Modding thread

[nightcleaver]

OK, so I saw this idea and felt the need to vent. This isn't really to make ANOTHER thread about how good an idea modding tools are, but quite the opposite - the I'm sure it could end up like that.

 

I hate the idea of developers spending time to make the game more moddable. It works well for NWN, and I even enjoy some of the mods that come out of it, but I am of the extreme minority (I guess) that doesn't want EVERYTHING to go this direction, and here's why.

 

First of all, it takes up DEV time - which wouldn't be a problem except that I don't like the idea. Second, I've only played a VERY few mods in NWN that were any good at all, or that were even properly polished. The common community, I think, can't really be trusted with stuff like that. Right now, there are probably millions of user made mods, and of them I've played, oh, maybe a total of 20, and actually completed and ENJOYED a total of three. No, those aren't precise statistics, but they're pretty class, and you get the picture. Can you see the problem here? I can. The ease of mod making has made it disgustingly easy for any twelve year old with an over-indulging hero complex to slop together a mod with absolutely no polish, effort, enthusiasm or imagination. I even feel about like that with some (well, I guess most) of the top rated mods out there at NWVAULT. I feel sorry for myself for ever giving user made mods the chance.

 

Anyway, though I'd prefer only people who agreed with me posted in this thread hereafter, feel free to express opinions to the contrary. Realize that I respect other people's opinions just fine already, though, and if LA decided to comission user tools, I wouldn't scream and cry about it. I wouldn't look at user made mods, though, unless I didn't see a single typo in the description and it had a rating of 8 (allowing for the error inherent in the rating system) at least. You get the picture.

 

So please, post a message and have a party. Everyone's invited! whoo!

[Gorth]

Agreed B)

 

NWN was a wasted of time and money. Tried 1 (one) user made module from the top ten list. It couldn't really be any worse than the OC. It wasn't. Wasn't an improvement either.

 

There are some very useful BG2 mods out there. But I only use the Baldurdash bugfixes, as in those that fixes actual bugs in the game (wrong weapon effects, wrong stats compared to description, stuff like that).

 

No need to spend valueable developer resources on making tools and compilers userfriendly.

 

However, for games like Kotor and Kotor2, it could have been nice with a documented file and model format. That way, people who really wanted, could write the tools for modding. Just look at the sheer volume of Infinity tools out there, once the fileformats got reverse engineered.

 

Odds are though, that games like Kotor2 will not be mod friendly.

 

I don't really care that much either, if just the game is relatively bug free

[Darque]

You just wasted your thread :D

 

Lucas arts isn't going to let KotOR2 be modable (I'm guessing this as it was posted on the official KotOR boards that that was the reason KotOR 1 didn't come with any tools)

[Weiser_Cain]

I really don't like you people...

[Darque]

[nightcleaver]

No, I know it won't be moddable, but I saw the idea when I was hunting through old threads and felt like bringing it up. I think the real problem thus far is that mods are made by individuals instead of teams, and that really doesn't work out well. There is ZERO QA involved in such projects, and people aren't too picky about game expansions that are free. I guess the popularity of many user made modules go to show that for the majority, quality and ESPECIALLY polish doesn't really matter. As well, without multiple writers or at least multiple perspectives taken of the story, it's going to be a very limited, bland game world - unless the person spends endless hours making it as Tolkien did.

 

Tolkien, though, was an english/historyish major from (that one university that starts with an O? I think.), so you can hardly expect someone like him to be contrived. He did and re did, probably hundreds of times, every inch of his book, which is hardly something I'd expect the common mod maker to even attempt.

[Craftsman]

Acutally it will be as moddable as the first. Which is moddable to some extend so...

[lordcecil]

No, I know it won't be moddable, but I saw the idea when I was hunting through old threads and felt like bringing it up. I think the real problem thus far is that mods are made by individuals instead of teams, and that really doesn't work out well. There is ZERO QA involved in such projects, and people aren't too picky about game expansions that are free. I guess the popularity of many user made modules go to show that for the majority, quality and ESPECIALLY polish doesn't really matter. As well, without multiple writers or at least multiple perspectives taken of the story, it's going to be a very limited, bland game world - unless the person spends endless hours making it as Tolkien did.

 

Tolkien, though, was an english/historyish major from (that one university that starts with an O? I think.), so you can hardly expect someone like him to be contrived. He did and re did, probably hundreds of times, every inch of his book, which is hardly something I'd expect the common mod maker to even attempt.

Yeah there have never been any good mods released for anything.... There are many EXCELLENT mods for NWN and Morrowind. If you don't like them, thats fine. Devs have tools to make games, release those tools - no big deal. People on the PC are fully aware of what they are downloading and if there is some grade A stuff out there it might even get released over xbox live. Lots of games have mod packs released a couple of months after the game is out, and as long as the ground work is there its no big deal.

 

Mod tools = good, end of story, Cecil hath spoken.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I am completely indifferent to this topic.

 

Then why did I respond?

 

I don't know. Maybe 'cause I wanna be level 2 or something.

[nightcleaver]

Maybe, somewhat like gorth semi-suggested, there should be tools in moderation, so that the problem of good modules getting hidden in the crap and crap rising to the surface by a few votes, and thus getting more attention, wouldn't happen so much.

 

Actually, I'd say that there haven't been any EXCELLENT mods, but a few good ones. As an EXTREME conniseur of character interaction, being very observant of such similar interactions in real life, I find it incredibly frustrating when mod makers write basically the same style (and to a certain degree substance) of dialogue for every character, with only slight differences. There have been a number of "cute" or "charming" mods out there, but what's surprsing is that these are college age and up people a lot of times. I know not to criticize individual mods like that anymore, but suffice to say there've been mods I played with lots of content candy and eye candy that weren't terribly interesting to me to play through.

 

A lot of the problem is how crappy the NWN battle system is, though. And how generic it seems. I REALLY hate how generic it is, and it's all so the joe schmoe who doesn't know or really care what they're doing can piddle out a few mods. The tile system sucks.

[nightcleaver]

I am completely indifferent to this topic.

 

Then why did I respond?

 

I don't know. Maybe 'cause I wanna be level 2 or something.

I wonder if you just have a compulsion to respond to every thread on the forum at least once, now.

 

MAkes sense.

[lordcecil]

Non-crappy easy to do mods: new light saber colors, extra items, new armor, enhanced graphics, more monsters, different monsters, new force powers, balanced force powers (should, heaven forbid, they not be perfect).

 

Mods don't have to be 10 hour long epic conquests bud. A group could get together and basically create a dungeon romp with all new enemies and items and I would be perfectly happen. It wouldn't even require dialogue !!

 

Its safe to say that mod tools > no mod tools

 

Cecil hath spoken, conclusion reached, THREAD FINISHED

[Darque]

No, I know it won't be moddable, but I saw the idea when I was hunting through old threads and felt like bringing it up. I think the real problem thus far is that mods are made by individuals instead of teams, and that really doesn't work out well. There is ZERO QA involved in such projects, and people aren't too picky about game expansions that are free. I guess the popularity of many user made modules go to show that for the majority, quality and ESPECIALLY polish doesn't really matter.

That is a good point.

[nightcleaver]

Ahh. But I don't think that's a good mod. I think that's a pretty crappy mod, actually.

 

as for easy, on any of those things? I seriously doubt reverse engineering is easy, and I don't particulary think they're crappy - at least they aren't pretentious about being more than they are. But those aren't mods in the sense I was thinking of, those are minor addon's. I guess you really do like the idea of completely generic levels made over and over again, with no pretensions of liking them for any depth or purpose other than to hack n' slash, but it requires more for me personally to be interested. If that's all you want, why do you want to move it to the odyessey engine as well?

 

Regardless, I hope the sort of mod you described above isn't your idea of truly "excellent".

 

As well, look at what I said before - I specified WHAT I didn't like about the modding tools. The generic qualities of the tilesets, the gimpy combat system... Fundamentally, this doesn't help mod makers do more work, but rahter does half of a mod maker's work for them. You get a lot of modules that are all almost exactly the same out of it. People make their own tilesets, but those certainly aren't without flaw. They're neat, sure, but not on the scale of polish that Bioware puts in it's other games. How many tilesets shipped with the game originally? Lame.

 

 

EDIT: The multiplayer, while variable, I've had quite a bit of fun with. The DM Client and such was nice and necessary to put life into any of the generic qualities of NWN. Multiplayer isn't an issue in KOTOR; if it were, maybe I'd feel a little bit less estranged to the idea.

[T7nowhere]

I'll never understand why people make topics like this, especially when it has been stated a couple of times by the Devs that there are no plans for any modding tools.

 

I do agree that time should not be taken from the devs to make modding tools, and thins case it isn't even up to Obisdian sinse they don't own the rights to the game game engine or the tools that thier useing. Even if Tools were made for the users I doubt it would affect game sales at all, and as we all saw from KotOR that sale were huge despite it being rushed and haveing bugs(all games are shipped with bugs anyway. no way to plan for every eventuallity).

 

The problem with how Modding KotOR has been handled officially was quite dissapointing to many people though. It is one thing for a developer to decide not to make modding tools, but to instead completely ban the discussion of modding just doesn't make sense. Well

 

I guess it sort of does sinse LA licensed the technology From Bioware so that Obsidian could make KotOR 2 and they didn't want any of the tech to leak out to other devolpers(I guess) Thats why I assume LA told Bioware Not to discuss modding KotOR.

 

Despite the Road blocks there were a few very clever people that got the ball rolling so that KotOR could be moddable and the knowledge has grown from there. There are however still some very large obstacles in the way and if Some documentation was provided or even If we had a chance to talk with the developers to get a few hints on how to build user tools OR even if a couple minor utilities(model converter) were given would help us greatly.

 

Anyway I could on and on, but I think I'll stop. :|

[Weiser_Cain]

I made all my mods by myself. Sorry about ruining the game for you with my unpolished, juvenile mods...

[Darque]

I made all my mods by myself. Sorry about ruining the game for you with my unpolished, juvenile mods...

I think you're being a wee bit to oversensitive about this *like I'm one to talk*

 

The game is still modable, and KotOR2 will likely be just as modable, so in the end it doesn't matter. Also there's the fact that lucasarts just isn't going to ok it, so the argument is pointless.

 

As a side note: I REALLY like your HK-47 reskin

[lordcecil]

Mod tools let my previously stated 'easy mods' be, well, quite simply, absolute cake to make. (I rhymed, teehee !) Are those mods? Yes. Can they be done without mod tools? Not without great difficulty. With dev given tools can they be done easily? Absolutely.

 

Those are modifications to the game that further enhance my gameplay. Your basic argument against mod tools seems to be that mods aren't up to the same caliber as the original game? No s*** sherlock, they aren't getting paid salary to do such things.

 

We can all agree mod tools > no mod tools, even if the only thing useful to come out of it is pretty new lightsaber colors correct? Good, now lock this thread and lets be done with it.

 

You don't seem to understand something - I'm right, every post I ever make on this post will be right. Its not an opinion thing, its a me being right and anyone who disagrees being wrong thing. Any questions?

[Gorth]

I'm right, every post I ever make on this post will be right.

That didn't make a lot of sense

 

Any questions?

Yes, about mod tools

1. Can they make coffee?
   
2. Do they come in light blue?
   

This thread is only slightly better than the "Can we have mod tools" threads. That doesn't say a lot

 

Those with the necessary skills will eventually get the data formats right and develop tools for it. Might take a while though.

[Darque]

And Gorth wins...

[Shadowstrider]

Stuff

Try not to pick apart the boys ego... lest you release id.

[Weiser_Cain]

Those with the necessary skills will eventually get the data formats right and develop tools for it. Might take a while though.

First off we may never figure out the model format in time for anything we make to be available durring the life of the game!

I can understand not wanting a bunch of broken mods, don't download them(or an even better idea, research the mod)! I'm not a programer, the idea that I'd have to reverse engineer a file format and create a exporter just to share my ideas, just so you don't download a few bad mods (which you may do anyway)is ridiculous!

You don't want any mods? Go waste some money on an xbox! Stop trying to make modding harder for the rest of us!

[Darque]

I don't think you get it Weiser_Cain.... <_<

[Akari]

Those with the necessary skills will eventually get the data formats right and develop tools for it. Might take a while though.

First off we may never figure out the model format in time for anything we make to be available durring the life of the game!

I can understand not wanting a bunch of broken mods, don't download them(or an even better idea, research the mod)! I'm not a programer, the idea that I'd have to reverse engineer a file format and create a exporter just to share my ideas, just so you don't download a few bad mods (which you may do anyway)is ridiculous!

You don't want any mods? Go waste some money on an xbox! Stop trying to make modding harder for the rest of us!

I believe we have a different model format than KotOR1 had, so I can't help you with that.

 

If we're allowed to release the model file format after KotOR2 is out, I'll be happy to help if I can. It's way too early for me to ask about it now though.

 

-Akari

[Gorth]

I don't think he got it either...

 

The point was not, to make it intentionally harder to create mods, but not to divert resources from the game into the tools. Let those with spare time on their hands do that. Some games benefit tremendously from mod tools, like multiplayer and coop games. Single player games have very little apart from the odd tweak to equipment and characters to offer (and sometimes the odd bugfix).

 

I've tried plenty of mods for BG2, but apart from the 45+ bugfixes that volunteers created, the only true mod that stayed was "Dungeon Begone"

 

I did a few funny tweaks to Kotor1, mostly adding a big yellow smiley to Bastilas bikini, color changes and suff, but that was only for the fun factor of it. I can't really imagine anything useful for Kotor1, being a very "complete" game in it's own right.

 

If I wanted full fledged mods with levels, maps, quests etc. I would figure out how to use NWN's toolkit, since I already spent my money on that one. I'm pretty sure somebody out there could whip up a lightsaber with sound effects and everything