Debuffs for cypher, wizard, priest and Druid which order?

[prototype00]

So I know debuffing is as important as buffing, but I am admittedly not as knowledgeable in which ones to focus on and what order to cast them in (curse the redundant spell lists!)

 

Anyone would like to share their fav. Order for debuffs for tough fights of their fav class?

Edited October 20, 2016 by prototype00

[limaxophobiacq]

Spells that inflict penalties but also prevent enemies from acting tend to be the best ones, since not taking actions is the second most detrimental debuff after being dead. Really for some of the classes like Druid (Relentless Storm) or Priest (Shining Beacon) these spells do good damage too so the answer to which debuffs are good is going to be pretty much the same as to 'which offensive spells are good'. 

 

For wizard: Slicken, Chill Fog, Combusting Wounds, Web, Ninagauths Shadowflame, Call to Slumber, Gaze of Adragan, Crushing Doom, Chaotic Orb, Freezing Rake, Wall of Many Colours

 

Druid: Tanglefoot, Sunbeam, Hold Beasts, Calling the Worlds Maw, Embrace of the Earth Talon, Relentless Storm, Venombloom

 

Priest: Halt (on occasion), Divine Mark, Repulsing Seal, Pillar of Faith, Shining Beacon. The talent Painfull Interdiction is also a good debuff, and the fact that that Devotions for the Faithful gets a strong debuff effect (-30% damage, -20 fortitude, -20 accuracy) in addition to the amazing buff is kind of ridiculous.

 

Ciphers: Eye Strike, Mind Wave, Borrowed Insticts (though its not really good primarily for the debuff effect), Amblified Wave. Not really a class thats that much about debuffs but more about mind control and damage (and then suddenly at level 15 all about making the entire party unkillable with Defensive Mindweb).

 

As for the order.

 

Casting Slicken with a wizard followed by Sunbeam from Druid is obviously good since they both reduce & attack Reflex defense so they'll help eachother a lot. These two first level spells remain effective way into the game when combined.

 

Tanglefoot is neat before anything that attacks Reflex, but for druids at level 9+ Relentless Storm into Plague of Insects opens every hard encounter forever, except against big dragons that aren't immune to paralyze. Then Venombloom if the enemy is not immune to poison.

 

Priest should cast buffs before debuffs, though Devotions for the Faithful is of course both.

 

Again in general abilities that ONLY debuff aren't that great when you could be debuffing and stopping enemies from taking actions and/or doing damage all at the same time.

Edited October 20, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[AeonsLegend]

I usually start with Empowered Painful Interdiction because this weakens and dazes the enemy and lowers their resistances to other debuffs allowing them ensured hits and crit more often. That followed by Amplified wave is usually enough to be able to destroy any enemy party. These are also fast cast spells with enormous per encounter Foe AoE so you're bound to hit everyone with it and can use it reliably every fight. I've never had the need to use any other debuffing spells. When I think a fight is tough I move my druid slightly forward and cast one of the lightning storm (such as Returning Storm) spells because they are Foe AoE damage spells with chance to stun enemies. If they are weakened this will usually crit normal enemies. Note that many of the really good debuff/cc spells target fortitude, so weakening the enemy allows those spells to have a better effect.

 

What you're casting depends on the enemy composition. If they have spellcasters with cc you'll want to be able to focus them. So silent scream is useful. Cc also debuffs enemy resistances, mostly dexterity and deflection allowing your normal basic attacks to deal with the enemy. I don't really use high tier limited cast spells in normal encounters though.

[bigwillystyle]

 

Ciphers: Eye Strike, Mind Wave, Borrowed Insticts (though its not really good primarily for the debuff effect), Amblified Wave. Not really a class thats that much about debuffs but more about mind control and damage (and then suddenly at level 15 all about making the entire party unkillable with Defensive Mindweb).

 

 

Good list overall, nicely done.  For Cipher, Mind Wave is amazing against large packs with lots of folks behind the target.  

 

I would add: I enjoy Psychovampiric Shield for the -10 Resolve debuff, which gets you -20 Will defense.  This helps a lot of other spells that target Will to land.  When I play melee cipher, my opener is often Psychovampiric Shield / Attack / Mental Binding to paralyze.  

[Boeroer]

Empored Interdiction doesn't give a bonus to the weakening part by the way - only the dazing one. It's a bug that never gets fixed.

Besides that, Painful Interdiction is nice.

 

It's important (if you want the maximum effect of debuffs) that you buff your ACC before trying to apply debuffs. 

 

Because of that, my usual buffing/debuffing procedure is (if those chars/abilites are in the party, only a few examples):
 

Phase 1: Buffing ACC
- Priest casts Inspiring Radiance (+10 ACC stacks with everything)

- Fighter casts Disciplined Barrage

- Wiz casts Eldritch Aim

- Cipher casts Tactical Meld (+20 ACC which stacks with everything)

- Paladin with Coordinated Attacks & a marking weapon attacks an enemy whom a debuffer wants to hit later (+20 ACC which stack with everything).

- Paladin with Inspiring Liberation raises a debuffer's ACC by 10 (stacks with everything)

- Paladin with Sworn Enemy and Munacra Arret cast Swoen Enemy on the target he wants to charm
- Priest casts Devotions

- and so on...

 

Phase 2: Debuffing and/or CC

- Priest still casts Devotions

- Priest casts Painful Interdiction

- Wizard casts Chillfog or whatever debuff that fits

- Druid casts Returning Storm or whatever debuffing spell

- any char with high ACC casts Aspirant's Mark

- Cipher casts Phantom Foes (if he has focus, else he shoots with hightened ACC)

- and so on

 

Buffing other stats than ACC (like defenses or DR) can be done after that.

Only then do I start with damaging attacks. This way every fight - even dragons and bounties - become easy.

 

If you have good timing you don't need to wait with casting the debuffs until the ACC buffs finish: the ACC bonus counts if it hits you before you hit the enemy. That means that even if the Inspired Radiance hits you after your debuff spoell went off, but before it reaches the nemey, it counts for the hit roll.

So you don't lose as much time as you think. Debuffing with high ACC is great because it leads to a lot of crits which means *1.5 duration... which can spare you spells and a lot of hassle.

 

Some special tricks how you can raise a debuffers ACC to the sky so that he can then crit with his debuff, in this case the enemy is the Alpine Dragon:

 

A paladin with Coordinated Attacks (+10 ACC), a marking weapon (+10 ACC) casts Inspiring Liberation (+10 ACC) on a cipher and then attacks the dragon while a priest casts Inspiring Radiance (+10 ACC). The cipher casts Tactical Meld on the paladin (+20 ACC). The cipher now can hit the dragon with 60 bonus ACC, let's say with a cheap Whisper of Treason. Usually that means a crit. The Alpine Dragon gets charmed for over 20 secs (if your INT is good). By the way: charm is a hefty debuff. He could also have used Eyestrike or whatever.

 

Same game with a fighter with Disciplined Barrage and Charge, followed by Knockdown. It's very easy this way to cause prone on dragons - even if they have resistances. 3 Knockdowns are usually enough to keep the dragon down till it's dead (if you INT is good). A weapon with overbearing or stunning helps a lot of course - and also procs on dragons with such high ACC values - even upscaled dragons.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

For dragons, buff defenses (potions/scrolls/spells) and accuracy and then use Painful Interdiction, Venombloom, Envenomed Strike, Disintegrate, Plague of Insects. Then get a cup of coffee and the battle is won.

[limaxophobiacq]

Phase 2: Debuffing and/or CC

- Druid casts Returning Storm or whatever debuffing spell

 

This is a good post, though I wouldn't wait to cast Returning/Relentless Storm untill after buffs are cast since they re-check your accuracy and intelligence every time they hit, which makes them great spells to open encounters with immediately since they'll still take advantage of buffs cast later.

[AeonsLegend]

 

Phase 2: Debuffing and/or CC

- Druid casts Returning Storm or whatever debuffing spell

 

This is a good post, though I wouldn't wait to cast Returning/Relentless Storm untill after buffs are cast since they re-check your accuracy and intelligence every time they hit, which makes them great spells to open encounters with immediately since they'll still take advantage of buffs cast later.

 

 

I feel that if your party is just busy buffing they are more prone to get overwhelmed if the enemy is fast and then your defensive casts can be interrupted. When I started out I followed the buffing -> debuffing -> attacking route for normal encounters, but battles are won more quickly and cleanly by skipping buffing spells altogether. If anything only accuracy needs to be buffed.

[Raven Darkholme]

For longer fights on high level cipher I cast:

Heavy ranged shot for focus - Defensive mindweb - switch to melee for focus (dual bittercut) - time parasite - more focus gain - borrowed Instinct - if theres a dragon or similar disintegrate it, if not reaping knives.

From that point focus built is more than you can spend, cast whatever.

 

Only mentioned this since nobody posted about long fights in high level as far as I can see, otherwise I can recommend the other posts above.

[Boeroer]

 

Phase 2: Debuffing and/or CC

- Druid casts Returning Storm or whatever debuffing spell

 

This is a good post, though I wouldn't wait to cast Returning/Relentless Storm untill after buffs are cast since they re-check your accuracy and intelligence every time they hit, which makes them great spells to open encounters with immediately since they'll still take advantage of buffs cast later.

 

That is right. Spell with pulsing or returning hits like Chillfog, Relentless Storm and so on can be cast right away. Every pulse will be rolled with the actual accuracy of the caster. And some of them take forever to cast anyway - so when you finish them a priest might have cast Insp. Radiance and another buff in the meantime.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

I feel that if your party is just busy buffing they are more prone to get overwhelmed if the enemy is fast and then your defensive casts can be interrupted. When I started out I followed the buffing -> debuffing -> attacking route for normal encounters, but battles are won more quickly and cleanly by skipping buffing spells altogether. If anything only accuracy needs to be buffed.

 

This is true if:

- you run straigt into an encounter (no preparation time)

- for the generic trashmob fights (buffs too much fuzz - select all, pick atarget and autoattack )

- your level is too high compared to the enemies (it can't get better than crits, so why bother) and/or

- difficulty level is below PoTD (which is the same as the point above basically)

 

And it can be true if you have lots of squishies in your ranks that get knocked down quickly.

In those situations it can be better to start with disabling/CC and attacks right away.

 

But if you scout with your tank first (so that you're barely in range for ACC buffs like Insp. Radiance) and trigger the encounter so that most enemies will engage him first you will ahve enough time for ACC buffing and debuffing before you start attacking. As I said most of the casts can be done parallel with a slight shift in timing and not necessarily sequencially.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[mosspit]

If we consider debuff only, then my favorite with be using those that do not inflict the named cc like Blind. Cipher will have Psychovampiric Shield, Priest will have Shining Beacon. Those can be saved against but mobs will not be immune to them.

 

Since there is some deviation to buffs, I will always start with Crown of the Faithful due to its Int buff. It will provide more mileage for buffs (and debuffs) that come after. And since the AoE is quite small, you will have a greater chance to affect the most members at the start of battle.

 

If you need to chain buff/debuff, Potion of DAoM will also be good to start to make the buff/debuff period shorter.

[Oloorin]

On 10/21/2016 at 5:13 AM, Boeroer said:

This is true if:

- you run straigt into an encounter (no preparation time)

- for the generic trashmob fights (buffs too much fuzz - select all, pick atarget and autoattack )

- your level is too high compared to the enemies (it can't get better than crits, so why bother) and/or

- difficulty level is below PoTD (which is the same as the point above basically)

 

And it can be true if you have lots of squishies in your ranks that get knocked down quickly.

In those situations it can be better to start with disabling/CC and attacks right away.

 

But if you scout with your tank first (so that you're barely in range for ACC buffs like Insp. Radiance) and trigger the encounter so that most enemies will engage him first you will ahve enough time for ACC buffing and debuffing before you start attacking. As I said most of the casts can be done parallel with a slight shift in timing and not necessarily sequencially.

Only years later that I'm posting this, but figure it's better asking for clarification on your direct post than making an entirely new thread to ask about this.

I'm still finishing my playthrough and think it's on Normal diff but I play like it's on PoTD in terms of buff > debuff > nuke cycle.

Just wanted to ask - what do you mean by running straight into an encounter versus preparing? Does preparation involve sending  a forward scout to aggro, and the rest of the party buffing before the enemy even reach the frontline?

 

[Boeroer]

On 6/8/2022 at 8:50 AM, Oloorin said:

Just wanted to ask - what do you mean by running straight into an encounter versus preparing? Does preparation involve sending  a forward scout to aggro, and the rest of the party buffing before the enemy even reach the frontline?

I meant that some players tend to just start an encounter with letting the whole party do attacks and offensive spells right away - instead of buffing up first. In the cases I described above this indeed results in a fight that's over more quickly - because you didn't have to take the (real) time for buffing up - and the buffs didn't make a huge difference in the first place because the encounter was easy to begin with.

But as soon as fights become more demanding it is detrimental to start combat with all-in offensive actions right away.
Imo it's better to make some time and room for buffing up first (mostly accuracy but defense also matters of course).
Buying time can be done by using a scout or tank who seperates a bit from the party and starts combat - and then either lures enemies towards the party or just tanks them until the rest of the party buffed up.
Or it can be done with very fast buffers (like a support caster with high DEX and no armor) who can dish out a lot of buffs quickly - or both.
And/or you have somebody who starts the encounter with some impactful CC effect (mind control of a weak enemy in order to distract the other ones, a hard disable of a big group by a high accuracy disable... or just using summons) which would buy the buffing caster some time. 

If you have a very sturdy tank then the simplest option is to seperate from the party a bit and just initiate combat with that tank. Let the tank endure the first enemy attacks alone while you buff your party up - and only then go in with disables/debuffs and then attacks.

In easy fights however the time and planning you will invest for this are often not worth it. Especially because you will most likely have to pause the game a lot bc. of timing and positioning etc. - and then, even if the fight is over more quickly in "game-time" it will have taken a lot longer in real-time.
That's why a lot of players just do "select all, attack" later in the game because it's the fastest - or most "time-efficient" - way to overcome easy encounters, even if it's not the most resource-efficient way (in terms of spell uses and loss of health and injuries I mean).  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Boeroer

[Oloorin]

Perfect description of all the strategies and overview of the topic - as always Boeroer