Utopia, in a nutshell (just wanted to hear some opinions on my opinion)

[Ben No.3]

An examination of Utopia in a nutshell

 

 

What is society?

 

- A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness

 

What are the methods of society in order to reach its goal?

 

It is a fatal flaw to give any of society's methods importance over the other! They are all equally needed.

 

In order for these methods to work it is essential that everyone's freedom is assured and protected.

 

No single ideology is to be followed.

 

The government and politics

 

- the government is created of people and institutions that society trusts can bring forward the strive to happiness more quickly

- In order to ensure this, society gives the government certain power over the people

- However, it is the government who owns society obedience, and not the other way around

- People should vote for parties and their ideologies rather than for persons. According to the outcome of the vote, seats in parliament are given to the parties. The government then elects a president (for which a 70% agreement is needed). This is to ensure that the people vote for the ideology that they want their society to follow, while at the same time only the most qualified come into a position of power

 

 

Philosophy, religion and other teachings

 

- The point of teachings is to introduce society to and teach it about different approaches to a happy life

- The point of society however is not to follow a certain teaching but rather to judge and evaluate them all, choose the best of each and let it be a part of itself (society)

- Teachings can not be only part of intellectual life, but should be common topics amongst everyone. Good teachers should become celebrities.

 

Art

 

- There are two types of art: The lower and the higher arts. They're names do not state their value but their purpose for society

- The lower arts are those who's purpose it is to entertain us. Their role in society is to ensure everyday happiness

- The higher arts are those who reflect upon society. Their purpose is to show us where society is at, what its flaws and its benefits are

 

The economy

 

- the purpose of the economy is to ensure everyone's materialistic well being

- It is the economy's responsibility to bring forward society, and not the other way around

[HoonDing]

"A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness"

 

homo homini lupus

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Well, in a hutshell

 

An examination of Utopia in a nutshell 

 

 

What is society?

 

- A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness NOPE

 

What are the methods of society in order to reach its goal?

 

It is a fatal flaw to give any of society's methods importance over the other! They are all equally needed. NOPE

 

In order for these methods to work it is essential that everyone's freedom is assured and protected. NOPE

 

No single ideology is to be followed. NOPE

 

The government and politics

 

- the government is created of people and institutions that society trusts can bring forward the strive to happiness more quickly NOPE

- In order to ensure this, society gives the government certain power over the people NOPE

- However, it is the government who owns society obedience, and not the other way around NOPE

- People should vote for parties and their ideologies rather than for persons. According to the outcome of the vote, seats in parliament are given to the parties. The government then elects a president (for which a 70% agreement is needed). This is to ensure that the people vote for the ideology that they want their society to follow, while at the same time only the most qualified come into a position of power NOPE

 

 

Philosophy, religion and other teachings

 

- The point of teachings is to introduce society to and teach it about different approaches to a happy life NOPE

- The point of society however is not to follow a certain teaching but rather to judge and evaluate them all, choose the best of each and let it be a part of itself (society) NOPE

- Teachings can not be only part of intellectual life, but should be common topics amongst everyone. Good teachers should become celebrities. NOPE

 

Art

 

- There are two types of art: The lower and the higher arts. They're names do not state their value but their purpose for society NOPE

- The lower arts are those who's purpose it is to entertain us. Their role in society is to ensure everyday happiness NOPE

- The higher arts are those who reflect upon society. Their purpose is to show us where society is at, what its flaws and its benefits are NOPE

 

The economy

 

- the purpose of the economy is to ensure everyone's materialistic well being NOPE

- It is the economy's responsibility to bring forward society, and not the other way around NOPE

 

 

Your opinion is as eloquently expressed and well-thought-out as always.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Are you Bruce's alt Ben

[Chippy]

Heh - Sharp_One drawing the red line through it all - I think theres a law aginast that in teaching now, something about intimidation.

 

Yeah, I agree with most of this (funny because we're so opposed to society as defined by the EU), but would also add that you should consider how the government and society view criminals, not just in how they are dealt with, but how government is moving towards profiling and risk assessing their citizens before they have even commited a crime.  And tactics that are being used to intimidate and mould behaviour to preemptively (in my oppinion) prevent conflict around issues that (show) where the government has failed its citizens.

 

I cant elaborate much because I'd probably get arrested.

[Meshugger]

You silly nilly. Trump won the election, utopia is here already.

[Ben No.3]

Are you Bruce's alt Ben

Bruce is to moderate for me

[Ben No.3]

Sharp one... How lovely to have a discussion partner. Please do elaborate on your opinions, I'm interested

[Ben No.3]

But you guys see, as chippy said: if we're honest, we agree on many things. So let's not hate on each other for disagreeing over certain nuances of a system we all support to quite an extend.

[Namutree]

Utopia is a stupid concept, and if you want one you are misguided.

[Chilloutman]

my only reply to utopia nonsense:

 

[Ben No.3]

Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it.

[Ben No.3]

 

Sharp one... How lovely to have a discussion partner. Please do elaborate on your opinions, I'm interested

As all leftists you hamfist a wrong definition of something and try to make an argument based on that definition.

And this kind of argument doesn't fly anymore, so I disregard all your false hamfisted definitions.

Then show me why I'm wrong. If anything, the past elections have shown us we need the dialogue, the discussion and the debate. I have a standpoint and I'm willing to defend it, but I will know when I'm beaten. But up until now you offer nothing useful. You think I'm wrong? Good, then tell me why or I'll never be right. More so, if you fail to offer any argument of why I'm wrong, I see no reason to believe I am. Edited December 22, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Namutree]

Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it.

As individuals we strive to be different, often conflicting things.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Namutree

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it.

As individuals we strive to be different, often conflicting things.

Which is exactly why it is so important to have a dialogue. A society that only follows a single ideology always fails, this much history has shown us. We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society. Conflicting views are the solution not the problem.

[Namutree]

 

We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society.

 

I can't think of a classical liberal society that has ever become a failed state. Maybe the issue isn't that strict adherence to ideology tanked certain societies, but rather said societies had adopted a poor ideology. 

 

At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development. 

 

Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century. 

[Ben No.3]

 

 

We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society.

 

I can't think of a classical liberal society that has ever become a failed state. Maybe the issue isn't that strict adherence to ideology tanked certain societies, but rather said societies had adopted a poor ideology.

Weimar Germany

 

Also, Our society as it is now has barely yet existed. It is far too early to judge wether it will be able to sustain itself. And besides... We are no purley democratic/capitalist countries either. Pure democracy is the rule of the majority, yet we have laws that protect minorities and systems like the electoral college in the US and parliamentarian democracy in Germany and other countries. Pure capitalism is defied in many countries by public services like public healthcare, public transport, public education, minimum wage and so on. For the countries we live in work great, but they are not following a purley capitalist/democratic ideology.

 

Besides, we can't just look at the winners and then assume that our society works. Capitalism still has the same problems it did in the industrial revolution, only it moved to an international scale.

 

At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development.

 

Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century.

That man knew what the biggest problem with horse carriages was: The horse. So, most likely his vision was that of a carriage without horses, which is essentially where we came from.

 

This is actually a perfect example of why utopian thinking helps: the idea of the perfect horse carriage (one without a horse) has driven engineers to come up with that perfect carriage, and they did so because they had a vision.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Namutree]

 

At any rate; even ideologies have their limits. "Utopia" as I understand it is meant to be a perfect society, but "society" to me is just a means to an end that will become obsolete. My preferred end-game isn't a society at all. If society is still a thing; then people still have a long way to go in terms of development.

 

Being concerned about a "Perfect Society" in the future, is like a man in the 19th century worrying about the creation "perfect" horse carriage in the 21st century.

That man knew what the biggest problem with horse carriages was: The horse. So, most likely his vision was that of a carriage without horses, which is essentially where we came from.

 

This is actually a perfect example of why utopian thinking helps: the idea of the perfect horse carriage (one without a horse) has driven engineers to come up with that perfect carriage, and they did so because they had a vision.

 

It seems you missed the point, and a horse carriage without a horse isn't a horse carriage. 

[Ben No.3]

Well, then please explain to me the point more clearly.

 

And yes, obviously a horse carriage without a horse isn't a horse carriage, but maybe it's you who didn't get my point?

 

Also, I'm happy to report that a western democratic liberatarian capitalist country that failed came to my mind: Weimar Germany (as said in the edit )

[Ben No.3]

It's seems many agree with me that capitalism isn't the best solution

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-capitalism-failing

[Barothmuk]

A discussion between an "anti-capitalist" who supports capitalism and a guy who thinks the west doesn't have "true capitalism".

 

Great.