Ben No.3 Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 An examination of Utopia in a nutshell What is society? - A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness What are the methods of society in order to reach its goal? It is a fatal flaw to give any of society's methods importance over the other! They are all equally needed. In order for these methods to work it is essential that everyone's freedom is assured and protected. No single ideology is to be followed. The government and politics - the government is created of people and institutions that society trusts can bring forward the strive to happiness more quickly - In order to ensure this, society gives the government certain power over the people - However, it is the government who owns society obedience, and not the other way around - People should vote for parties and their ideologies rather than for persons. According to the outcome of the vote, seats in parliament are given to the parties. The government then elects a president (for which a 70% agreement is needed). This is to ensure that the people vote for the ideology that they want their society to follow, while at the same time only the most qualified come into a position of power Philosophy, religion and other teachings - The point of teachings is to introduce society to and teach it about different approaches to a happy life - The point of society however is not to follow a certain teaching but rather to judge and evaluate them all, choose the best of each and let it be a part of itself (society) - Teachings can not be only part of intellectual life, but should be common topics amongst everyone. Good teachers should become celebrities. Art - There are two types of art: The lower and the higher arts. They're names do not state their value but their purpose for society - The lower arts are those who's purpose it is to entertain us. Their role in society is to ensure everyday happiness - The higher arts are those who reflect upon society. Their purpose is to show us where society is at, what its flaws and its benefits are The economy - the purpose of the economy is to ensure everyone's materialistic well being - It is the economy's responsibility to bring forward society, and not the other way around Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 "A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness" homo homini lupus The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Well, in a hutshell An examination of Utopia in a nutshell What is society? - A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness NOPE What are the methods of society in order to reach its goal? It is a fatal flaw to give any of society's methods importance over the other! They are all equally needed. NOPE In order for these methods to work it is essential that everyone's freedom is assured and protected. NOPE No single ideology is to be followed. NOPE The government and politics - the government is created of people and institutions that society trusts can bring forward the strive to happiness more quickly NOPE - In order to ensure this, society gives the government certain power over the people NOPE - However, it is the government who owns society obedience, and not the other way around NOPE - People should vote for parties and their ideologies rather than for persons. According to the outcome of the vote, seats in parliament are given to the parties. The government then elects a president (for which a 70% agreement is needed). This is to ensure that the people vote for the ideology that they want their society to follow, while at the same time only the most qualified come into a position of power NOPE Philosophy, religion and other teachings - The point of teachings is to introduce society to and teach it about different approaches to a happy life NOPE - The point of society however is not to follow a certain teaching but rather to judge and evaluate them all, choose the best of each and let it be a part of itself (society) NOPE - Teachings can not be only part of intellectual life, but should be common topics amongst everyone. Good teachers should become celebrities. NOPE Art - There are two types of art: The lower and the higher arts. They're names do not state their value but their purpose for society NOPE - The lower arts are those who's purpose it is to entertain us. Their role in society is to ensure everyday happiness NOPE - The higher arts are those who reflect upon society. Their purpose is to show us where society is at, what its flaws and its benefits are NOPE The economy - the purpose of the economy is to ensure everyone's materialistic well being NOPE - It is the economy's responsibility to bring forward society, and not the other way around NOPE Your opinion is as eloquently expressed and well-thought-out as always. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsy Emperor Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Are you Bruce's alt Ben И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,И његова сва изгибе војска, Седамдесет и седам иљада;Све је свето и честито билоИ миломе Богу приступачно. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chippy Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Heh - Sharp_One drawing the red line through it all - I think theres a law aginast that in teaching now, something about intimidation. Yeah, I agree with most of this (funny because we're so opposed to society as defined by the EU), but would also add that you should consider how the government and society view criminals, not just in how they are dealt with, but how government is moving towards profiling and risk assessing their citizens before they have even commited a crime. And tactics that are being used to intimidate and mould behaviour to preemptively (in my oppinion) prevent conflict around issues that (show) where the government has failed its citizens. I cant elaborate much because I'd probably get arrested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 You silly nilly. Trump won the election, utopia is here already. 2 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Are you Bruce's alt Ben Bruce is to moderate for me Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Sharp one... How lovely to have a discussion partner. Please do elaborate on your opinions, I'm interested Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 But you guys see, as chippy said: if we're honest, we agree on many things. So let's not hate on each other for disagreeing over certain nuances of a system we all support to quite an extend. Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Utopia is a stupid concept, and if you want one you are misguided. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilloutman Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 my only reply to utopia nonsense: I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it. Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Sharp one... How lovely to have a discussion partner. Please do elaborate on your opinions, I'm interestedAs all leftists you hamfist a wrong definition of something and try to make an argument based on that definition. And this kind of argument doesn't fly anymore, so I disregard all your false hamfisted definitions. Then show me why I'm wrong. If anything, the past elections have shown us we need the dialogue, the discussion and the debate. I have a standpoint and I'm willing to defend it, but I will know when I'm beaten. But up until now you offer nothing useful. You think I'm wrong? Good, then tell me why or I'll never be right. More so, if you fail to offer any argument of why I'm wrong, I see no reason to believe I am. Edited December 22, 2016 by Ben No.3 Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it. As individuals we strive to be different, often conflicting things. Edited December 22, 2016 by Namutree "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it. As individuals we strive to be different, often conflicting things. Which is exactly why it is so important to have a dialogue. A society that only follows a single ideology always fails, this much history has shown us. We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society. Conflicting views are the solution not the problem. Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society. I can't think of a classical liberal society that has ever become a failed state. Maybe the issue isn't that strict adherence to ideology tanked certain societies, but rather said societies had adopted a poor ideology. At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development. Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society. I can't think of a classical liberal society that has ever become a failed state. Maybe the issue isn't that strict adherence to ideology tanked certain societies, but rather said societies had adopted a poor ideology. Weimar Germany Also, Our society as it is now has barely yet existed. It is far too early to judge wether it will be able to sustain itself. And besides... We are no purley democratic/capitalist countries either. Pure democracy is the rule of the majority, yet we have laws that protect minorities and systems like the electoral college in the US and parliamentarian democracy in Germany and other countries. Pure capitalism is defied in many countries by public services like public healthcare, public transport, public education, minimum wage and so on. For the countries we live in work great, but they are not following a purley capitalist/democratic ideology. Besides, we can't just look at the winners and then assume that our society works. Capitalism still has the same problems it did in the industrial revolution, only it moved to an international scale. At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development. Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century. That man knew what the biggest problem with horse carriages was: The horse. So, most likely his vision was that of a carriage without horses, which is essentially where we came from. This is actually a perfect example of why utopian thinking helps: the idea of the perfect horse carriage (one without a horse) has driven engineers to come up with that perfect carriage, and they did so because they had a vision. Edited December 22, 2016 by Ben No.3 Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development. Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century. That man knew what the biggest problem with horse carriages was: The horse. So, most likely his vision was that of a carriage without horses, which is essentially where we came from. This is actually a perfect example of why utopian thinking helps: the idea of the perfect horse carriage (one without a horse) has driven engineers to come up with that perfect carriage, and they did so because they had a vision. It seems you missed the point, and a horse carriage without a horse isn't a horse carriage. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Well, then please explain to me the point more clearly. And yes, obviously a horse carriage without a horse isn't a horse carriage, but maybe it's you who didn't get my point? Also, I'm happy to report that a western democratic liberatarian capitalist country that failed came to my mind: Weimar Germany (as said in the edit ) Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 It's seems many agree with me that capitalism isn't the best solution http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-capitalism-failing Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barothmuk Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 A discussion between an "anti-capitalist" who supports capitalism and a guy who thinks the west doesn't have "true capitalism". Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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