all spells that do pierce, crush or slash damage. To things like Twin Stones, Overbearing Wave and stuff will cause Deep Wounds in a big AoE.

 

A paladin with Zealous Focus seems to be a good option. If you want a challenge try the Darcozzi Commendatory: he is mainly ranged and uses Zealus Focus, the marking pistol and Coordinated Attacks and Inspiring Exhortation to buff a ally's ACC by +36.

Another very nice and unusual build for paladins is the damaging healbot, a Kind Wayfarer skilled for melee killing. He uses as many on-kill-effects as he can get (Executioner's Hood, Strange Mercy, Inspiring Triumph and so on). Every time he uses FoD or kills somebody he will heal the whole party. Best synergy is with a monn godlike. This guy and the Riptide ranger together with the chanter's regeneration can make sure your party's endurance is always full.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Without goodies like Crown of the faithful, your best defense will be Mindweb.

 

 

If you're worrying about having not enough magic items, go monk. At least some weapons you won't have to worry.

 

You're going to miss durgan steel for everyone. Casters don't care much about Durgan, but this could be a trouble with non casters. Only 2 non casters have weapons equivalent to durganized ones : monk with fists and Stormcaller ranger. Chanters weapon are a bit less critical too. Think about it.

 

You will have enough durgan for everyone's primary set if you bring 2 characters that don't need it. So 2 monks or 1 monk and 1 ranger could be a good idea.

 

By the way antelope is a very good pet, better IMO than bear for offtanking because bear has a crappy attack speed.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Bear is just weak. Antelope is better. But for me it's wolf or stag for the win. Great damage if you know how to use them. Pets are no good at tanking in my opinion - unless you can provide constant healing - then they are god mode tanks because they have no health and defenses + DR don't matter that much. Another reason to think about the Kind Wayfarer paladin + somebody like Riptide who uses Shod-in-Faith plus a chanter with Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits.

 

Durgan Steel shortness is another reason why the Witch Doctor can be great. He uses his fists and as soon as he has two wounds you want to summon The Long Pain (lvl 7 ability). It's so good and you don't need durgan steel. I'm really confused that so few people use this ability with a monk. One of the most powerful things in the game in my opinion.

 

Another nice setup for a melee ranger + pet is Tidefall + high survival in order to get max flanking bonus damage. Since you can always engage and flank together with your pet, you'll get all bonuses all the time: Appr. Sneak Attack, Predator's Sense, Merciless Companion, flanking bonus (up to +60% with camping bonus + item), Stalker's Link, Stalker's Torc. You and your pet combined will do tremendous single target damage.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

So, I wana build a strong party, 4-5 melees, 1-2 rangeds, with having NO VANCIAN CASTERS. 

 

So, food for thought, what would your comp be?

My first run was on potd with:

- frontline: eder (main tank) + kana (offtank, aefyllath + sure handed)

- midline: pallegina (arbalest)

- backline: sagani (stormcaller) + grieving mother (warbow, cc/dps) + warbow cipher (mc, dps)  

 

I didn't know the true power of vancian classes yet. (plus Durance was annoying, while Aloth was mostly wiping the floor. And Hiravias... I've stumbled so late upon him, that my party was already well formed.)

In any case it turned out pretty well. The burst and alpha-strike were amazing.

 

 

But with 4-5 melee requirements, it could be something like:

- frontline: paladin (main tank), barbarian/monk (dw-dps, offtank, low-res, shod-in-faith, swaddling sheet), cipher (cc, botep)

- midline: barbarian (tall grass, scrolls)

- backline: cipher (warbow, 4 survival, 6-8 lore for scrolls), rogue (persistence or blunderbuss with dumped int)

Edited January 15, 2017 by MaxQuest

[zeldagaiden]

Thank you all for your input.

 

Right now I'm thinking of the folowing:

 

Pala Kind Wayfarer for Strange Mercy and Outworn buckler (sorry peddroelm, can't pass it up :D)

Lady of pain (I'll suss out which kind of lady of pain I need during the playthrough)

Witch doctor ( I do love monks )

Riptide & Pit Fright

Quickswitching Cipher that goes melee after he wears down the guns (i'll polish the details out of this one later)

Ranged chanter that supports people.

 

No rogue here (sorry boeroer) because I'm not really a fan of flames... of scrolls I mean. Also I don't really like classes that have their usefulness/main purpose cut to the later lvls (deathblow)

 

Chanter will probably be the scroll guy too and since there's so much melee around, I guess I'm going to have to pump con for each one atleast 2 points just to make them a bit sturdier early on.

 

Races:

 

Lady of pain fire godlike?

Paladin pale elf/coastal aumua/moon godie?

Monk Coastal aumua (i really don't like to be prone xD)

Riptide Hearth orlan

Cipher either boreal dwarf or Island aumua (depending if I do decide to go quickswitch, I haven't thought of talent order and priority yet)

Wood elf Chanter

 

How much does it hurt each disposition on cruel for a MC Kind Wayfarer Pala? Gift of the machine and resentment are a good thing and maybe I do wan't to take advantage of the buffs on someone else..

Lady of pain can also be a scroll woman and even the monk. I like saving the mechanics slot on someone that doesn't need much on the athletics side, so the backline chanter would be it.

 

And yes pedrroelm, party AI turned off for everyone except wolf/stag. Stag or wolf for this comp? Probably wolf but I'm willing to listen

 

Should I replace any of these guys for a barbarian?

[Boeroer]

For the Witch Doctor I like female boreal dwarf because the Maegfolc Skulls doesn't look so ugly on them. It's quite small on a female dwarf's head. And boreal dwarf is one of the best races in my opinion. In combination with the hater talents that I used with the Witch Doctor it's the best option in my opinion. Coastal Aumaua would also be ok.

 

Hearth Orlan for Riptide is a good choice - if you attack as a team you will cnstantly have 10% hit/crit conversion.

 

For switching cipher I would surely go for Island Aumua. One more gunshot is worth a lot.

 

Wood elf ranged chanter is good.

 

Your paladin doesn't need to be the MC in order to gain benefits from Faith and Conviction. It will scale with level if he's not the MC. It's not that much of a difference at later levels. And hirelings don't suffer from the wrong disposition of the MC - so with a hireling pala you would be on the safe side.

Talents like Gift from the Machine and so on may be better suited for the Lady of Pain or the Witch Doctor. The Witch Doctor likes a lot of MIG as does the Lady of Pain. 

[MaxQuest]

That ranged chanter caught my attention.

How do you want to build him? Is the plan to quick-switch arquebuses (and help his party with Aefyllath and scrolls)?

[Boeroer]

If I got it right he wants to use Stormcaller with the chanter. It's a nice combo if you don't want to give it to a ranger or a cipher. Chants would be Sure Handed Ila (also helps the monk) and another chant. Could be something short in order to speed up the phrase count, could be burning lash.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Boeroer

[zeldagaiden]

That ranged chanter caught my attention.

How do you want to build him? Is the plan to quick-switch arquebuses (and help his party with Aefyllath and scrolls)?

Well, no, I think if I go quickswitch it will be on the cipher only tbh. But that can also be considered. Yet, it will be someone with high DEX+INT, good STR+PER and dump RES+CON. Probably will stop STR at 15, as he's going to be on the backline not doing dragon thrashed, the lashing song isnt affected by str either (and is the best imo for this setup) and will value CON more than RES for this one. INT because of song range and spells (which have good yet limited effects, so I want to make the best of them, also, ancient memory) and DEX because if he's going to be the scroll guy, he needs to be casting it quickly. Yet I'm thinking lore from items+background should be fine to hit 4 lore for basic defense and acc scrolls.

So in the end, ill want something like:

- Aspirant's mark !!!! I can't begin to tell you how much I love this talent without having a druid/mage on the team. 1/encounter with a 40+ second duration debuff is too good.

- Both ancient memory talents

- Weapon focus peasant, Stormcaller main, sagani bow/persistence before, having hatchet/large or medium shield when melee happens and I cant shake it off (or stun/prone happening. One can switch for insta goodie defenses on afflictions and not suffer a horrible death)

- Maybe penetrating shot, since a chanter is generaly quite free to take talents.

So, that's 5 talents, i'll be full build at lvl 6 LOL xD

 

Oh, on the run I'm doing, I have a lvl 12 priest with low per (6) and str (12), I actualy took weapon and shield+cautious atack and it made a tremendous difference. I normaly want him on the backside taking low dmg potshots with chance of domination, but when mobs break the line (charge, shadow teleport, etc) she changes to medium shield and gets actualy a very good deflection score for what I built her for. Very good adition, a wooping 95 deflection score with weapon and shield unbuffed (with bracers of deflection too), so maybe chanter will take weapon and shield too for tougher fights that I cannot avoid mobs swarming... Food for thought. Also, I dislike envenomed strike, so I guess marksman would be another good adition?

 

Also, is the stormcaller bow worth it? Like, best ranged weapon ingame for ranger yes, but maybe not for chanter? What else is there to consider? It does save a durgan steel...

 

EDIT: Should I want to wait for Pallegina? Her flames of devotion seems sick with an all out party like this, but I dont know if I'll miss the endurance on kill from kind wayfarer

Edited January 15, 2017 by zeldagaiden

[Elric Galad]

Stormcaller for a chanter is pretty decent.

 

The point is : of all non vancian classes, chanter is the one with the lowest martial potential, so the lowest priority for durgan steel. Stormcaller is still a nasty weapon, especially with the electrical talent. So I think this is a very good pick.

[zeldagaiden]

If I got it right he wants to use Stormcaller with the chanter. It's a nice combo if you don't want to give it to a ranger or a cipher. Chants would be Sure Handed Ila (also helps the monk) and another chant. Could be something short in order to speed up the phrase count, could be burning lash.

 

I actualy wouldn't chant Sure Handed tbf, since, as Elric pointed out ^, Chanter isnt exactly WOWSTATSDAMAGEWOW material, so I would just spam lvl 1/2 chants, namely Blessed Was Wengridh, Quickest of His Tribe and At the Sight of their Comrades, their Hearts Grew Bold and then the casual One Dozen Stood Against the Power of the Saint, and lvl 7 and over (when monk gets long pain) can I get Sure Handed Ila. BUT, I don't quite remember at what lvls chanters get chants, so if I actualy end up getting a lvl 2 phrase at lvl 7, I'm goin for it, even though his damage won't be imense, he'll definately help the witch doctor (after he gets the wounds).

 

EDIT: As I was reading input on the Melee Cipher post, should I run a Darcozzi paladin instead to buff acc of the cipher to hit paralize efficiently?

Edited January 15, 2017 by zeldagaiden

[Elric Galad]

Run a Paladin with coordinating attack + marking weapons. Darcozzi temporary inspiring liberation is icing on the cake, but a +20 switchable infinite duration accuracy bonus is the cake itself. So feel free to pick any order IMHO.

 

Pliambo per casitas is a good weapon for this role, and works nicely with FoD too. Blade of the endless path is great too as a melee versiob AND DON T NEED THAT MUCH ENCHANTING MATERIAL.

[Boeroer]

Until you get the Blade otEP you could use The Spectecular Spetum that you can buy early at the Salty Mast (Vincent Dwellier). It also has marking, uses the same weapon focus as the Blade and also is a two hander.

[zeldagaiden]

Making a paladin that doesn't use a shield makes me shiver xD And by the time I'm at defiance bay, I won't have much gold to spend, so... I will see. Oh, btw, killing that little kid without any reputation down after giving him the dagger (march steel dagger) is really satisfying MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

SO!

Let's start weaponizing these dudes!

Riptide with double Bittercut

Lady of pain with Hours of Rumbledore

Darcozzi with Spetum and later BotEP

Monk doing some fisting

Chanter doin some brainstorming

And.... Cipher with Cladhalìath with stunning+vicious enchantment, 1 handed style.

Or.... Just a ruffian weapon adept and make use of stilletos/sabres and pistols/blunderbusses as island amu with quickswitch and extra weapon slot. Won't I be a bit starved of talents if I go this route?

 

On a final note, which of these chars should be MC? Riptide? Lady of pain?

 

How bout that crazy bucket of mcnuggets?

Edited January 16, 2017 by zeldagaiden

[Boeroer]

When you give double Bittercut to Riptide you are taking away the whole base of the build. The ranger is supposed to do wounding damage for his pet in order to trigger Predator's Sense all the time. That's the reason he must wear Tidefall in my build. An alternative would be Drawn in Spring or Acuan Giamas. Both come late, Tidefall is early.

 

Dual Bittercut would be really good on the cipher. Use an Island Aumaua and don't take any ranged or switching talent. Instead, use the Coil of Resourcefulness from the first map of the White March (Russetwood). It also let's you quick switch. Then use two pistols or blunderbusses to fire two quick shots for good focus and then switch to dual sabres. You won't lose any talent points.

 

Lady should be MC. She profits the most from the story talents.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Shame or Glory is a marking weapon that works with shield ^^

[Boeroer]

Cladhaliath can be crafted with marking as well (if you don't want to choose the Crucible Knight's questline).

Edited January 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[zeldagaiden]

When you give double Bittercut to Riptide you are taking away the whole base of the build. The ranger is supposed to do wounding damage for his pet in order to trigger Predator's Sense all the time. That's the reason he must wear Tidefall in my build. An alternative would be Drawn in Spring or Acuan Giamas. Both come late, Tidefall is early.

 

Erm... Some time has passed since I read the build, was thinking bittercuts only cuz infestation of maggots would do the same as Tidefall passive, but being passive is always best

That also means that riptide will be the recipient of Tall grass due to weapon acc talent.

 

I am now noticing that the weaponizing is really satisfactory, I can get Superb enchantments on everything (Bittercut and Tidefall), in case paladin goes wepnshield.

 

How does marking work with Pliambo per casitas? Or in general actualy? Just shoot and forget pliambo for perma marking if it hits the target? As my understanding goes its only a click on any target for marking to work, but one target at once...

[MaxQuest]

How does marking work with Pliambo per casitas? Or in general actualy? Just shoot and forget pliambo for perma marking if it hits the target? As my understanding goes its only a click on any target for marking to work, but one target at once...

I will quote one of my recent responses on similar question: "the target to receive +10 accuracy, is decided at the moment when casitas_character receives an 'attack order' on an enemy. The target (for the buff) is the closest party-member to casitas_character at that moment. If the casitas_character receives another type of order like: stop, move or cast some spell not on that target, the 10 bonus accuracy are lost."

 

- Aspirant's mark !!!! I can't begin to tell you how much I love this talent without having a druid/mage on the team. 1/encounter with a 40+ second duration debuff is too good.

Completely agreed)

Also Enigma's Charm might useful as well.

 

Should I want to wait for Pallegina? Her flames of devotion seems sick with an all out party like this, but I dont know if I'll miss the endurance on kill from kind wayfarer

My current paladin (1h + outworn buckler; maxed mig, avg per/dex) has killed 81 enemies out of 1310. 

Imho, unless you dual-wield or use hard-hitting reloading weapons, it's not worth taking Strange Mercy.

[zeldagaiden]

So the marking will stay on that one target as long as I dont.... move or change target? That if I switch weapon after using pliambo. Interesting.

Thinking of taking paladin Ploi'ish like build, charms really do a number on enemy squads, specialy on low resolve bulky kith. Also, the pala will be basicaly the only emergency heal/liberation/rez source (per encounter) so I think I'll be using him anyway for supporting/marking/buffing (scroll hogger). If I understood correctly, if I mark someone with any marking weapon (target someone atack) and start casting a scroll, the mark stays independently if I even atacked the target right? (for melee weapons I'd think I need to be at melee range of the target, but other than that it'll work like this)

EDIT: Does marking stack? Figuring not, but might as well ask :D

Edited January 16, 2017 by zeldagaiden

[MaxQuest]

So the marking will stay on that one target as long as I dont.... move or change target? That if I switch weapon after using pliambo. Interesting.

You get marking bonus when you issue an attack order. And lose it once your character does anything else except continuing to attack the same target.

 

charms really do a number on enemy squads, specialy on low resolve bulky kith.

They are also really great against melee ogres.

It's great vs druid ogres too (as they won't cast talon's reach nor their aoe dots on you), but it will be harder to land against druids, without weakening pre-debuff.

 

Does marking stack? Figuring not, but might as well ask :D

Only if you are dual-wielding marking weapons. For more info check this post) Edited January 16, 2017 by MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

They are also really great against melee ogres.

It's great vs druid ogres too (as they won't cast talon's reach nor their aoe dots on you), but it will be harder to land against druids, without weakening pre-debuff. 

 

If you're a Boreal Dwarf it's not hard to land on Ogre Druids thanks to the +15 accuracy versus Wilder (I was reliably landing Whispers with Boreal Dwarf Cipher at level 4 against the Ogres in the Endless Paths); you'll also be pretty likely to crit charm regular ogres too.

 

I imagine that, given the way Boeroer build Ploi (high accuracy for charming), the same should be true with him i.e. it should be fairly easy to charm Ogre Druids.